One Reason to Reject Amill Doctrine

[Jamdoc]

Satan held the power of death until sin was fully and finally paid for at the cross and the grave was defeated 3 days later. He also held a legitimate seat of accusation before the life, death and resurrection of Christ. Through Christ's victorious ministry Satan was stripped of his power and authority. As a result, he was banished from heaven. His charges carried no authority anymore because man's debt was paid in full. Since his casting down to the earth he has to point the finger direct at the elect (and hope they receive the false charges). God will not hear these accusations. The blood has covered all our sin - forever.

Satan has lost his previous ability to point the finger at God's people before the throne of God that Adam gave him. That position is gone forever. The blood of Jesus now pleads our cause. Sin and death is now defeated! The grave is defeated! The devil is a defeated foe! Satan is banished from heaven after Christ ascended to the throne. Scripture shows the casting out of Satan with the resulting / accompanying enlightenment of the nations with salvation.

In John 12:31-33 Christ predicted, shortly before He defeated the power of Satan at the cross, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

Here was the time of his casting down - after the cross. Here was the time of the unblinding of the nations (the Gentiles). Here Christ gloriously dethroned Satan from his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven. Satan’s movement, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.

Revelation 12:5-11 says: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Satan's defeat came after the resurrection. See the blue highlight. Here is when he got his eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

Revelation 12:5-11 and Revelation 20 describe the overthrow of Satan after the resurrection. The casting of Satan and his minions out of heaven toward earth John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:5-11 correlates with him being cast into the abyss (Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20). The abyss is a place of restraint.

Revelation 20:1-7 parallels Revelation 12: "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."

This is the authority He secured through His resurrection. He cast Satan out of heaven and then restrained him with spiritual chains so that the Gospel could enlighten the nations. Satan's defeat came after the resurrection. See the blue highlight.

and you still cannot address how Satan is god of this world if he's unable to deceive the nations anymore.
your standard is excessively low.
we deal with a God that deals with absolutes. Either for Him or against Him, either perfect or wicked, either heaven or hell, there are no in betweens.
But your entire doctrine rests on an "in between" where Satan just has less deception of the nations.

 

[sovereigngrace]

and you still cannot address how Satan is god of this world if he's unable to deceive the nations anymore.
your standard is excessively low.
we deal with a God that deals with absolutes. Either for Him or against him, either perfect or wicked, either heaven or hell, there are no in betweens.
But your entire doctrine rests on an "in between" where Satan just has less deception of the nations.

It is frustrating engaging in serious debate with most Premils on Bible discussion forums because their posts are normally devoid of Scripture and consist of just private opinion. Some give references, but refuse to quote the actual text being mentioned, knowing that the text does not in any way support Premil. If scriptural text is quoted it is normally Revelation 20, the text whereby all Scripture is understood in their school. This is a very questionable foundation to ascertain what is right and what is wrong. Amils use the full gamut of Scripture to establish their position and by which they understand Revelation 20. This is totally inadmissible when it comes to infallible proof, water-tight evidence, solid hermeneutics and trustworthy interpretation.

As much as you are determined to elevate the power of Satan, I reject it. Amils reject it. According to the NT, Satan is a defeated foe since the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

He is not the god of my world. He has no authority over me. I refuse to give him that. Scripture, rather, gives me (as a believer) much authority over him. The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of this victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. God has entrusted power and authority to the Church in this intra-Advent period that the devil cannot in any way thwart. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is torn down.

Jesus said in Revelation 1:17-18, “I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (hades) and of death.”

Since the resurrection, Christ reigns supreme over all His enemies from His throne in heaven. This rule happening only after Christ triumphed over His enemies at the cross and gloriously rose from the dead.

Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

Christ is reigning over the demonic realm.

Tony Evans states: “On the cross, Jesus Christ deactivated, dismantled and disarmed Satan’s rule over sin and death (Colossians 2:13-15). God gave the ultimate authority to His Son. He has placed all things in subjection to Jesus.”

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt, Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds.

1 John 4:4 is not a cliché it is a fact: “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, (which is Jesus), than he that is in the world (Satan).”

There is a power within us that enables us to rule over the realm of darkness. Men are either “in Christ” or “in the world.” If you are in Christ then there is a power within you that is stronger than the devil and the kingdom of darkness.

It is notable what Christ said, to the disciples in Luke 10:19, “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

Please note there are 2 powers at work here. There is “the power of the enemy” and then there is the “power” that Jesus gives His disciples. And guess whose power is abundantly more powerful? Jesus power!

Christians operate in the spiritual authority of Christ. He has given us power over the demonic realm of Satan; we therefore have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon our lives. So, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is assuredly bound.
1 John 5:18: “he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him. That is the good news of New Testament age we live in.

You have to realize the Church is a conquering spiritual body overcoming Satan everywhere she faithful shines the truth. Premil always seems negative and defeatist - lauding the strength and power of Satan all the time. You will see this in discussions like this. Unfortunately, is it normally left to Amils to highlight the victorious nature of Christ's current reign over all His enemies and the delegated

 

[jeffweedaman]

and you still cannot address how Satan is god of this world if he's unable to deceive the nations anymore.
your standard is excessively low.
we deal with a God that deals with absolutes. Either for Him or against him, either perfect or wicked, either heaven or hell, there are no in betweens.
But your entire doctrine rests on an "in between" where Satan just has less deception of the nations.

Just because the people of the world are more predisposed to satans energy doesnt mean he is not defeated.

It is God who sends the deluding influence upon the world who refuse to obey and embrace the truth that is in Jesus alone. I believe God releases satan to achieve that end, that they may be judged.


2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.


11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

 

[chad kincham]

I’m sorry but that’s not true.
Mathetes (The Epistle of Mathetes), Hermas (The Shepherd of Hermas), Clement of Rome, The Didache, Barnabas, Irenaeus, and Hegesippus were all Amillennial.

That’s absolutely not true.

Barnabas and the early church taught the sabbath-millennium, that God took six days to create everything- instead of the split-second He could have made everything in - as the prophetical foreshadow of there being six thousand years, or days, from Adam to the return of Jesus, with the thousand year millennium reign being the seventh day.

This is found in the epistle of Barnabas, chapter 15.

Barnabas 15:3
Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And
God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the
seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.

Barnabas 15:5
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son
shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall
judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the
stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.

 

[DavidPT]

It has to do with the appearing of the Lord in all his glory. His reward is with him and this reward is realized in a twinkling of an eye whether good or Bad.
See my last post to you.

As to this reward you are referring to, which I take you to mean the following for one---Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be---though there are some Premils that only apply that to the saved, I'm not one of those Premils that do. This verse right here is probably the best verse Amils have in their favor proving Amil rather than Premil. Why? Because the text indicates that His reward is already with Him when He returns, and that He going to give every man according as his work shall be, which has to include both the saved and unsaved.

If we then throw in a thousand years here, what about any works involving the remaining mortals during the thousand years? How does He apply Revelation 22:12 to them as well since He couldn't possibly fulfill that verse twice? Is He going to leave sometime during the thousand years then be seen coming yet again, His reward again being with Him, except this time it is regards to those during the thousand years and any works involving that period of time? Though I do see a verse like this supporting Amil better than Premil, there are still verses I see supporting Premil better than Amil, one of them being Luke 22:30 that I recently brought up. That verse makes zero sense per Amil. Per Premil it does at least make some kind of sense.

 

[Jamdoc]

It is frustrating engaging in serious debate with most Premils on Bible discussion forums because their posts are normally devoid of Scripture and consist of just private opinion. Some give references, but refuse to quote the actual text being mentioned, knowing that the text does not in any way support Premil. If scriptural text is quoted it is normally Revelation 20, the text whereby all Scripture is understood in their school. This is a very questionable foundation to ascertain what is right and what is wrong. Amils use the full gamut of Scripture to establish their position and by which they understand Revelation 20. This is totally inadmissible when it comes to infallible proof, water-tight evidence, solid hermeneutics and trustworthy interpretation.

As much as you are determined to elevate the power of Satan, I reject it. Amils reject it. According to the NT, Satan is a defeated foe since the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

He is not the god of my world. He has no authority over me. I refuse to give him that. Scripture, rather, gives me (as a believer) much authority over him. The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of this victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. God has entrusted power and authority to the Church in this intra-Advent period that the devil cannot in any way thwart. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is torn down.

Jesus said in Revelation 1:17-18, “I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (hades) and of death.”

Since the resurrection, Christ reigns supreme over all His enemies from His throne in heaven. This rule happening only after Christ triumphed over His enemies at the cross and gloriously rose from the dead.

Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

Christ is reigning over the demonic realm.

Tony Evans states: “On the cross, Jesus Christ deactivated, dismantled and disarmed Satan’s rule over sin and death (Colossians 2:13-15). God gave the ultimate authority to His Son. He has placed all things in subjection to Jesus.”

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt, Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds.

1 John 4:4 is not a cliché it is a fact: “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, (which is Jesus), than he that is in the world (Satan).”

There is a power within us that enables us to rule over the realm of darkness. Men are either “in Christ” or “in the world.” If you are in Christ then there is a power within you that is stronger than the devil and the kingdom of darkness.

It is notable what Christ said, to the disciples in Luke 10:19, “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

Please note there are 2 powers at work here. There is “the power of the enemy” and then there is the “power” that Jesus gives His disciples. And guess whose power is abundantly more powerful? Jesus power!

Christians operate in the spiritual authority of Christ. He has given us power over the demonic realm of Satan; we therefore have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon our lives. So, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is assuredly bound.
1 John 5:18: “he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him. That is the good news of New Testament age we live in.

You have to realize the Church is a conquering spiritual body overcoming Satan everywhere she faithful shines the truth. Premil always seems negative and defeatist - lauding the strength and power of Satan all the time. You will see this in discussions like this. Unfortunately, is it normally left to Amils to highlight the victorious nature of Christ's current reign over all His enemies and the delegated

I do it because:
1. I don't think of you as a baby that needs to be spoonfed, I can refer to scripture and I assume that you know the verses I'm talking about without citing them and quoting them directly. I hate spoonfeeding.
2. I want to keep replies shorter and not do walls of text. I don't want to read most of your reply because I'm not looking to read a novel.

 

[jeffweedaman]

As to this reward you are referring to, which I take you to mean the following for one---Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be---though there are some Premils that only apply that to the saved, I'm not one of those Premils that do. This verse right here is probably the best verse Amils have in their favor proving Amil rather than Premil. Why? Because the text indicates that His reward is already with Him when He returns, and that He going to give every man according as his work shall be, which has to include both the saved and unsaved.

Yes David , that is what I am meaning.

[ Quote David ] If we then throw in a thousand years here, what about any works involving the remaining mortals during the thousand years? [end Quote]

No reason to throw in a thousand years here. The ball game is already over. The ungodly who witness the second coming will not live to see anther age. No ungodly can see God coming in all his glory and live .


Matt 16
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what good will it do a person if he gains the whole world, but forfeits his soul? Or what will a person give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every person according to his deeds.




28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”


The Son of man was indeed seen coming in his kingdom at his first coming and some took up their cross and followed him. This will continue until the day he comes in the great glory of his Father with the reward and repayment of every man

 

[Jamdoc]

Just because the people of the world are more predisposed to satans energy doesnt mean he is not defeated.

It is God who sends the deluding influence upon the world who refuse to obey and embrace the truth that is in Jesus alone. I believe God releases satan to achieve that end, that they may be judged.


2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.


11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

The standard for Satan being bound and deceiving the nations no more to me, is that Satan has no activity in the world for 1000 years. That things like Islam and Atheism no longer exist.
that is not current reality.

 

[DavidPT]

2. I want to keep replies shorter and not do walls of text. I don't want to read most of your reply because I'm not looking to read a novel.

This is where SG is not doing some others any favors if mainly the only ones willing to read some of those lengthy posts in their entirety are those that already agree with him.

 

[jeffweedaman]

The standard for Satan being bound and deceiving the nations no more to me, is that Satan has no activity in the world for 1000 years. That things like Islam and Atheism no longer exist.
that is not current reality.

People are sinners not because they know satan personally.

 

[sovereigngrace]

That’s absolutely not true.

Barnabas and the early church taught the sabbath-millennium, that God took six days to create everything- instead of the split-second He could have made everything in - as the prophetical foreshadow of there being six thousand years, or days, from Adam to the return of Jesus, with the thousand year millennium reign being the seventh day.

This is found in the epistle of Barnabas, chapter 15.

Barnabas 15:3
Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And
God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the
seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.

Barnabas 15:5
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son
shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall
judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the
stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.

The fact you sidestep every rebuttal of your position is testimony that it does not abide scrutiny. You simply put your trust in Thomas Ice you has little credibility with most Bible-based evangelicals.

One of the most thorough researches on the Epistle of Barnabas comes from Premillenarian historian D. H. Kromminga in his book Millennium in the Church. In it he gives lengthy consideration to the eschatological position of Barnabas. Kromminga emphatically concludes that he was not a Chiliast but was in fact an Amillennialist. He acknowledges: "Now, it would seem, that this argumentation would land Barnabas right in the lap of the millennium as a final period of this world’s history. He is perfectly aware of this and does not at all shun this consequence. However, he explains the statement that God rested on the seventh day, as follows: “this meaneth, when His Son, coming, shall destroy the time (of the wicked man) and judge the ungodly and change the sun and the moon and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day.” And the fact should not escape our attention, that in this chapter Barnabas links the notion of the rest with both the seventh and the eighth day."

He continues: "He seems to be of the opinion that there will be a seventh world period all right, but that period will be identical with the perfection of the eternal state. There can be no doubt about the identity of his seventh and his eighth day. The day of rest that is coming is one and the same day, viewed from 2 different aspects. From the viewpoint of continuity the great world–sabbath is a seventh day; but from the viewpoint of discontinuity it is the eighth, beyond and outside the present world–week. The future state is the last reckoning from creation; it is new, because of sin and redemption. This is the simplest meaning which I can discover in Barnabas’s words; but this is plain and pure Amillennialism."

Whilst Barnabas was not a Chiliast you can easily see how his 6 day/6,000 years theory opened up the door to the conclusion that the 7th day will also be 1,000 years long. Even though most of the early writers considered the 7th day as eternal, the whole basis of the idea of a millennial week was fraught will many factual discrepancies, human speculations and theological contradictions. A study of the early fathers will see that this faulty concept inevitably led to some embracing Chiliasm.

Stanley J. Grenz writes in The Millennial Maze: “The creation-day world-age theory that Justin and others employed did not necessarily lead to the materially oriented premillennialism of Irenaeus. This is exemplified by a work that probably predates the early apologist … the Epistle of Barnabas.”

Alan Patrick Boyd says in his master’s thesis presented to Dallas Theological Seminary (1977) “A Dispensational Premillennial Analysis of the Eschatology of the Post-Apostolic Fathers” and particularly his study of the Epistle of Barnabas:

It is: “In the light of the argument of the passage, can one conclude that the author (Barnabas) was a premillennarian? Probably not, for the following reasons. First of all, one must realize that a belief in six millennia of world history in no way obligates one to posit a seventh millennium in world history. In other words, the most modern scholarship can do is to assume that the Seventh Day, in the writer's thought, is a millennium since there is no prima facie evidence for it. One must not assume the part (six millennia) for the whole (seven millennia). Secondly, the concept of ‘rest from creation’ is given within the chronological framework of the second advent (15.5) and the beginning of the Eighth Day (15.8)” (p. 104, 105)

He adds: “Therefore, the Eighth Day can be said to begin at the Second Advent. In other words, the Seventh Day is eschatologically the beginning of the Eighth Day. Therefore, there is no interval (millennial or otherwise) between the Seventh and Eighth Days” (p. 105).

He continues: “The whole point of the chapter is that the Eighth Day is the acceptable Sabbath. In the light of this, the seventh Day plays no appreciable role. If the Seventh Day were a millennium that millennium is insignificant” (p. 105).

He explains: “In the light of this, it seems best to understand the Eighth Day as eternity, and since the Seventh Day is synonymous with the Eighth, the Seventh Day would also be eternity” (p. 105, 106).

He states: “In the light of the unity of the Seventh and Eighth Days, if a millennium were to exist, it would only be the threshold to, but within, eternity. It would be no interval between the present age and the eternal state (BOYD'S FOOTNOTE- this seems to be similar to Justin Martyr’s thought)” (p. 106).

He says: “In conclusion then, it seems best to conclude that Barnabas was not a premillennarian. The existence of an eschatological Millennium in the author’s thought can only be an assumption of modern scholarship” (p. 106).

He concludes: “…the sanctification of the Seventh Day, is not presently being fulfilled, but will be fulfilled when: 1) Christians are justified; 2) Christians are resurrected and rule the earth, 3) there is no more sin; 4) there is a new universe; 5) God causes everything to rest; and 6) God makes the beginning of the Eighth Day, i. e. – when God begins another world” (pp. 103-104).

 

[sovereigngrace]

I do it because:
1. I don't think of you as a baby that needs to be spoonfed, I can refer to scripture and I assume that you know the verses I'm talking about without citing them and quoting them directly. I hate spoonfeeding.
2. I want to keep replies shorter and not do walls of text. I don't want to read most of your reply because I'm not looking to read a novel.

Amils believe Scripture is solid food, not baby food. It how we prove or disprove anything. Your private interpretation is inadmissible if unsupported by the sacred text. Romans 4:3 instructs us, "For what saith the Scripture?"

We build Scripture upon Scripture in order to piece God’s truth together. We embrace the full gamut of Holy Writ. We do not limit our understanding of a future time-line to one chapter or one book. That would be insane.

Jesus said in Matthew 4:4: “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord.”

Interpreting a text to the exclusion of other relevant Scripture is censured here. Imposing your bias school of thought on a Scripture text is wrong. That is private interpretation. It should be supported by other clear and repeated Scriptures. After all, there is a harmony to all truth. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. If we employ this interpretive rule, I believe, one cannot but arrive at any other conclusion than the coming of Christ is climactic and ushers in eternity.

2 Corinthians 13:1 highlights a divine evidential imperative, which if ignored will bring Bible students into all forms of false teaching. It states, “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”

This important principle was decreed of God throughout the Old Testament in order to corroborate evidence in the case of witnesses - to prove matters of evidence. It is also presented in the New Testament time as the criteria for establishing truth. 1 Corinthians 2:13 says, “the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

God expects us to compare Scripture with Scripture – the spiritual with the spiritual. Scripture is the supreme and absolute means for interpreting other Scripture.

The fact that you have no Scripture to support your claims shows that your position is bereft of a solid foundation.

 

[Jamdoc]

People are sinners not because they know satan personally.

Correct, but without Satan's influence I don't think Islam would be able to stand.

 

[Jamdoc]

Amils believe Scripture is solid food, not baby food. It how we prove or disprove anything. Your private interpretation is inadmissible if unsupported by the sacred text. Romans 4:3 instructs us, "For what saith the Scripture?"

We build Scripture upon Scripture in order to piece God’s truth together. We embrace the full gamut of Holy Writ. We do not limit our understanding of a future time-line to one chapter or one book. That would be insane.

Jesus said in Matthew 4:4: “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord.”

Interpreting a text to the exclusion of other relevant Scripture is censured here. Imposing your bias school of thought on a Scripture text is wrong. That is private interpretation. It should be supported by other clear and repeated Scriptures. After all, there is a harmony to all truth. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. If we employ this interpretive rule, I believe, one cannot but arrive at any other conclusion than the coming of Christ is climactic and ushers in eternity.

2 Corinthians 13:1 highlights a divine evidential imperative, which if ignored will bring Bible students into all forms of false teaching. It states, “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”

This important principle was decreed of God throughout the Old Testament in order to corroborate evidence in the case of witnesses - to prove matters of evidence. It is also presented in the New Testament time as the criteria for establishing truth. 1 Corinthians 2:13 says, “the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

God expects us to compare Scripture with Scripture – the spiritual with the spiritual. Scripture is the supreme and absolute means for interpreting other Scripture.

The fact that you have no Scripture to support your claims shows that your position is bereft of a solid foundation.

as with the last time, I did support my position with scripture and you just said it was "clear as mud" and ignored it anyway since it didn't conform to your view.
just as you continually ignore 2 Corinthians 4:4

I just don't want to make walls of text, and I assume you have a bible and know what I'm referring to.

There's no scripture that talks about Islam, and that is one of my primary evidences of reality not lining up with amillennialist doctrine, but rather supporting premillennialist doctrine of a world that continually gets worse until the second coming of Christ.
if your interpretation of the bible doesn't line up with reality, then what use is it?
interpretations of the bible that don't line up with reality is the chief weapon an Atheist has for disagreeing with the entire bible.
Reality conforming to an interpretation of the bible is on the other hand, great support for the truth of the bible.

For instance, the bible predicts a war between Turkey, Russia, Iran and others, vs Israel, with no superpowers defending Israel, only a few verbal objections.

For this to come true, Russia, Turkey, and Iran would all need to form an alliance and be in agreement on their position on Israel, and the countries that support Israel in the past would need to either be not strong enough to do anything about it, or unwilling to do anything aside from lip service in support of Israel.

what we've seen over the last decade are Russia, Turkey, and Iran forming relationships to each other and southern Arab states normalizing relationships with Israel but not forming military alliances with Israel, and the relationship between the US and Israel cooling off.
That's conforming to the world that the bible predicts exists before Ezekiel 38 and 39.
I am not saying that the bible should conform to the world but rather that through prophecy we can watch the world conform to the bible.

 

[DavidPT]

Yes David , that is what I am meaning.

[ Quote David ] If we then throw in a thousand years here, what about any works involving the remaining mortals during the thousand years? [end Quote]

No reason to throw in a thousand years here. The ball game is already over. The ungodly who witness the second coming will not live to see anther age. No ungodly can see God coming in all his glory and live .


Matt 16
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what good will it do a person if he gains the whole world, but forfeits his soul? Or what will a person give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every person according to his deeds.




28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”


The Son of man was indeed seen coming in his kingdom at his first coming and some took up their cross and followed him. This will continue until the day he comes in the great glory of his Father with the reward and repayment of every man

Can't you see what you are doing here, though? You have an answer for one thing but not an answer for something else as well, in this case meaning an answer for Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 and how that supports Amil rather than Premil instead.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, regardless whether this should be taken literally or not, they only get to do this for 24 hours or less, or maybe even for only a twinkling of an eye since some of you seem to think that is being applied to other events as well, events not even mentioned in that passage involving a twinkling of an eye?

 

[sovereigngrace]

as with the last time, I did support my position with scripture and you just said it was "clear as mud" and ignored it anyway since it didn't conform to your view.
just as you continually ignore 2 Corinthians 4:4

I just don't want to make walls of text, and I assume you have a bible and know what I'm referring to.

There's no scripture that talks about Islam, and that is one of my primary evidences of reality not lining up with amillennialist doctrine, but rather supporting premillennialist doctrine of a world that continually gets worse until the second coming of Christ.
if your interpretation of the bible doesn't line up with reality, then what use is it?
interpretations of the bible that don't line up with reality is the chief weapon an Atheist has for disagreeing with the entire bible.
Reality conforming to an interpretation of the bible is on the other hand, great support for the truth of the bible.

I showed you the meaning of 2 Corinthians 4:4 (in great detail) and you again avoided it. I showed other supporting Scripture, and you again avoided it. The reader can look back on post after post and thread after thread and observe how numerous Amil arguments are totally avoided. That is because the Bible cannot be disputed.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The standard for Satan being bound and deceiving the nations no more to me, is that Satan has no activity in the world for 1000 years. That things like Islam and Atheism no longer exist.
that is not current reality.

The Bible makes general sweeping statements regarding the darkened Gentiles as a whole before Christ came. They "were without Christ ... aliens from the commonwealth of Israel ... strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" before the First Advent, "but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Through the sinless life, atoning death, and glorious first resurrection, the light shone upon the darkened Gentiles. They are now without excuse!

This is not a difficult biblical truth to grasp - if you do not have a theological agenda.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Can't you see what you are doing here, though? You have an answer for one thing but not an answer for something else as well, in this case meaning an answer for Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 and how that supports Amil rather than Premil instead.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, regardless whether this should be taken literally or not, they only get to do this for 24 hours or less, or maybe even for only a twinkling of an eye since some of you seem to think that is being applied to other events as well, events not even mentioned in that passage involving a twinkling of an eye?

I rebutted your claims in: One Reason to Reject Amill Doctrine

 

[Jamdoc]

I showed you the meaning of 2 Corinthians 4:4 (in great detail) and you again avoided it. I showed other supporting Scripture, and you again avoided it. The reader can look back on post after post and thread after thread and observe how numerous Amil arguments are totally avoided. That is because the Bible cannot be disputed.

Try being concise and it might not be avoided.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Try being concise and it might not be avoided.

I will respond as I wish, not as you demand. Amils become accustomed to avoidance, whether their posts are long or short. I wonder why? Amils are attracted to the meat of the Word rather than the milk.