Biden Drops the Hammer on Unvaccinated

[muichimotsu]

I don't have to drink the water, I don't have to travel. Not the same thing.

Yeah, except most people aren't affluent enough to just be able to get bottled water (which somehow doesn't have fluoride in it as a guarantee?) or be able to get everything delivered to them. It's cliche, but check your privilege.

 

[muichimotsu]

That does not answer the question why someone would waive away their medical rights if they were unvaccinated. That is dumb.

They waive priority if it is clear they are unvaccinated not because they have any legitimate reason, but because they think they know better. In which case...why even bother going to the hospital, because they clearly don't trust medical professionals...except when it suits them. The selfishness is the problem here

 

[Vylo]

Why would the unvaccinated sign the waiver? Mandated vaccinations are unethical in my opinion. Why not convince people that it is the best option instead of trying to force them to take it. What if in the future the government wants to put something in your body you don't want?

Because hospitals can't turn folks away normally.

 

[muichimotsu]

Your theory is all well and good, but in practice, Israel had the majority of people vaccinate, and the virus still spread rampantly. In fact, rate of spread after being highly vaccinated is higher than the rate of spread before vaccines were even available.

There are studies which indicate the vaccines may prevent some transmission, but a review of many studies suggesting that shows that it is widely unknown how effective it actually is. Moreover, it appears that reduction in transmission wanes considerably over time with the vaccines, again, with details still under investigation.

The truth here matters. For one, on a personal level, if you went from hiding in your house in March, to cheering on the local hockey team in June after your second Pfizer shot, it’s time to re-assess. Look at the recent UK REACT data: vaccinated people in mid-July were three times less likely than unvaccinated people to test positive for Covid-19. Great. But… they were almost twice as likely to test positive as unvaccinated people did just a month before, in mid-June! If you reduce your odds of infection by a factor of three with vaccination, but increase your risk of exposure by a factor of five, either due to rising prevalence or shifting your behaviors, you’re still more likely to catch a case of Covid-19 than if you had skipped the vaccine and stayed fixed in time. Put simply, regular high-risk exposures to SARS-CoV-2 can overwhelm a very good but imperfect vaccine.

Remarkably, the CDC is still proclaiming that vaccine breakthrough infections are rare - but when normal people hear that their barber, their cousin’s husband, and seemingly half the New York Yankees’ starters have experienced breakthrough infections, they might assume the CDC is lying.

We have made pariahs of the unvaccinated as menaces to the public good. Even if this might not be the most effective form of public health messaging, perhaps this made statistical sense, at least, when we believed the mRNA vaccines to reduce all infections (including asymptomatic) by some 90%. Coupled with limited data from a UK study which showed household contacts of someone with a vaccine breakthrough infection were about half as likely to develop covid-19 as contacts of an unvaccinated person who became infected, it was reasonable to estimate that vaccinated people were almost 20 times less likely to transmit SARS-CoV-2 than unvaccinated people. This assumption led to the CDC’s recommendation that vaccinated people could drop their masks.

Unfortunately, the times, they are a-changing. The CDC famously reversed course on masks for the vaccinated. Data has been mixed, but several recent reports suggest the viral loads of those with vaccine breakthrough infections are akin to the unvaccinated. A thorough study from Singapore showed that vaccinated cases dropped their viral load faster -- but viral loads were identical in days 1-5, when, logically, we might think most transmission takes place. Lacking a proper household transmission study post-delta, it’s simply not good science to assume the vaccinated spread less Covid-19 once they get infected.

From a societal perspective, is it reasonable to discriminate between the vaccinated and unvaccinated given this data? My second Pfizer shot was 7 months ago. An unvaccinated person without prior immunity is probably now only twice as likely to be infected as I am, but I can walk into a bar in New York City or Paris for a drink, and a VA hospital or Mayo Clinic for work — and they cannot.
...
We saw this in the UK, where deaths among the vaccinated went from “rare” to two-thirds of all delta variant deaths by July. We saw this in Israel, where literally no fully vaccinated people died of covid-19 for entire weeks in June, but by August over 60% of the severely ill were fully vaccinated.
...
The inconvenient truth is that neither natural immunity nor vaccines are likely to protect well enough, long enough, to shift this disease from pandemic to endemic and have it look the way most of us would prefer: partying like it’s 2019, and free of worry about hospital capacity. That, unfortunately, is probably a fantasy in the immediate future. So, too, is the idea that if we could only convince a few more stubborn vaccine hold-outs to get one set of shots that this will all be over and New Zealand can open its borders.


Let's Stop Pretending About the Covid-19 Vaccines | RealClearScience

This is a good article, which talks a) about how vaccines are effective and b) how there is a big disconnect from the pro-vaccine claims/messaging and the actual effectiveness.

I've never been "anti-vaxx", despite being labeled as such. I am, however, pro-truth, and the truth is that the vaccines have been greatly oversold and the messaging about them from those promoting them has not been honest.

Yes, we need to reduce the spread of Covid. As such, i still have never been in any public indoor setting for a prolonged (> 15 minutes) period of time, and i always mask and am very conscientious about social distancing). I am unvaccinated, but i know that i haven't spread the virus (i've had multiple negative tests for Covid as well as a negative antibody test). Meanwhile, several others on these forums are condemning the unvaccinated as spreading the disease, but admit that they have actually had Covid - which means they have been a vector in spread and an opportunity for mutation.

The reduction of spread with herd immunity assumed that it would be able to reduce viral load and such, but unfortunately the virus has mutated into a prevalent strain that is more transmissible even if you're vaccinated. Half the problem has been addressed with less hospitalization (high percentage doesn't mean high numbers quantitatively by necessity, because adding 50% to 1 leads to 2.)

You cannot know absolutely you have not spread, especially if you're unvaccinated, I seriously doubt the spread is exactly the same between vaccinated and unvaccinated and it isn't helping the situation when far more people that are unvaccinated also aren't wearing masks and doing basic preventative measures, thinking that natural immunity is preferable (which may be the case, but that's playing Russian roulette unnecessarily)

Not all variants have the same transmissibility, data suggested that with the original novel coronavirus, the vaccine made transmission far less likely, but then a bunch of anti vax plague rats treat this like the flu and pushed a variant out way sooner than it likely would have happened (because I'm pretty sure like with antibiotic resistance, we're getting viruses that can spread even if they aren't killing the vaccinated remotely because there's actual proper immunoresponse, they just behave more sneakily and get out through droplets and particles otherwise)

 

[muichimotsu]

You seem to be advocating for something that you won't model yourself. You want others to care more about others than they do themselves yet you don't seem to care about them more than yourself. The ethical thing to do is treat everyone that has Covid. It seems you are advocating to tell people with Covid they have to deal with it themselves and you really don't care if they die, hence all the insults toward them.

Do you care about these people at all?

There is not a contradiction in saying that you made your bed, you sleep in it and making pleas to actually get vaccinated and wear a mask, because otherwise you treat people's decisions like they don't matter and only focus on the consequences

The ethical thing is to nip this in the bud beforehand, but when you behave in an irresponsible way that has immediate short term consequences in the scale of the pandemic, this is not comparable to the dishonest equivocations of people with heart disease due to poor diet and exercise, because that is far more long term

If they genuinely think they can do better, how is it unethical to expect integrity from them?

This is about preserving society and a collective, this kind of "individualism" is damaging and antisocial and should not be encouraged remotely, but treated accordingly as damaging. It is not lacking compassion if you give someone prior warning on this and then follow through with the punishment anymore than it is cruel to establish reasonable boundaries for a child and then punish them when they break them.

I don't wish death on anyone, but I also am not going to be broken up over deaths that are based primarily, if not solely, on self destructive tendencies that don't respond to any attempts at correction. That's basic karma

 

[muichimotsu]

For one, COVID-19 vaccinations have killed more people
then all the other vaccines in the last 30 years combined.

https://www.citizensjournal.us/covi...han-all-other-fda-approved-vaccines-combined/
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potential links between COVID-19 vaccination and menstrual changes.
Item of Interest: NIH funds studies to assess potential effects of COVID-19 vaccination on menstruation
-

CDC: teens injected with COVID shots have 7.5 times more deaths, 15 times more disabilities, 44 times more hospitalizations than all FDA approved vaccines in 2021
CDC: teens injected with COVID shots have 7.5 times more deaths, 15 times more disabilities, 44 times more hospitalizations than all FDA approved vaccines in 2021

No one is saying they are 100% safe, but that the benefits outweigh the risks. Also, problem here is cherrypicking and inflating the stats in regards to a narrowed focus that ignores deaths from other factors unrelated to vaccines entirely. Are the levels of deaths from things that can even remotely be demonstrated as caused from vaccines more than all the car accidents in the last decade? All the flu deaths?

You're focusing on all the negative data so you can foment more paranoia and distrust while claiming that somehow YOUR sources aren't deceiving anyone or working on a biased narrative at all

 

[muichimotsu]

That is some nice sounding Marx-based rhetoric. However, attempting to shame people into your way of thinking went out of style a couple years ago.

When people don't even have shame, it's not about shaming them, it's about pointing out HYPOCRISY, which is not shaming as much as demanding integrity. Or do you just care about appearing right and not actually being right?

 

[muichimotsu]

Does that bother you?

Yes, because it's confirmation bias manifesting as intellectual arrogance rooted in, ironically, anti intellectual antagonism that thinks just because you have knowledge that you don't have wisdom while showing that same principle in their own behavior of poorly researched cherrypicked stats so they can continue to be willful children that should know better.

If a 3 year old behaved like these anti vaxxers are, we can forgive them and try to correct the behavior, but these are grown adults whose brains are supposed to be fully developed and have experience, yet they show more that they have no humility or introspection to realize they might be wrong in being so intransigent.

 

[muichimotsu]

The point (which you missed) was that choices have consequences. That's what someone was telling me. But it would appear that only some choices are viewed as choices.

Not all choices are equally valid, the consequences that come are going to happen, but not everyone should be treated with the same level of blame when some are taking the precautions and others are sitting on their hands like indolent juveniles and expecting everyone else to pick up the slack.

Problem with the emphasis on freedom above all else: it not only ignores basic security and welfare, but also doesn't really accept real responsibility except when it affects their social standing and otherwise, it's everyone else's fault, they're the "victim"

 

[muichimotsu]

So now these people who have been injected 3 or 4 times are just "data". How nice.
Small wonder more people are opting out.

You know who's also data in terms of assessment? Those who aren't even getting the 2 shot regiment, just stopping at 1 and being lazy. Even my fairly conservative leaning father thinks that's entirely stupid to not even take that precaution, but just do it half heartedly and expect people to not check records that you actually got the second shot.

You have people FALSIFYING records and acting like that's okay because they think this shot is bad, but will hypocritically claim that all the other vaccinations they're required to get are okay when they went through some hiccups as well (polio vaccine comes to mind)

Booster shots are a necessity with evolving viruses, but I'm skeptical you even acknowledge evolution as valid and will try to just frame this as "different" for viruses when their lifespan and scale of propagation is far different than most animals, only comparable to insects at best.

 

[JacksBratt]

Never claimed that, you clearly didn't read the full post, because I acknowledge they have money and that is where the funding is going. There isn't an immediate charge to people getting the vaccine, so it isn't some inconvenience and is actually aiding in accessibility to vital healthcare, something America does a very poor job at for the most part.

I didn't say you did. That was an honest question. Everyone gets so defensive here.

My point about Novavax is that it has gone through the proper research, development, Q A Q C and trials and studies and has been found to be a very safe and effective vaccine. No guinea pigs needed.
It's safe for newborns up to 100 year olds.

Why isn't it in the news?

 

[muichimotsu]

I didn't say you did. That was an honest question. Everyone gets so defensive here.

My point about Novavax is that it has gone through the proper research, development, Q A Q C and trials and studies and has been found to be a very safe and effective vaccine. No guinea pigs needed.
It's safe for newborns up to 100 year olds.

Why isn't it in the news?

Because there's a fundamental problem of oversaturation in media overall, you cannot rationally expect everyone to be in the know about everything that you think is important

There's also problems of production and distribution of this particular vaccine that are likely affecting how much it can be promoted, since if you have this great thing, but you can't get it out to the world, then it's like trying to grasp at the moon with your hand, thinking that because you can see it, it must be within reach

 

[Vylo]

I didn't say you did. That was an honest question. Everyone gets so defensive here.

My point about Novavax is that it has gone through the proper research, development, Q A Q C and trials and studies and has been found to be a very safe and effective vaccine. No guinea pigs needed.
It's safe for newborns up to 100 year olds.

Why isn't it in the news?

I mean, it is? There are tons of articles about it.

 

[Hank77]

Do you know Rev. Jesse Jackson or his wife? They both got Covid and ended up hospitalized even though fully vaxxed.

Source?
Jacqueline Jackson has not been vaccinated, longtime family spokesman Frank Watkins previously said. He declined to elaborate.

Jesse Jackson received his first dose of the COVID-19 vaccine in January at a hospital on Chicago's South Side.
Jesse Jackson in Rehab Facility, Wife Moved From ICU as COVID Battle Continues

It had been 7 or 8 mths since he was vaccinated and he has Parkinson's Disease so his overall immune system may be very weak.

 

[whatbogsends]

The reduction of spread with herd immunity assumed that it would be able to reduce viral load and such, but unfortunately the virus has mutated into a prevalent strain that is more transmissible even if you're vaccinated. Half the problem has been addressed with less hospitalization (high percentage doesn't mean high numbers quantitatively by necessity, because adding 50% to 1 leads to 2.)

You cannot know absolutely you have not spread, especially if you're unvaccinated, I seriously doubt the spread is exactly the same between vaccinated and unvaccinated and it isn't helping the situation when far more people that are unvaccinated also aren't wearing masks and doing basic preventative measures, thinking that natural immunity is preferable (which may be the case, but that's playing Russian roulette unnecessarily)

I tested negative for antibodies. I've never had Covid, which is how i know i haven't spread, unless you're suggesting that people spread without ever having been infected.

Not all variants have the same transmissibility, data suggested that with the original novel coronavirus, the vaccine made transmission far less likely, but then a bunch of anti vax plague rats treat this like the flu and pushed a variant out way sooner than it likely would have happened (because I'm pretty sure like with antibiotic resistance, we're getting viruses that can spread even if they aren't killing the vaccinated remotely because there's actual proper immunoresponse, they just behave more sneakily and get out through droplets and particles otherwise)

Delta came out in India before the vaccine was even made available, so spare us the unvaccinated hatred - it's not grounded in reality.

 

[muichimotsu]

I tested negative for antibodies. I've never had Covid, which is how i know i haven't spread, unless you're suggesting that people spread without ever having been infected.



Delta came out in India before the vaccine was even made available, so spare us the unvaccinated hatred - it's not grounded in reality.

The unvaccinated are not helping with anti science, anti intellectual populism that is creating a cult of willful ignorance.

When you have the information and just toss it out because you want to "go back to normal", it smacks of entitlement and privilege that doesn't like inconvenience and being forced to confront systemic problems that made this pandemic a problem when it should've been able to be addressed by a concerted and collaborative effort of a people that are supposed to be unified, yet seem to be eating each other alive

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The problem is that there are too many people needing care and not everyone is getting it. People are dying of unrelated issues because the hospitals are so overrun with people who (probably) would not be there if they had made one very simple free choice. If it was like normal where hospitals were not overrun that would be one thing, but since they are everyone's care suffers and in some cases people do not get it on time.

The solution is to figure out how to care for everyone, not send some home to die.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

yes, because once they are stable does not mean that if they are removed from a hospital setting they are likely to survive.

I have no idea what you are saying here.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I tested negative for antibodies. I've never had Covid, which is how i know i haven't spread, unless you're suggesting that people spread without ever having been infected.



Delta came out in India before the vaccine was even made available, so spare us the unvaccinated hatred - it's not grounded in reality.

It may have predated the vaccine that does not change the fact it has been found to be effective against it.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

that respond is because there is NOT enough people to care for the people who need it ( even if their reason for care has nothing to do with co-vid. God also gave us a brain to use.

Where is God helping this situation? Obviously the brains he gave us are not solving the problem.