Hebrews says that God's new covenant nullified the old

[Guojing]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

your "But now" division (Paulinian) = AD 50-58
Luke - 57-60+ ... Acts - 57-62+ ... Hebrews - c. 67.

James - c. 47-8.
Matthew - c. 40-60+
John - c. 40-65+ Revelation - mid to late 60s.
1 Peter - spring 65.
What is the "Robinson Redating of the New Testament"?
lastdayspast.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Arthur-T.-Robinson-Redated-New-Testament-Chronology.doc

A study of the word Age, in the Gospel of the Kingdom,
says this good news ends when Thy Kingdom comes.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming.YLT
Matthew 6:13 And mayest Thou not lead us to temptation, but deliver us from the evil, because Thine is the reign, and the power, and the glory — to the ages. Amen.YLT
Matthew 13:22 And that sown toward the thorns, this is he who is hearing the word, and the anxiety of this age, and the deceitfulness of the riches, do choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.YLT
Matthew 13:49 so shall it be in the full end of the age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,YLT
1 Peter 1:23-25 being begotten again, not out of seed corruptible, but incorruptible, through a word of God — living and remaining — to the age; 24 because all flesh [is] as grass, and all glory of man as flower of grass; wither did the grass, and the flower of it fell away, 25 and the saying of the Lord doth remain — to the age; and this is the saying that was proclaimed good news to you.YLT

Matthew 13:10-12 And the Disciples having come near, said to Him, ‘Wherefore in similes dost thou speak to them?’ 11 And He answering said to them that — ‘To you it hath been given to know the secrets of the Reign of the Heavens, and to these it hath not been given, 12 for whoever hath, it shall be given to him, and he shall have overabundance, and whoever hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken from him.YLT

There has been an interruption of the prophetic program, to usher in the mystery program, as stated by Paul in Ephesians 3:1-9

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 

[Guojing]

That's not what I said, if this is how you read my posts, it must be how you read the bible also.

I asked you "Does an unbeliever need to believe the gospel first, before he can be born again?"

You replied with

Peter wasn't finished preaching yet, and Cornelius and those with him received the Holy Spirit. Based on this example, I would deduce it is not always necessary.

it's what happened in scripture.

That is what you said correct?

 

[Guojing]

Paul is clear that faith is man's access to God's gift of salvation.

So faith is the saving agent from man's side of the breach. A man's faith, when coupled with God's grace, ... yields reconciliation and relationship with God.

From this relationship, Godly works flow.

Paul is also clear about this.

That he uses the hypothetical example of faith without works to teach these truths doesn't mean that the hypothetical can be actual ...

Since you believe if there is no works, there cannot be faith, can one conclude that you define faith to include works?

 

[Guojing]

It has always been Faith/Belief coupled with God's Mercy and Grace that yielded reconciliation and relationship with God. From Abel to the present. This has always been the Gospel of Christ.

Zacharias and Simeon and Anna all knew this because they "Believed God and it was accounted to them as righteousness".

While the mainstream preachers of their time had God's instructions, but didn't "believe" them.

Just because the preachers of their time didn't "Believe" God, doesn't make the "Faith" HE promoted void. As Paul tells us.

Rom. 3: 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Do you think there was a time where works were required to show that one's faith is real, as James would say in James 2?

If Noah believed there will be a flood, but did not do the work of building an ark, can his belief save him?

If Abel believe in God but offered plant sacrifice like Cain, would his belief save him?

 

[RDKirk]

If Noah believed there will be a flood, but did not do the work of building an ark, can his belief save him?

If a fire alarm sounds, and you believe that a fire alarm means there is a fire, you will take action to avoid being caught in the fire.

If Noah believed there would be a flood, he would build the ark, unless he was mentally handicapped.

If Noah had the capacity to build an ark, but did not build the ark, it would indicate he did not believe there would be a flood.

 

[Guojing]

If a fire alarm sounds, and you believe that a fire alarm means there is a fire, you will take action to avoid being caught in the fire.

If Noah believed there would be a flood, he would build the ark, unless he was mentally handicapped.

If Noah had the capacity to build an ark, but did not build the ark, it would indicate he did not believe there would be a flood.

You are most definitely correct, faith required works in time past for salvation.

But now, what do you think Romans 4:5 is saying for us?

If we believe in the gospel found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, but show no works at all after that, is our belief reckoned for righteousness, according to that verse?

What does the literal reading of Romans 4:5 tell you?

 

[RDKirk]

You are most definitely correct, faith required works in time past for salvation.

But now, what do you think Romans 4:5 is saying for us?

If we believe in the gospel found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, but show no works at all after that, is our belief reckoned for righteousness, according to that verse?

What does the literal reading of Romans 4:5 tell you?

As I've said before, Paul has explicitly defined the term "work" as used in this argument in Romans. This definition is specifically for this soteriological argument. His use of the word "work" in other places, or the use of the word "work" by other writers does not necessarily carry this same definition:

Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation. -- Romans 4:4

Paul tells us in this soteriological argument that the person who does work with the expectation of creating an obligation to be paid the worth of his labor.

However, Paul tells us that prior to salvation:

The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. -- Romans 8:6,7

If no work done prior to salvation is satisfactory to God, and all such work is therefore sin, what wage is God obligated to pay for that work?

For the wages of sin is death -- Romans 6:23

Therefore, we do not want to be paid for what we've done prior to salvation. We want, instead, to receive what we have not worked for...we want to receive a gift:

...but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. --Romans 6:23

This is Paul's description of the mechanism of salvation, not the resulting fruit of salvation. For that, we can look at what Paul writes to the Ephesians:

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. -- Ephesians 2:8,9

That is the second witness of what Paul said to the Romans, but...

For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life -- Ephesians 2:10

These "good works" are not works done prior to salvation in order to obligate God to pay salvation as though it were a wage. Rather, these are works that God had planned in advanced for those who have been saved to perform.

 

[Guojing]

As I've said before, Paul has explicitly defined the term "work" as used in this argument in Romans. This definition is specifically for this soteriological argument. His use of the word "work" in other places, or the use of the word "work" by other writers does not necessarily carry this same definition:

Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation. -- Romans 4:4

Paul tells us in this soteriological argument that the person who does work with the expectation of creating an obligation to be paid the worth of his labor.

However, Paul tells us that prior to salvation:

The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. -- Romans 8:6,7

If no work done prior to salvation is satisfactory to God, and all such work is therefore sin, what wage is God obligated to pay for that work?

For the wages of sin is death -- Romans 6:23

Therefore, we do not want to be paid for what we've done prior to salvation. We want, instead, to receive what we have not worked for...we want to receive a gift:

...but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. --Romans 6:23

This is Paul's description of the mechanism of salvation, not the resulting fruit of salvation. For that, we can look at what Paul writes to the Ephesians:

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. -- Ephesians 2:8,9

That is the second witness of what Paul said to the Romans, but...

For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life -- Ephesians 2:10

These "good works" are not works done prior to salvation in order to obligate God to pay salvation as though it were a wage. Rather, these are works that God had planned in advanced for those who have been saved to perform.

You are doing everything else but not answering the question that is being asked.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I asked you "Does an unbeliever need to believe the gospel first, before he can be born again?"

You replied with





That is what you said correct?

You took what I said to mean

You are deducing that Cornelius did not have to believe for him to receive the Holy Spirit in acts 10 correct?

How do you know that to be a fact?

How you got that he didn't have to have faith from what I said implies you weren't reading carefully, giving you the benefit of the doubt.

The question was about hearing the whole gospel message and believing that, Some believers start trusting in Jesus before hearing the whole thing.

The statement "Cornelius did not have to believe" is not related to my responses.

I'm not sure if your english comprehension is simply poor, or if you are just trying to start arguments. However, that's not really my concern.

 

[Guojing]

The question was about hearing the whole gospel message and believing that, Some believers start trusting in Jesus before hearing the whole thing.

I was quoting from you, but looks like you have changed your mind.

Okay, so you do agree that one still need to choose to trust in Jesus, before he can be saved.

So a choice is still involved there.

 

[RDKirk]

You are doing everything else but not answering the question that is being asked.

That's because you are posing "gotcha" questions.

Maybe you think you're just carrying out gentle conversation, but in a gentle conversation a person states his own position, provides support, and then inquires the other person's thoughts.

You appear to be attempting to lure people along a path to a hidden pit that you've dug.

 

[Guojing]

That's because you are posing "gotcha" questions.

Maybe you think you're just carrying out gentle conversation, but in a gentle conversation a person states his own position, provides support, and then inquires the other person's thoughts.

You appear to be attempting to lure people along a path to a hidden pit that you've dug.

Actually I am just trying to understand how one can actually think Paul and James are saying the same thing regarding faith and works for salvation.

Usually when people ask me direct questions, I will answer clearly with a yes or no, then I will explain my point of view.

But I understand others can respond the way they want, that is part and parcel of online bible discussions.

 

[Ligurian]

There has been an interruption of the prophetic program, to usher in the mystery program, as stated by Paul in Ephesians 3:1-9

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Jesus' Parables = Mysteries,
in the Gospel of the Kingdom:

Psalms 78:1-4 Give heed, O My people, to My law: incline your ear to the words of My mouth. 2 I will open My mouth in parables: I will utter dark sayings which have been from the beginning. 3 All which we have heard and known, and our fathers have declared to us. 4 They were not hid from their children to a second generations; the fathers declaring the praises of the Lord, and His mighty acts, and His wonders which He wrought.LXX

Matthew 13:10-11 And the Disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest Thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given.KJV

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I was quoting from you, but looks like you have changed your mind.

Okay, so you do agree that one still need to choose to trust in Jesus, before he can be saved.

So a choice is still involved there.

I don't agree, and you do not understand.

You continue to put words in my mouth and then have a conversation with that fictitious person.

 

[Guojing]

I don't agree, and you do not understand.

You continue to put words in my mouth and then have a conversation with that fictitious person.

I was using your words, even bolding those words for you.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus' Parables = Mysteries,
in the Gospel of the Kingdom:

Psalms 78:1-4 Give heed, O My people, to My law: incline your ear to the words of My mouth. 2 I will open My mouth in parables: I will utter dark sayings which have been from the beginning. 3 All which we have heard and known, and our fathers have declared to us. 4 They were not hid from their children to a second generations; the fathers declaring the praises of the Lord, and His mighty acts, and His wonders which He wrought.LXX

Matthew 13:10-11 And the Disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest Thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given.KJV

That is correct, but as I said, we are not under the gospel of the kingdom. The parables are doctrine for Israel but we are not Israel

 

[Ligurian]

That is correct, but as I said, we are not under the gospel of the kingdom. The parables are doctrine for Israel but we are not Israel

“What do you mean "we"?

What Do You Mean ‘We,’ White Man?

 

[Ligurian]

I asked you "Does an unbeliever need to believe the gospel first, before he can be born again?"

You seem to want it to be black or white... without really defining what "it" is.
Grace apart from works cannot be compared to Matthew 7:24.
But can certainly be compared with Matthew 7:26.
Galatians 2:7-9

And "we" know there are Lost Tribes of Israel, don't we?

And a whole lot of proselytes:

The Lost Tribes A Myth Suggestions Towards Rewriting Hebrew History : Allen Howard Godbey

 

[Guojing]

“What do you mean "we"?

What Do You Mean ‘We,’ White Man?

We means, those who are not from Israel

 

[Studyman]

Do you think there was a time where works were required to show that one's faith is real, as James would say in James 2?

If Noah believed there will be a flood, but did not do the work of building an ark, can his belief save him?

If Abel believe in God but offered plant sacrifice like Cain, would his belief save him?

Don't misunderstand me.

There is no Faith without Works, in my view. There is no belief without Works, in my view. We all have religious "Works", the question is, are they wrought in God or man?

For instance, do I believe December 25th is Jesus' Birthday? NO, I don't. But how is this belief of mine shown? By partaking of this man made religious high day? Or by not partaking of this man made religious high day? I choose NOT to partake of man's religious High Days, and choose instead to honor, to the best of my ability, the Feasts of the Lord. So by my "works" my Faith/Belief is shown.

The point of my post was to show, that in my understanding of the scriptures, it has always been Faith/Belief in God (Shown by our deeds/works), coupled with God's Mercy and Grace, that provided for atonement.