The Warped World of Incel Extremists

[bèlla]

That’s not what is happening in real life, though. At least where I live, most people are paired up and most women don’t pursue men out of their league. These guys whole life is online and it’s what they see happening on tinder.

I don't see that either. The married couples I know are evenly matched. There's no huge disparity. Online interactions embolden some. That's why I noted the difference between proximity and securing her. Some Christians feel if they're believers that's enough. You shouldn't scrutinize them.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

Between "back in the day" and these days of online dating, friends were very much involved in "setting up" meetings between likely candidates that they knew and thought might be compatible.

That's pretty much what being "in the same circles" means. Circles of friends predates circles of mutual interests. For instance, in my youth there might have been girls who also liked Star Trek, comic book superheroes, electro-mechanical gizmos, and science fiction literature, but I actually never met anyone else at all who was also interested in Star Trek, comic book superheroes, electro-mechanical gizmos, and science fiction literature. There was no avenue to meet people of similar interests who were beyond one's own physical spaces.

So my "circle of friends" did not overlap my "circle of interests" at all. My circle of friends were people within my physical spaces.

Right, and although I'd like to have a woman in my life that's into Star Trek and comic books, let's face it, I don't meet too many woman over 40 into that kind of thing that is not married. I was talking to someone about some of the conventions we go to in the area, and how it is to meet single women at these cons.

IF they are single, they are more so college-aged anime lovers. lol

Outside of that, it's really family oriented event.

 

[dzheremi]

If a person (for whatever reason) was unable to make themselves financially stable, would we call them "Inpoo" (short for Involuntarily Poor)?

Well now I will.

And if they acted out in various ways due to their poor financial circumstances, would we label them extremists?

Yeah, we would. When people do stuff like steal or knock over banks, we generally put them in jail, which is a pretty serious way to convey that we've decided as a society that their behavior is out of bounds.

I use that example, because when people are born into poor neighborhoods (outside of their control), much of society tends to take a more sympathetic view when people in that environment act out with hostility or commit acts of aggression or crime...or portray it as "it's really more of a reflection of the unfairness of society than it is that individual"

Yet, when a dude is born with sub-par looks or genetics, maybe isn't born with the intellectual gifts to earn a lot of money, and born socially awkward...when they act out in bad ways due to the frustration of not being able to secure a sexual partner, society has created a "slang term" and "extremist designation" for them.

Because being born into a situation in which you're not having sex is not drawing some kind of tough hand in life -- it's literally the default of every single person on the planet. The process of getting from there to where you are in a stable, loving relationship that might actually lead somewhere is part of the process of being refined from essentially a blob of a cute, roly poly sputtering human puppy to being a functioning person. Nobody is born slaying it with the opposite sex, even if they are very conventionally attractive. Some very conventionally attractive people are still complete creeps who are actually quite dangerous and more akin to the violent subset of incels than people who are well put together (see, e.g., Robert Chambers or Alex Kelly -- pretty 1980s preppy boys who violated and, in the case of Chambers, murdered women).

If they're bent out of shape about not being able to "hook up" with a woman...seems like legalizing the outlet that could let them blow off some steam may make them a little less "tense". (in the same way that creating good jobs in a poor neighborhood could lessen someone's likelihood of feeling like they should rob a gas station or join a gang with other people in that same situation)

I dunno about that. Maybe it would work out that way, or maybe it wouldn't. Do you happen to know if violence against women and related crimes (stalking, etc.) is significantly lower in the NV counties that have legalized prostitution than it is in other areas of the state or comparable areas in terms of economic opportunities and demography? I'd want to see that kind of data before I say anything else, though I also wouldn't want searches about legalized prostitution in my Google search history. I get enough stupid ads for pretzels after ordering ONE box of fancy pretzels off the internet many months ago...I don't need ads for other things as well.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

Even someone like the Elephant man in modern times can probably exploit the fetish scene.

Did ya hafta? Lol, I lost it when I read that

You know you’re in trouble when the Elephant Man is doing better than you!

 

[bèlla]

You really think relationships won't work if there are no shared interests? I know marriages/relationships where each person has their own thing they enjoy doing. The husband goes fishing, the wife does her thing. etc.

I didn't say they wouldn't work. I said my circle is compromised of like-minded people who share my interests. I like being around people who get me. I don't have to hide or downplay anything. I can be myself. That's more important than differences.

 

[bèlla]

Thanks but I don't wear armor, my dear. I find it too ... cliche. I think I do better in a magic cape, or cloak. (I know what you meant, though. )

Sorry, we covered that in the last chapter! My mistake. @Isilwen told me to have a glass of wine!

 

[ThisIsMe123]

I like being around people who get me.

Okay, cool...I get you. ;-)

 

[bèlla]

Reminds me of an anecdote an oriental brother said to a preacher friend: "You Americans' marriages start hot and end cold. Our's start cold and end hot."

I know we can’t pull off arranged marriages in our culture, but they have some benefits perhaps.

I contemplated this a year ago. I read God is a Matchmaker several times and I like to remain open-minded. I discovered I couldn't. I need flow in my connections. You won't have it in that scenario. It takes time.

I'm looking for symbiosis. That requires a certain energy, temperament, mindset, and sensuality. I'm not for the faint of heart. Let's be honest.

 

[MehGuy]

Did ya hafta? Lol, I lost it when I read that

You know you’re in trouble when the Elephant Man is doing better than you!

Yeah, but you have to go to the real bottom of the barrel to make a point.

As a short man I can still get women.. but I have found dating niches where women are actually more attracted to short men compared to tall men. With genetic mutations.. you can find someone attracted to almost anything. Honestly I do find it somewhat sad how the internet seems to have made dating worse when it probably doesn't have to be.. and really should be the opposite.

Thing about fetishes too.. it isn't dependent on how a person looks. I know women into offbeat attractions (like those in wheelchairs) who are very traditionally beautiful themselves. You just need to be knowledgeable and creative where you look.

 

[RDKirk]

Human beings get older but not everyone grows. Some remain stagnant and others diminish. I'm an overachiever and surround myself with the same. We're determined to accomplish our dreams no matter what.

You must be able to gallop to hang with me. I won't slow down. That takes a certain drive, personality, and work ethic. We haven't outgrown one another because we're running in the same direction. Someone who requires a different cadence wouldn't enjoy it.

You didn't actually address the point I made. Okay, so you're going to be galloping. You met a man who--at that moment--happened to be galloping in the same direction as you were.

Will you make a deliberate effort to keep pace and direction with that person? If he slows, will you slow with him? If he goes in a different direction, will you change direction with him?

And I would say the same thing to a man, because if you don't both make a deliberate effort to map out a common direction and pace, it's not going to happen magically.

 

[bèlla]

I think that makes a case for legalizing prostitution.

They don't like sex workers. They want forcible submission from women. Like The Handmaid's Tale.

Yet, when a dude is born with sub-par looks or genetics, maybe isn't born with the intellectual gifts to earn a lot of money, and born socially awkward...when they act out in bad ways due to the frustration of not being able to secure a sexual partner, society has created a "slang term" and "extremist designation" for them.

They coined it themselves. Your solution is normal. It won't work. Sorry.

 

[RDKirk]

Yeah, but you have to go to the real bottom of the barrel to make a point.

As a short man I can still get women.. but I have found dating niches where women are actually more attracted to short men compared to tall men. With genetic mutations.. you can find someone attracted to almost anything. Honestly I do find it somewhat sad how the internet seems to have made dating worse when it probably doesn't have to be.. and really should be the opposite.

Thing about fetishes too.. it isn't dependent on how a person looks. I know women into offbeat attractions (like those in wheelchairs) who are very traditionally beautiful themselves. You just need to be knowledgeable and creative where you look.

Ah, but feminist women are also making it a "bad thing" to be attracted to "fetishes," teaching younger women that if a man is attracted to them by any particular feature, they should shun that man.

My daughter rejects that. She says that if she discovers a man has been attracted to her by any particular feature, she'll paint it red.

 

[bèlla]

Will you make a deliberate effort to keep pace and direction with that person? If he slows, will you slow with him? If he goes in a different direction, will you change direction with him?

I would never gallop with someone I couldn't follow. Which means, he probably can outrun me and has. I'm not mapping out anything. He gets the reigns and charts the course. I'm the metronome. I can keep pace. That's innate.

 

[MehGuy]

Ah, but feminist women are also making it a "bad thing" to be attracted to "fetishes," teaching younger women that if a man is attracted to them by any particular feature, they should shun that man.

My daughter rejects that. She says that if she discovers a man has been attracted to her by any particular feature, she'll paint it red.

Feminists are often huge hypocrites and often walking contradictions.

I do not see much of a fundamental difference between a woman who likes traditional features in a man like height and one who likes a man who is paralyzed. One is obviously less advantageous in an evolutionary sense and understandably way less common.. but in a philosophical sense.. I do not see the difference. Just as a woman who likes height can also valued the deeper aspects of the man.. the same rings true for women who like untraditional things.

 

[RDKirk]

Right, and although I'd like to have a woman in my life that's into Star Trek and comic books, let's face it, I don't meet too many woman over 40 into that kind of thing that is not married. I was talking to someone about some of the conventions we go to in the area, and how it is to meet single women at these cons.

When I was thirty, I did happen meet a woman who knew what Star Trek was (she caught, in conversation, the link between Star Trek and "rich Corinthian leather")...

...and I married her. That was nearly 40 years ago, before TNG had even begun airing.

 

[Sparagmos]

Yet, when a dude is born with sub-par looks or genetics, maybe isn't born with the intellectual gifts to earn a lot of money, and born socially awkward...when they act out in bad ways due to the frustration of not being able to secure a sexual partner, society has created a "slang term" and "extremist designation" for them.

I have to disagree with some of the assumptions here. First, that most of what keeps incels from finding dates is genetic features out of their control. That is something the guys in that group perceive but I don’t think it’s true at all. The slang term was invented by them. And the extremist designation comes not from their inability to get dates but from their attitude towards women (and “chads”). They do, in fact, have unreasonable expectations for women. They often explicitly state they don’t want overweight women or “ugly” women. They believe really horrible, untrue things about women (AWALT, etc.). Women reject them because they are angry, miserable, and hate women, not because they are ugly or awkward.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Well now I will.

It's because of the "poo" part isn't it

Yeah, we would. When people do stuff like steal or knock over banks, we generally put them in jail, which is a pretty serious way to convey that we've decided as a society that their behavior is out of bounds.

There's a difference between labeling one a criminal vs labeling someone as having an affiliation with some sort of "extremist" ideology.

While we punish a person who vandalizing a building "just for fun", we dole out a harsher punishment on a person who spraypaints a swastika on the side of a Jewish temple.

Because being born into a situation in which you're not having sex is not drawing some kind of tough hand in life -- it's literally the default of every single person on the planet. The process of getting from there to where you are in a stable, loving relationship that might actually lead somewhere is part of the process of being refined from essentially a blob of a cute, roly poly sputtering human puppy to being a functioning person. Nobody is born slaying it with the opposite sex, even if they are very conventionally attractive. Some very conventionally attractive people are still complete creeps who are actually quite dangerous and more akin to the violent subset of incels than people who are well put together (see, e.g., Robert Chambers or Alex Kelly -- pretty 1980s preppy boys who violated and, in the case of Chambers, murdered women).

Well, we're obviously "born into" a state of virginity, but as a person reaches their 20's/30's/etc...that's not the normal state. Everyone has the desire to attract a mate, it's a mammal thing.

A person who wants to have sex, but has less of a chance of finding a willing partner is in the same boat as a person who wants to be able to have a home, buy groceries, etc... but born into a situation where those things are less likely.

Much like financial outcomes, where you can either be born really smart or born into a family who has money...

The sexual outcomes are similar, you can either be born good looking...or born into circumstances where you can have enough financial resources to attract a mate.

When we think of the types of people who end up being labelled as "incel", none of them have a lot of money, and none of them look like John Stamos or Brad Pitt.

I dunno about that. Maybe it would work out that way, or maybe it wouldn't. Do you happen to know if violence against women and related crimes (stalking, etc.) is significantly lower in the NV counties that have legalized prostitution than it is in other areas of the state or comparable areas in terms of economic opportunities and demography? I'd want to see that kind of data before I say anything else, though I also wouldn't want searches about legalized prostitution in my Google search history. I get enough stupid ads for pretzels after ordering ONE box of fancy pretzels off the internet many months ago...I don't need ads for other things as well.

There is some data to suggest that legalizing prostitution lowers sexual assaults against women, both domestically, and abroad.

Legal prostitution zones reduce incidents of rape and sexual abuse | HuffPost

Holland's legal prostitution zones reduce rape: New research - The Journalist's Resource


The reality is, unless someone has some sort of "power fetish", it'll alleviate it.

The analogy I've used in the past is:

If you take some people, lock them in a room, and deprive them of food for 5 days... and then on day 6, toss a slice of pizza in the room and leave them to their own devices... you'll see some people, who would otherwise behave ethically in normal circumstances, resort to some very unethical behavior in order to be the person who gets that slice of pizza.

 

[bèlla]

@ThisIsMe123

I meet lots of women. If I encounter a Trekkie comic gal in your area I'll let you know.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I have to disagree with some of the assumptions here. First, that most of what keeps incels from finding dates is genetic features out of their control. That is something the guys in that group perceive but I don’t think it’s true at all. The slang term was invented by them. And the extremist designation comes not from their inability to get dates but from their attitude towards women (and “chads”). They do, in fact, have unreasonable expectations for women. They often explicitly state they don’t want overweight women or “ugly” women. They believe really horrible, untrue things about women (AWALT, etc.). Women reject them because they are angry, miserable, and hate women, not because they are ugly or awkward.

It's a chicken & the egg situation...

Do the hate women because of some "wiring malfunction" in their brain that was there all along, or is because they've been rejected and ridiculed by women who saw them as "less than" because they weren't good looking or had money?

That obviously doesn't make their attitudes right, nor does it justify their behavior...

But I've never seen a good looking or millionaire "Incel"

 

[Sparagmos]

I don't see that either. The married couples I know are evenly matched. There's no huge disparity. Online interactions embolden some. That's why I noted the difference between proximity and securing her. Some Christians feel if they're believers that's enough. You shouldn't scrutinize them.

And, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, tinder and such are geared towards hook-ups, and men get more out of hook-ups than women. Just because an average looking woman can sometimes hook up with drunk “Chad” at 2am, doesn’t mean she ends up getting what she wanted, if all she wanted was sex.

Once a good male friend said to me “sex is like pizza, even when it’s bad it’s better than nothing!” I laid out for him just how bad “bad” sex could be for a woman.