Hebrews says that God's new covenant nullified the old

[A_Thinker]

So if you believe faith produces works, you are saying works are necessary for faith.

No ... what I am saying is that where faith exists, ... works will be in evidence.

You might think of faith as the energy ... or the motivation ... to produce works ...

 

[RDKirk]

So if you believe faith produces works, you are saying works are necessary for faith.

No, that's not what that says. But without faith, there are no "good works."

 

[Studyman]

My view is that faith is believing.
Works is what you do.

They are always separated.

I agree with both James and Paul but they are writing to different audience at different time periods.

In time past and the age to come, faith without works is indeed dead. Belief in God command requires a corresponding work to do, in order to show your faith is alive. James is referring to those 2 time periods.

Its only in the current "but now" time period that faith without works can now save you. Paul is referring to this time period.

That is a fascinating religious philosophy.

You are saying you have been convinced that the Faith of Abraham is not saving Faith for us, but will be again for some future generation.

James 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

I must respectfully disagree that God changes HIS definition of Faith depending on what generation a man is born into.

1 Cor. 6:Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived;

Just saying "Lord, Lord" like those in Matt. 7, has never been saving Faith. This was true throughout history.

And Paul agrees.

Titus. 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

I would "take heed" giving so much weight to the religious philosophers of this world that God/Jesus, the OT and NT warned against so many, many times about.

You be careful.

 

[Guojing]

That is a fascinating religious philosophy.

You are saying you have been convinced that the Faith of Abraham is not saving Faith for us, but will be again for some future generation.

James 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

I must respectfully disagree that God changes HIS definition of Faith depending on what generation a man is born into.

1 Cor. 6:Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived;

Just saying "Lord, Lord" like those in Matt. 7, has never been saving Faith. This was true throughout history.

And Paul agrees.

Titus. 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

I would "take heed" giving so much weight to the religious philosophers of this world that God/Jesus, the OT and NT warned against so many, many times about.

You be careful.

Thanks, I learn from the apostle Paul who taught me to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).

I don't take truth given to Israel at a different time period and apply it to myself now.

Have you wondered why such a teaching cannot be found except in Paul's epistles?

 

[Guojing]

No, that's not what that says. But without faith, there are no "good works."

That reply was not given to you but to be clear, you believe there can be the existence of faith without works?

 

[Guojing]

No ... what I am saying is that where faith exists, ... works will be in evidence.

You might think of faith as the energy ... or the motivation ... to produce works ...

When you say whenever faith exists, there will be evidence of works, you are not simultaneously claiming that works are necessary for faith to exist?

I already given you the fire and oxygen analogy.

 

[A_Thinker]

When you say whenever faith exists, there will be evidence of works, you are not simultaneously claiming that works are necessary for faith to exist?

I already given you the fire and oxygen analogy.

Using your analogy, FIRE is NOT necessary for OXYGEN to exist.

There is no reversibility in the direction of causation.

FAITH generates WORKS, ... but WORKS do not generate FAITH.

Matthew 7

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Guojing]

Using your analogy, FIRE is NOT necessary for OXYGEN to exist.

There is no reversibility in the direction of causation.

FAITH generates WORKS, ... but WORKS do not generate FAITH.

Yes, Fire means there is oxygen, but oxygen does not result in fire.

So Fire = Faith
Oxygen = works

That is what you are saying correct?

 

[A_Thinker]

Yes, Fire means there is oxygen, but oxygen does not result in fire.

So Fire = Faith
Oxygen = works

That is what you are saying correct?

Oxygen = Faith
Fire = Works

Oxygen produces Fire, Faith produces Works ...

 

[Studyman]

Thanks, I learn from the apostle Paul who taught me to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15).

I don't take truth given to Israel at a different time period and apply it to myself now.

Have you wondered why such a teaching cannot be found except in Paul's epistles?

I have heard of this religious philosophy, that Paul taught differently than Jesus or James, or the God of the Bible. It is a popular religious philosophy to be sure, and "many" walk in it. But the Scriptures teach no such thing. They teach the opposite. Paul taught the Gospel was the Law and Prophets. He taught from them exclusively.

So when a person listens to someone who picks select verses, and ignores the rest of the Bible, this is how these "winds of doctrine" get started. My hope is you will try and believe the warnings of the Christ and of Paul, guarding men who come in Jesus name, or are disguised as "ministers of Righteousness", and start studying on your own. Jesus once said "Man shall live by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God".

Some man's religious perspective of Paul doesn't make these Word's void.

Ants 24: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

 

[Guojing]

Oxygen = Faith
Fire = Works

Oxygen produces Fire, Faith produces Works ...

Oxygen is not a sufficient condition for fire. It is a necessary condition.

So you cannot say oxygen "produces" fire.

 

[Guojing]

I have heard of this religious philosophy, that Paul taught differently than Jesus or James, or the God of the Bible. It is a popular religious philosophy to be sure, and "many" walk in it. But the Scriptures teach no such thing. They teach the opposite. Paul taught the Gospel was the Law and Prophets. He taught from them exclusively.

So when a person listens to someone who picks select verses, and ignores the rest of the Bible, this is how these "winds of doctrine" get started. My hope is you will try and believe the warnings of the Christ and of Paul, guarding men who come in Jesus name, or are disguised as "ministers of Righteousness", and start studying on your own. Jesus once said "Man shall live by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God".

Some man's religious perspective of Paul doesn't make these Word's void.

Ants 24: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Actually if you read Acts 21:18-25, Paul and James have very different beliefs on the role of the Law for believers.

 

[A_Thinker]

Oxygen is not a sufficient condition for fire. It is a necessary condition.

So you cannot say oxygen "produces" fire.

It is the general circumstance that a single condition does not produce a particular result.

Such is a particularity without unique significance ...

 

[Guojing]

It is the general circumstance that a single condition does not produce a particular result.

Such is a particularity without unique significance ...

I have no idea what you are trying to say here, but let's move on from this. We can agree to disagree.

 

[A_Thinker]

Oxygen is not a sufficient condition for fire. It is a necessary condition.

So you cannot say oxygen "produces" fire.

I was merely saying that it is the common situation that there are multiple causes that come together to produce a result.

Because I can't say that oxygen alone produces fire, ... doesn't mean that it is incorrect to say the oxygen produces fire.

Besides, it has always been my contention that man's faith added to God's grace produces salvation and that godly works follow.

At least that is what Paul teaches in Ephesians 2:8-10 ...

 

[Guojing]

I was merely saying that it is the common situation that there are multiple causes that come together to produce a result.

Because I can't say that oxygen alone produces fire, ... doesn't mean that it is incorrect to say the oxygen produces fire.

Besides, it has always been my contention that man's faith added to God's grace produces salvation and that godly works follow.

At least that is what Paul teaches in Ephesians 2:8-10 ...

Do you understand the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions?

 

[Studyman]

Actually if you read Acts 21:18-25, Paul and James have very different beliefs on the role of the Law for believers.

I disagree. And you will not address the Scriptures I post, So the reason for our disagreement can not be remedied.

 

[Guojing]

I disagree. And you will not address the Scriptures I post, So the reason for our disagreement can not be remedied.

You are free to disagree of course. That passage is difficult for those who insist that James does not contradict Paul.

Read Acts 21:18-25 and tell me what it literally says.

 

[Studyman]

You are free to disagree of course. That passage is difficult for those who insist that James does not contradict Paul.

Read Acts 21:18-25 and tell me what it literally says.

First off, it is dangerous and even deceitful, in my view, to take one part of the Holy Scriptures, and use it as a tool or weapon to destroy or make void another part of Scripture. So from the onset, your insistence that Paul somehow makes the Word's of Jesus or James or Moses void is a problem for me. Especially since he himself claims to believe ALL that is written. A scriptures i posted, and you ignored.

So i believe Acts 21, just as I believe everything else that is written. I am glad to engage in the examination of these Scriptures for the edification of us both.

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

What did Paul teach the Gentiles in his ministry? Shall we not believe what Paul himself says about his own ministry?

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (both) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

Can you please show me in Scriptures how this is teaching differently than James, Jesus or Moses?

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

So Paul was being accused of teaching Jews to forsake Moses, or the teaching of the Law and Prophets.

Shall we not believe Paul in his defense of this accusation?

Acts 24:12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:

13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Can you show me in scriptures how this is Paul teaching the opposite of James, Jesus or Moses? Do you believe Paul is a Liar here?

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; (Not True) but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Can you show me where, in the Scriptures, these words regarding Paul are against or opposite of the teaching of James, Jesus or Moses? Are you preaching that Paul didn't walk orderly, and didn't "keep the Law?" That these words in Acts are untrue?

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, (Law of Moses) and from blood, (Law of Moses) and from strangled, (Law of Moses) and from fornication. (Law of Moses)

The reason why we see these verses differently is because you have isolated them in order to justify your own religious philosophy. You mean well, but this practice is rampant in the religions of this world, and it is easy to become snared by them. This is why Jesus and the Holy Scriptures warn so many times about the religious philosophies of men who come in HIS name.

Paul and James were directing these Gentiles away from the Mainstream Religions and Traditions of their time, and "toward" Moses and the Prophets.

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

And these men did these things for the Gentiles, because this is exactly what Jesus instructed for them.

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (Reading Moses each sabbath day)

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

So you asked me to "tell you what Acts 21:18-25 "literally says". I have given you what you asked for.

Up to this point you have refused to engage in the examination of the Scriptures I posted, and the questions I have asked.

Perhaps you would show some common courtesy this time, and answer my questions, as I have answered yours.

 

[Guojing]

First off, it is dangerous and even deceitful, in my view, to take one part of the Holy Scriptures, and use it as a tool or weapon to destroy or make void another part of Scripture. So from the onset, your insistence that Paul somehow makes the Word's of Jesus or James or Moses void is a problem for me. Especially since he himself claims to believe ALL that is written. A scriptures i posted, and you ignored.

So i believe Acts 21, just as I believe everything else that is written. I am glad to engage in the examination of these Scriptures for the edification of us both.

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

What did Paul teach the Gentiles in his ministry? Shall we not believe what Paul himself says about his own ministry?

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (both) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

Can you please show me in Scriptures how this is teaching differently than James, Jesus or Moses?

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

So Paul was being accused of teaching Jews to forsake Moses, or the teaching of the Law and Prophets.

Shall we not believe Paul in his defense of this accusation?

Acts 24:12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:

13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Can you show me in scriptures how this is Paul teaching the opposite of James, Jesus or Moses? Do you believe Paul is a Liar here?

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; (Not True) but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Can you show me where, in the Scriptures, these words regarding Paul are against or opposite of the teaching of James, Jesus or Moses? Are you preaching that Paul didn't walk orderly, and didn't "keep the Law?" That these words in Acts are untrue?

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, (Law of Moses) and from blood, (Law of Moses) and from strangled, (Law of Moses) and from fornication. (Law of Moses)

The reason why we see these verses differently is because you have isolated them in order to justify your own religious philosophy. You mean well, but this practice is rampant in the religions of this world, and it is easy to become snared by them. This is why Jesus and the Holy Scriptures warn so many times about the religious philosophies of men who come in HIS name.

Paul and James were directing these Gentiles away from the Mainstream Religions and Traditions of their time, and "toward" Moses and the Prophets.

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

And these men did these things for the Gentiles, because this is exactly what Jesus instructed for them.

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (Reading Moses each sabbath day)

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

So you asked me to "tell you what Acts 21:18-25 "literally says". I have given you what you asked for.

Up to this point you have refused to engage in the examination of the Scriptures I posted, and the questions I have asked.

Perhaps you would show some common courtesy this time, and answer my questions, as I have answered yours.

Which question you want me to answer? Can you choose one?