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partinobodycular

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For many people, the impact of being personally reassured of their forgiveness by someone who's heard their sin, and their guilt, and their shame, and who can still assure them that God forgives them is far more meaningful than an abstract general assurance of forgiveness, or of speaking directly to God

I don't know, maybe it's just me but I can't imagine feeling the same reassurance after talking to a priest, as I do after talking to God. But I've been doing it for a very long time, so maybe it's just me. Who knows.

It just seems to me that if you want to be assured that you're forgiven...all that you have to do is ask. God'll know if you're sincere, maybe you won't, and maybe a priest won't, but He will. Of course we in our human frailty are never quite sure, so it's good every once in a while to just sit and talk. Even if you feel like there's nobody there to listen, talk anyway. Because talking reveals repentance, and repentance begets forgiveness. So talk to God, maybe He's listening, and maybe He's not. The forgiveness will come all the same.

I know, you think that confession is important. But maybe what you consider confessing and what I consider talking are actually one and the same thing. It's just that you think that it requires a priest and perhaps some level of formality, and I don't.

Priests are no doubt wonderful people, and they may well have their place, but I just don't think that it's as an intercessory between me and God.
 
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partinobodycular

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Try not to think of God has giving us some "system" or gimmick to get around sin. As Paidiske explained, forgiveness comes from God. Certainly you can and should ask God directly for forgiveness of sins, catch the first part of a Sunday mass on television and you will hear Catholics ask God to forgive their sins.
God, in his great mercy, gave us this beautiful sacrament. So important was it that God breathed upon the Apostles when He gave them this power, recall Genesis 2:7: The LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being." It is much harder to go before a man and confess your sins, perhaps be queried in some detail when necessary, than to say a quick "Sorry God" over the shoulder for even the most heinous of sins. What wisdom God has. Of course if you lie about repenting God is not going to forgive you, God cannot be conned.
See above.
 
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Paidiske

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I don't know, maybe it's just me but I can't imagine feeling the same reassurance after talking to a priest, as I do after talking to God. But I've been doing it for a very long time, so maybe it's just me. Who knows.

It just seems to me that if you want to be assured that you're forgiven...all that you have to do is ask. God'll know if you're sincere, maybe you won't, and maybe a priest won't, but He will. Of course we in our human frailty are never quite sure, so it's good every once in a while to just sit and talk. Even if you feel like there's nobody there to listen, talk anyway. Because talking reveals repentance, and repentance begets forgiveness. So talk to God, maybe He's listening, and maybe He's not. The forgiveness will come all the same.

I know, you think that confession is important. But maybe what you consider confessing and what I consider talking are actually one and the same thing. It's just that you think that it requires a priest and perhaps some level of formality, and I don't.

Priests are no doubt wonderful people, and they may well have their place, but I just don't think that it's as an intercessory between me and God.

I didn't say that confession requires a priest. I said that some people find it helpful.

People are different. If you don't find confession with a priest helpful, you don't have to do it. But for those who do find it helpful, why begrudge it?
 
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Zoii

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hat said, saying that mandatory reporting laws don't actually work isn't necessarily supporting child abuse or the covering up of child abuse. I'm of the opinion that mandatory reporting laws don't work well, and I'm just about as far from supporting child abuse as you could get.
Interesting point - As you know, my mother is a psychotherapist but is also a registered nurse - So in her sessions, if she feels that her client is going to disclose child abuse, she tells them that any information of that nature will be reported to the police, whether they want it to happen or not. That has a downside for some, in that the client may choose then to steer away from that important issue needing therapy.

On the flip-side - If that same conversation was held with a social worker, then the social worker is not compelled by law to report it, as they are not referred to in the legislation, and nor are they registered with APHRA ie they are not a regulated workforce.
 
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Zoii

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So you say. I of course would disagree outright and know in advance such is not the case. For as it says in the 18th Psalm (19th in Hebrew numbering):

"The law of the Lord is unspotted, converting souls: the testimony of the Lord is faithful, giving wisdom to little ones. The justices of the Lord are right, rejoicing hearts: the commandment of the Lord is lightsome, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is holy, enduring for ever and ever: the judgments of the Lord are true, justified in themselves. More to be desired than gold and many precious stones: and sweeter than honey and the honeycomb."
Are you disputing reports on this or is it that you have identified research published supporting your argument? Please forgive me but I'm not Christian so I didn't understand your reference to the psalm and how that applies to issues around protection within the confessional.
 
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Paidiske

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Interesting point - As you know, my mother is a psychotherapist but is also a registered nurse - So in her sessions, if she feels that her client is going to disclose child abuse, she tells them that any information of that nature will be reported to the police, whether they want it to happen or not. That has a downside for some, in that the client may choose then to steer away from that important issue needing therapy.

This exactly. When I explain to people the boundaries and limits of confidentiality, for some the conversation changes direction or ends. And then where do they go for help, and to get to the point of being ready to face reporting?

It's very fraught, and it bothers me that it's often the victims who carry the cost of a broken system.
 
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Abaxvahl

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Are you disputing reports on this or is it that you have identified research published supporting your argument? Please forgive me but I'm not Christian so I didn't understand your reference to the psalm and how that applies to issues around protection within the confessional.

I am disputing that if God's Law on this matter is followed it would cause more negative effects than good effects, the Psalm being part of the evidence for this.
 
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Zoii

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I also want to point out that while the Montanna supreme court has provided precedence for all religions to NOT report child sexual abuse, I have particular concerns regarding JWs.

Now I actually like JWs and the way they come to your house. They are sweet and genuine and want to share their faith, though I'm certain they feel I am a lost cause in that regard. From my perspective, I enjoy discussing various philosophical life issues.

But what I have recently discovered, is that this religion has particular issues around child abuse, and their refusal to adopt all recommendations put to them by the Australian Royal Commission. I have concerns regarding their internal investigation process, the refusal to allow women in the process, and their habit of interrogating the child by a group of elders. Lastly - I am angered by their refusal to join the national redress scheme, which provides compensation to victims, and their ongoing habit of community shunning victims who report.

You are all very busy people, but if you get a chance, I invite you to read a little more regarding the issues confronting JW children, as reported by the Royal Commission. I have attached a link to one of the 44 testimonies recorded.
Alita
 
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Larniavc

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Calling out systemic abuse and cover ups in the Catholic Church is the opposite of ‘allowing it to be prevalent’.

On a website about the Scouts I would be saying the same thing.
 
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Valletta

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You didn't read correctly - I said "ä supreme court in the US" which is accurate - and I really don't care what state this occurred in - that's not the issue - pointing a finger at a particular state is irrelevant.



The Royal Commission in Australia has found that sadly wanting



Well too bad - by law in Australia, that priest will be criminally prosecuted if his actions ie failing to report child sexual abuse - whether disclosed in the confessional or not, become known.
This whole confessional line is an attack against freedom of religion and Christianity and distracts from real efforts to stop child abuse. As I've said, an individual can confess anonymously, with his or her identity hidden.
 
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Zoii

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This whole confessional line is an attack against freedom of religion and Christianity and distracts from real efforts to stop child abuse. As I've said, an individual can confess anonymously, with his or her identity hidden.
And that's fine - You nonetheless report that to the police. What was found in Australia was that priests would confess their actions, as would laypeople, and if anything the actions were either kept secret or actively covered up. This is a fact so there's little point in disputing it. The laws in Australia are aimed at addressing that but let's be clear - it's not aimed at the confessional, it's aimed at all Australian institutions with certain professionals having legal responsibilities to report child abuse or face prosecution. That you think religions should be exempt from that only serves to reinforce the concerns that the Royal Commission cited.
 
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Zoii

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Religious groups need to understand why the secular population continue to have concerns. The Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse uncovered extreme and widespread abuses that continued to occur to present time, and with concerted efforts to cover-up offences within their own ranks. Their actions were far removed from protecting the innocent, the children under their auspice.

It is an absurd accusation by some here, to purport that this is an attack on religious groups. Religious groups already hold exemptions from equal rights in my country. They can discriminate on the grounds of gender, being pregnant, and being homosexual. Although I disagree with those exemptions, I accept the status quo. I expect, with regards to the laws that stem from investigations into child sexual abuse, that religious groups stop their whining, and implement the laws of the land. To date, most religions in Australia have done just that - and gladly and willingly. There are a few stand out exceptions though - with regards to that cohort, don't expect secular society to be supportive of their self-protection values.
 
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Kylie

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In 2020, the Supreme court in Montana determined that reports to church officials of rape and child sexual abuse are not necessarily obliged to report the offence to law enforcement. The unanimous decision of the US Supreme court found for Jehova witnesses setting precedence for all other religious institutions.
Montana Court Reverses $35 Million Child Abuse Verdict Against Jehovah's Witnesses

Funny how all the people who cry out how laws permitting trans people to use the correct bathroom will also let sexual abusers accost little kids in the toilet have nothing to say about this.
 
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Valletta

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And that's fine - You nonetheless report that to the police. What was found in Australia was that priests would confess their actions, as would laypeople, and if anything the actions were either kept secret or actively covered up. This is a fact so there's little point in disputing it. The laws in Australia are aimed at addressing that but let's be clear - it's not aimed at the confessional, it's aimed at all Australian institutions with certain professionals having legal responsibilities to report child abuse or face prosecution. That you think religions should be exempt from that only serves to reinforce the concerns that the Royal Commission cited.
More baloney. As I said, confessions can be anonymous, Catholic priests take a vow, going down that line distracts from legitimate work to stop child abuse. Australia, they were the country that jailed that poor lady who lost a child to a dingo.
 
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Valletta

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Religious groups need to understand why the secular population continue to have concerns. The Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse uncovered extreme and widespread abuses that continued to occur to present time, and with concerted efforts to cover-up offences within their own ranks. Their actions were far removed from protecting the innocent, the children under their auspice.

It is an absurd accusation by some here, to purport that this is an attack on religious groups. Religious groups already hold exemptions from equal rights in my country. They can discriminate on the grounds of gender, being pregnant, and being homosexual. Although I disagree with those exemptions, I accept the status quo. I expect, with regards to the laws that stem from investigations into child sexual abuse, that religious groups stop their whining, and implement the laws of the land. To date, most religions in Australia have done just that - and gladly and willingly. There are a few stand out exceptions though - with regards to that cohort, don't expect secular society to be supportive of their self-protection values.
It's hardly absurd, it's blatant bigotry.
 
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partinobodycular

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going down that line distracts from legitimate work to stop child abuse.
Yes, you've repeated that claim a number of times now. But how exactly does it distract from legitimate efforts to stop child abuse?
 
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Paidiske

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going down that line distracts from legitimate work to stop child abuse.

I think we really need to take seriously that historically, confession has been part of a framework of covering up child abuse. It's not illegitimate to identify that and seek to address it. The question - for churches and governments - then becomes identifying what the best way to address it is.

Refusing to acknowledge where there's been a problem doesn't help restore trust, but rather makes the church seem more interested in protecting the institution than protecting children.
 
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Zoii

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More baloney. As I said, confessions can be anonymous, Catholic priests take a vow, going down that line distracts from legitimate work to stop child abuse. Australia, they were the country that jailed that poor lady who lost a child to a dingo.
They can continue confessionals but they cannot continue to cover up child rape under the guise of confessional. You can bleat all you want about it, but in Australia if said cover up is discovered, they will be jailed. It's irrelevant that you want that cover up to continue. And a 1970s case that overturned a false judgement in a murder trial will not be regarded as a defence for that priest. It will no doubt be regarded as an absurdly ridiculous argument, though for some reason it seems to be the only rational argument you can offer

And by the way, I see the logical value in a confessional. But if I was a priest I wouldn't be absolving that evil behaviour until the perpetrator also confessed to the police.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't know, maybe it's just me but I can't imagine feeling the same reassurance after talking to a priest, as I do after talking to God. But I've been doing it for a very long time, so maybe it's just me. Who knows.

It just seems to me that if you want to be assured that you're forgiven...all that you have to do is ask. God'll know if you're sincere, maybe you won't, and maybe a priest won't, but He will. Of course we in our human frailty are never quite sure, so it's good every once in a while to just sit and talk. Even if you feel like there's nobody there to listen, talk anyway. Because talking reveals repentance, and repentance begets forgiveness. So talk to God, maybe He's listening, and maybe He's not. The forgiveness will come all the same.

I know, you think that confession is important. But maybe what you consider confessing and what I consider talking are actually one and the same thing. It's just that you think that it requires a priest and perhaps some level of formality, and I don't.

Priests are no doubt wonderful people, and they may well have their place, but I just don't think that it's as an intercessory between me and God.

I didn't say that confession requires a priest. I said that some people find it helpful.

People are different. If you don't find confession with a priest helpful, you don't have to do it. But for those who do find it helpful, why begrudge it?

This sacrament has been of huge benefit to me. It has freed me from guilt, assisted me in bereavement following the death of my father, and delivered me from a lifelong irrational fear and hatred of hearses, among other spiritual benefits.

When it comes to pastoral care and the nuances thereof, however, @Paidiske is more knowledgeable than I. However, here is what I can tell you.
There are two ways to do confession, the first being auricular confession in complete , legally protected privacy with a priest. There are issues surrounding this and what to do when someone confesses paedophilia, hence this thread. However, this form, and the privacy and intimacy of it, has really helped me a great deal personally.

The other way is general confession via the liturgical confiteor, where the congregation prays for forgiveness for all sins they have committed and the priest absolves them without hearing the details. This is mainly done as the sole means of confession in low church Protestant churches, but it can be of benefit in promoting compunction and humility in any liturgical setting.

There is also a variant on this option, or a hybrid, if you like, implemented by St. John of Kronstadt, who is credited with restoring frequent reception of the Eucharist to the Russian Orthodox Church, whereas for a few centuries, following the Nikonian Schism, there was a problem similar to that which once plagued the Roman Catholic Church, where people would confess and partake of the Eucharist only once a year, despite it being served at every divine liturgy. Some priests grew accustomed to this, so while to my knowledge the gifts were never reserved for the priest as it used to be in Solemn Masses and the Mass of the Presanctified in the Roman Rite, and still is in the Armenian Rite during Lent (when paradoxically, every other Orthodox Church encourages more frequent communion), many people came to St. John’s parish on Sunday in the port city of Kronstadt adjacent to St. Petersburg, too many to hear all their confessions individually as per the Russian tradition of auricular confession before every divine liturgy or once a month plus the first time one attends the parish, so he had the entire congregation simultaneously shout their confessions, so they would drown each other out, and then absolved them and gave the Eucharist to each of them.
 
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