Hebrews says that God's new covenant nullified the old

[A_Thinker]

During then, faith AND works are required for salvation, and Jesus said it clearly in Matthew 25:31-46, one of those works is for gentiles to take care of Jews, the latter whom the Anti-Christ would be persecuting thru the Tribulation.

Jesus merely said that those who would attend to the needs of His brethren (in the supercharged era of Tribulation) ... would be saved, and that those who did not, would not be.

Once again, WHO would be these caring folk be ... in the face of the world's system and persecution ?

We have already experienced something similar to this in Nazi Germany (and beyond). What characterized those who faced down the governing forces ... and their own neighbors ... to care for God's people (at risk to their own life and limb) ? Is it unreasonable to believe that these were ennatured to do as they did ? What, do you believe, made them different than their neighbors ?

 

[A_Thinker]

Would you agree that Paul is saying faith without works will save in romans 4:5?

Faith is what saves (i.e. reconciles one to God).

Works (commensurate with relationship to God) will follow ...

 

[Danthemailman]

Faith is what saves (i.e. reconciles one to God).

Works (commensurate with relationship to God) will follow ...

Amen! Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit.

 

[Guojing]

Faith is what saves (i.e. reconciles one to God).

Works (commensurate with relationship to God) will follow ...

So if works don’t follow, can your faith without works still save you, according to romans 4:5?

 

[Guojing]

Jesus merely said that those who would attend to the needs of His brethren (in the supercharged era of Tribulation) ... would be saved, and that those who did not, would not be.

Once again, WHO would be these caring folk be ... in the face of the world's system and persecution ?

We have already experienced something similar to this in Nazi Germany (and beyond). What characterized those who faced down the governing forces ... and their own neighbors ... to care for God's people (at risk to their own life and limb) ? Is it unreasonable to believe that these were ennatured to do as they did ? What, do you believe, made them different than their neighbors ?

So isn’t Jesus saying that those works are required for salvation during the tribulation period of Matthew 24?

He is clearly not saying Romans 4:5 there, would you agree?

 

[Guojing]

No, it's what happened in scripture.

You are deducing that Cornelius did not have to believe for him to receive the Holy Spirit in acts 10 correct?

How do you know that to be a fact?

 

[Guojing]

James said nothing in regard to any future period of Tribulation. James was, merely, trying to get his fellow new believers ... to act like believers. James said, very reasonably ... if we, as believers, are uncharitable to those around us ... and even to each other, that is a poor reflection on God's kingdom ... and a poor representation to display ... as we are trying to draw others to Christ.

Christ explicitly said that "one's nature determines commensurate fruit".
Good trees do not produce wicked fruit ... and bad trees don't produce good fruit." One cannot gather grapes from thorns and thistles. And Paul said that our salvation ... is a gift from God obtained through faith ... and not through works. But he went on to say that God's gift of salvation (His workmanship, not ours) ... will generate Christ-like works in us ... that we might fulfill His will.

Do you know the book of James was written in early acts, most likely acts 8, after the Jews were scattered from Jerusalem?

In acts 2, peter declared to Israel, thru the Holy Spirit that there in the last days and Daniel’s 70th week is imminent

 

[A_Thinker]

So if works don’t follow, can your faith without works still save you, according to romans 4:5?

Works do follow salvation ...

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[A_Thinker]

So isn’t Jesus saying that those works are required for salvation during the tribulation period of Matthew 24?

No ... one does not see the word "required" in any of Jesus' words here, or anything similar.

Jesus says that those that ministered to His brethren during this period of crisis ... are saved people (i.e. sheep).

Note that in this passage, ... the sheep and the goats are different by nature.

The sheep did what sheep do ... and the goats did what goats do ...

 

[A_Thinker]

Do you know the book of James was written in early acts, most likely acts 8, after the Jews were scattered from Jerusalem?

In acts 2, peter declared to Israel, thru the Holy Spirit that there in the last days and Daniel’s 70th week is imminent

James' day ... was not the time of Tribulation (prophecied by Daniel, John, or Jesus Himself). There were particular signs which accompanied/heralded each of these prophecies.

James was reacting to seeing claimed believers ... neglecting to behave like believers (i.e. sinning in their words, not showing love to the needy, having disputes among themselves, exhibiting partnership with the world, etc.).

James was not encouraging people to be saved (by their works). He was preaching to believers (to live out their faith) ...

 

[Guojing]

No ... one does not see the word "required" in any of Jesus' words here, or anything similar.

Jesus says that those that ministered to His brethren during this period of crisis ... are saved people (i.e. sheep).

Note that in this passage, ... the sheep and the goats are different by nature.

The sheep did what sheep do ... and the goats did what goats do ...

I see, so you believe because they were already saved, hence they did those works.

Alright then, thanks for sharing how you understand Matthew 25:31-46. It is indeed consistent with covenant theology.

 

[Guojing]

Works do follow salvation ...

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

That is not answering my question about Romans 4:5, but never mind, your interpretation of Matthew 25:31-46 already explained your view, thanks.

 

[A_Thinker]

That is not answering my question about Romans 4:5, but never mind, your interpretation of Matthew 25:31-46 already explained your view, thanks.

What is your specific question about Romans 4:5 ?

How is it that Paul's writing in Ephesians 2 doesn't help to resolve this ?

 

[Guojing]

What is your specific question about Romans 4:5 ?

How is it that Paul's writing in Ephesians 2 doesn't help to resolve this ?

I am asking you, if there are no works, what did Paul said in Romans 4:5 about whether your faith (without works) will make you righteous?

You have to follow my premise "If there are no works", but you are changing my premise into "works will always follow".

 

[A_Thinker]

I am asking you, if there are no works, what did Paul said in Romans 4:5 about whether your faith (without works) will make you righteous?

You have to follow my premise "If there are no works", but you are changing my premise into "works will always follow".

The seed of faith will grow in the receptive heart ... and bear fruit.

If there is no fruit, ... there was no faith ..

 

[Guojing]

The seed of faith will grow in the receptive heart ... and bear fruit.

If there is no fruit, ... there was no faith ..

If no works means no faith, then Romans 4:5 will not make sense, since it specifically tells us that faith without works can reckon one as righteous.

I think what you are doing here is that you are including works in the definition of faith. Is that a reasonable conclusion?

 

[A_Thinker]

If no works means no faith, then Romans 4:5 will not make sense, since it specifically tells us that faith without works can reckon one as righteous.

I think what you are doing here is that you are including works in the definition of faith. Is that a reasonable conclusion?

Paul is clear that faith is man's access to God's gift of salvation.

So faith is the saving agent from man's side of the breach. A man's faith, when coupled with God's grace, ... yields reconciliation and relationship with God.

From this relationship, Godly works flow.

Paul is also clear about this.

That he uses the hypothetical example of faith without works to teach these truths doesn't mean that the hypothetical can be actual ...

 

[Studyman]

Paul is clear that faith is man's access to God's gift of salvation.

So faith is the saving agent from man's side of the breach. A man's faith, when coupled with God's grace, ... yields reconciliation and relationship with God.

From this relationship, Godly works flow.

Paul is also clear about this.

That he uses the hypothetical example of faith without works to teach these truths doesn't mean that the hypothetical can be actual ...

It has always been Faith/Belief coupled with God's Mercy and Grace that yielded reconciliation and relationship with God. From Abel to the present. This has always been the Gospel of Christ.

Zacharias and Simeon and Anna all knew this because they "Believed God and it was accounted to them as righteousness".

While the mainstream preachers of their time had God's instructions, but didn't "believe" them.

Just because the preachers of their time didn't "Believe" God, doesn't make the "Faith" HE promoted void. As Paul tells us.

Rom. 3: 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

You are deducing that Cornelius did not have to believe for him to receive the Holy Spirit in acts 10 correct?

How do you know that to be a fact?

That's not what I said, if this is how you read my posts, it must be how you read the bible also.

 

[Ligurian]

There are 3 time periods in which you should rightly divide the word of truth

Time past: Genesis to Acts
But now: Romans to Philemon
The age to come: Hebrews to Revelation

Faith without works is dead was true in time past, and will be true in the age to come.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

your "But now" division (Paulinian) = AD 50-58
Luke - 57-60+ ... Acts - 57-62+ ... Hebrews - c. 67.

James - c. 47-8.
Matthew - c. 40-60+
John - c. 40-65+ Revelation - mid to late 60s.
1 Peter - spring 65.
What is the "Robinson Redating of the New Testament"?
lastdayspast.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Arthur-T.-Robinson-Redated-New-Testament-Chronology.doc

A study of the word Age, in the Gospel of the Kingdom,
says this good news ends when Thy Kingdom comes.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming.YLT
Matthew 6:13 And mayest Thou not lead us to temptation, but deliver us from the evil, because Thine is the reign, and the power, and the glory — to the ages. Amen.YLT
Matthew 13:22 And that sown toward the thorns, this is he who is hearing the word, and the anxiety of this age, and the deceitfulness of the riches, do choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.YLT
Matthew 13:49 so shall it be in the full end of the age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,YLT
1 Peter 1:23-25 being begotten again, not out of seed corruptible, but incorruptible, through a word of God — living and remaining — to the age; 24 because all flesh [is] as grass, and all glory of man as flower of grass; wither did the grass, and the flower of it fell away, 25 and the saying of the Lord doth remain — to the age; and this is the saying that was proclaimed good news to you.YLT

Matthew 13:10-12 And the Disciples having come near, said to Him, ‘Wherefore in similes dost thou speak to them?’ 11 And He answering said to them that — ‘To you it hath been given to know the secrets of the Reign of the Heavens, and to these it hath not been given, 12 for whoever hath, it shall be given to him, and he shall have overabundance, and whoever hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken from him.YLT