The Warped World of Incel Extremists

[TheWhat?]

I can’t speak for others, but I’m not pinning it on him, I just responded as to the connection in how they view women. Hefner had a lot of influence on society.

My view is not that porn creates incels, but that men who have no relationships with real women end up relying on porn and online platforms to form their ideas of women, and this is a bad thing. Most men consume porn but have lots of contact with women as family, friends, and lovers and know that porn is not an accurate depiction.

No doubt, porn, along with many other aspects of our culture today, probably influences their mentality.

 

[bèlla]

Okay I'll bite. This is a day in the life of bella on another site. I'm not correcting anything. No pics, indication of what I'm seeking in a man, or desire to have one. I said I'm not looking.
.........

Candidate 1: X is a nickname that suits you so much. I would like to be your puppeteer. Would you know me ?

My username has nothing to do with marionettes or puppetry. Next!

Candidate 2: SACRE BLEU; C'EST X - UNE FORMIDABLE LINGUIST!

Rarity of rarities, wee Xville ensconced X-mundo, this broadly cantankerous bugger has very much enjoyed a cursory peruse of your chatty, entertaining and 'leftfield-esque' profile text. Indeed; your 'particular' writing style would seem tae set you far apart from vast swathes of oor brethren - frankly; your rhetoric (alongside your most sensibly phrased, specific predilections), has tae be viewed as long overdue and a seldom encountered delight from within the general blandness that oft' ensues! Tres bien, wee yin.

Where do I begin? Exactly, next!

Candidate 3: Hello X I'm A. I found your profile and you seem like a terrific woman. You seem grounded and pleasant. Are you looking for or open to an honest, reliable, and consistent friend and partner to explore with and have fun together? Nothing happens overnight of course but I would like to get to know each other and see if we like each other and go from there. Would that be possible?

Open + honest = married or cheating. Next!

Candidate 4: Wow, your personal preferences completely meshes with my own. I would love to become friends with you and will send a request once I've sent this. You write well; that was a beautiful paragraph.

Previous connection. Friendly and sensible. Mutual acquaintances. Nothing more.

Candidate 5: I strongly believe that women are naturally intended to submit to men. I believe in patriarchy and in natural order where a woman is a property of a man. I believe, nevertheless, that submission should be classy, polite, elegant. Do this ideas offend you?

Absolutely. Next!

Candidate 6: How lovely. I want to know. I have never married / no kids, I wonder if ..... (Y) our new play palace is an interesting 16th century rebuild of an old school georgian colonial achitecture styled mansion. You will enter into a 2 storey foyer paved in Pakistani Onyx crawling up the circular stairway rising up to the 7 bedrooms and 7 bathrooms - plenty of space for preservation of (y)our sanity.

The indoor pool has maybe ten thousand carats of amethyst waterfalls flowing into it. We also have a barn and stables located behind the pool. Sharing and spoiling is caring. come see, enjoy, live & learn

*snipped for brevity*

Sincerely X
Call or text

Porn fodder gone awry. Next!

Candidate 7: Good morning X, I was reading a thread and noticed your profile. There is so much about it that strikes a chord with me. Might you have a moment to chat?

Sincerely, X

Polite and respectful. But you can't see my profile on a thread. Trying his luck anyway. Next!

Candidate 8: What you probably want is different from what I can offer, given the way your profile is written, but you're too beautiful that I'm going to ask anyway!
I was wondering, have you ever considered an online relationship? Oh and hello!

No. Only married men and cheaters seek the same. Next!

Candidate 9: Have you ever considered an experienced older man my age? Who better to train a girl like you than an older man like me? Take a chance and let's talk about it and see where it leads.

I didn't realize I needed a trainer. I'm not an animal. Next!

Candidate 10: My name is X, and I bumped into your profile on. I am extremely eager to make the acquaintance of others who also appreciate the finer things of culture, as it is not easy to meet fellow aficionados in most other walks of life.

Your profile suggests a fascination with X. I am less well directly acquainted with said X than they should be, although they are _de riguer_ in many of the social circles I travel in. I am more a student of the history that surrounded these great works and the lifestyles they depicted, but so much the better that I should converse with those who know the art and storytelling more intimately; who can give me the best recommendations, and the highest critiques.

I hope that we can become friends, sharing stories and interests, both musical and other artistic. I also hope that this message finds you in good health and spirits and I look forward to hearing from you soon!

Nice introduction. We chat from time to time.

........

This isn't the whole of my daily messages. But it sheds light on why many struggle. I'd never approach a stranger with these lines. Some are profoundly ridiculous. The Internet doesn't set aside propriety or conventions. More than a few missed the memo. I don't respond to them.

I met the person I'm engaging with now on this site in 2018. He was articulate, respectful, and an excellent conversationalist. The discourse fit our familiarity. It wasn't overly familiar, overly emotional, or desperate. He presented himself as a viable candidate in spite of his age and my ambivalence regarding it.

Today, I'm working with someone in their early twenties. Approximately, 5'6-5'9. No more than 115 pounds. She's Christian, marriage minded, and wants to be a stay-at-home wife and mother. She's attractive, believes in headship, and feminine.

I have no one to recommend. She's a rare find and requires someone who could handle her. She won't accept a weak-willed man. She wants a leader. Rightfully so. This is the state of things today.

It's not a question of non-existence or someone going off the rails. There's people in the market you'll never encounter until you get your act together. They won't look your way or recommend you to others.

............

@VCR-2000 This is what a trophy looks like in a Christian guise.

 

[bèlla]

Do young women today know that they want that?

I mean, if you make that same statement to a group of young women, will they assent that "safe and secure" is what they want from a man?

I engage with feminine women who respect themselves and the opposite sex and long for a companion who's responsible, God-fearing, and an exceptional leader. They're the ones I help. The women I interact with desire that. They want tradition, marriage, families, and headship.

 

[bèlla]

What are you talking about? Walking away from an explosion without looking back at it or suffering any injury is the sauvest thing you can do!

That was pretty bad. ~high fives

 

[rturner76]

No you don't. If you put that idea to the test you'd see the problem. Most men aren't popular or personable enough to overshadow everyone in their environment. Nevertheless, the majority find companions and settle down.

You don't need to be the prettiest, wealthiest, or most engaging unless you're pursuing someone from that realm.

RIght, that's why I was saying just a few simple things like daily grooming, bathing and lotioning makes a person feel good, new and shiny and it shows on your face that you feel good. If your clothes are ironed and you have on a clean pair of shoes, you have already put yourself a step ahead. Being able to be social is sooooo important. Women do want to talk to someone who is afraid. It shows when you are nervous. It involves taking a risk, and that holds many people back.

So, if you do all of the grooming and stuff and you can hold your own in a conversation, you just beat half the guys out there.

A lot of that isolation and fear of social situations can be made worse or even cause by depression. Depression can lead you to some dark places. Especially when you are one of these kids who's parents throw pills at them hoping to make them "normal." Some of them lower inhibitions and the .02% or whatever people that have a bad reaction may act out dark thoughts

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Quirky doesn't equal incompetent. You may not be Rico Suave but you're not doing this either!

Yeah, I guess you have a point there!

 

[rturner76]

Do young women today know that they want that?

I mean, if you make that same statement to a group of young women, will they assent that "safe and secure" is what they want from a man?

I don't think it's the first thing all of them would say but a few would. Not that they want a man who can beat people up but some guys give off a creepy vibe and they get on edge. I think it's more that they want to "feel" safe being with somebody. Kind of like a precursor to trusting them.

But I have had women say "When I'm with a guy, I just want to "feel safe." When they say that it's more than keeping bullies away, it's the emotional and physical safety and that "feeling" of being safe (whatever that means to her). She can relax and let her guard down.

 

[rturner76]

I think one thing these guys DON'T know or notice is how many times outgoing and good-looking guys get shot down. It's like trial and error. You're going out with a woman and you will inevitably do something to make them angry. Every time you go through that you learn self: "Ok, guess it's best not to jokes about whatever." or "I guess they don't like when you compliment them on......"

You learn more about people as you engage with them but I know these guys have crippling anxiety and or depression which makes it nearly impossible for them to strike up conversations with people. They start to resent society for making it hard to fit in. They want to break down the whole dynamic of the "jock" and the "nerd."

But it can't be done with firearms/fire

 

[bèlla]

RIght, that's why I was saying just a few simple things like daily grooming, bathing and lotioning makes a person feel good, new and shiny and it shows on your face that you feel good.

The things you mentioned are aspects of personal hygiene. I'm happy to touch on basics but there has to be common ground. If you're unwilling to bathe there's a problem.

If your clothes are ironed and you have on a clean pair of shoes, you have already put yourself a step ahead.

That's beyond adulting. You're addressing a level of dysfunction most people never reach.

Being able to be social is sooooo important. Women do want to talk to someone who is afraid. It shows when you are nervous. It involves taking a risk, and that holds many people back.

None of the women I know (including yours truly) will make a man talk. If he doesn't want to communicate we'll find someone who will.

So, if you do all of the grooming and stuff and you can hold your own in a conversation, you just beat half the guys out there.

I have never encountered a man who didn't care about hygiene or his appearance in some measure. What you're proposing may appeal to people with limited options. But the majority are looking for more than the bare minimum.

 

[RDKirk]

I think one thing these guys DON'T know or notice is how many times outgoing and good-looking guys get shot down. It's like trial and error. You're going out with a woman and you will inevitably do something to make them angry. Every time you go through that you learn self: "Ok, guess it's best not to jokes about whatever." or "I guess they don't like when you compliment them on......"

You learn more about people as you engage with them but I know these guys have crippling anxiety and or depression which makes it nearly impossible for them to strike up conversations with people. They start to resent society for making it hard to fit in. They want to break down the whole dynamic of the "jock" and the "nerd."

But it can't be done with firearms/fire

Again, I'd say part of the reason is that they haven't spent much time around other men, either, or they'd understand such things better.

 

[bèlla]

I think one thing these guys DON'T know or notice is how many times outgoing and good-looking guys get shot down.

There's two reasons for that. An absence of familiarity and personal connection. It's not enough to hear about the guy that did this or that. You need to be in his space. Which touches on your second comment.

You learn more about people as you engage with them but I know these guys have crippling anxiety and or depression which makes it nearly impossible for them to strike up conversations with people.

The people you described in the opening don't typically hangout with men like that. Their friends are a lot like them. Which is why they don't have the scoop.

They want to break down the whole dynamic of the "jock" and the "nerd."

The only time you see a man who doesn't struggle with women hanging with those who do is when he's selling something. They don't surround themselves with men like that in their inner circle. Nor do women.

You may encounter it in church. But in the world less so.

 

[That Guy 11200]

Who hasn't struggled with low self-esteem at certain points in their life? I'm pretty sure most people have, so I'm not buying that this robs them of choice somehow. Motivation, sure, but if you ever want to get out of the hole you're in (whether due to your own self-esteem issues or whatever), you're going to have to make up the deficit somehow. This is precisely where having a strong internal drive coming from somewhere (religion, a desire to show people up at a reunion, etc.) is very helpful, as you don't need to be constantly 'on' (fired up, etc.), but you do need a way to get yourself out of the doldrums when seem to be just existing, or worse.

Basically, you can be depressed forever (I do think there are some people whose chemistry predisposes them to this), but if you can't find a way to work from within that so as to not simply give in (i.e., turn into an incel/MGTOW loser), then things will probably never get better for you. Though I would still say that is not from lack of choice, but from a belief that things are bad now, and were bad then, and will always be bad, wah wah wah wah women don't like me and are also horrible for having standards that include not dating a whiny baby who both wants his way but doesn't want to change anything about himself to get it. Something's got to give but it can't be the other person's standards, because you have no control over those, only over what you do (or don't do).

So not only are you completely clueless about how devastating prolongued mental health issues can be to a person and how difficult it is to overcome them, but you also mock people who suffer from them.

This doesn't just apply to incels, and my post didn't imply that women should want to date them when they are at their lowest.

 

[bèlla]

This doesn't just apply to incels, and my post didn't imply that women should want to date them when they are at their lowest.

There are many people with mental health issues desiring companions. If you have practical advice for them you’re welcome to share. That isn’t outside of the scope of the OP.

 

[dzheremi]

So not only are you completely clueless about how devastating prolongued mental health issues can be to a person and how difficult it is to overcome them, but you also mock people who suffer from them.

I have no doubt that many incels do suffer from mental illness of some kind, but given how dangerous their narcissism and hatred has sometimes proven to be, it's not likely to elicit much sympathy from me on that basis alone.

This whole incel thing, when you really break it down, is just a bunch of whiners crying and obsessing over their supposed inability to find women to have sex/be in romantic relationships with. This is not about someone who came back from war psychologically scarred, or is suppressing horrible childhood abuse, or whatever. No, again, their chief issue, their entire reason for the existence of their movement, is "Women don't like us". Yeah...it's a real mystery...

So yeah, I'll mock that all day long. I'd never say to the individual self-described incel "Wow man, you're a complete loser" or whatever, but I would ask him why he feels like he needs to belong to a club that involves identifying himself as someone who is unsuccessful with women, particularly since I would assume he wants to actually be successful in that area more than anything. In that context, what's not to mock about a club for people who identify as losers? If we had some kind of "Worst dentists in the world club" or something, full of people who would proudly proclaim their incompetence in their chosen field, would we say "Oh, we definitely shouldn't mock the existence of this group, because at least some of the people in it must suffer from mental illness"? No. Obviously not.

This doesn't just apply to incels

Okay. That's who the thread's about, so that's who I'm discussing.

and my post didn't imply that women should want to date them when they are at their lowest.

Of course it didn't. I did not imply that it did. That is nevertheless the complaint around which the existence of this entire community/movement revolves, so that would be the background of the person who writes themselves off to the degree that they actually join one of these groups. Plenty of people suffer from depression, anxiety, or any number of other psychological conditions, but never think to become an incel over it.

 

[SarahsKnight]

He uploaded videos in which he fixated on his virginity and, in a direct reference to incel ideology, Davison's described himself as “blackpilled". This means that he believed himself too old, at 22, to find love.

Incels believe there is nothing they can ever do to improve their lives.

I couldn't really read any farther than this point. Being so frustrated over not getting laid that one would resort to hating an entire half of the human species and feel justified in going on a shooting spree to show his wrath against what he personally believes to be an unfair world, is just evil and idiotic on so many levels.

 

[bèlla]

I couldn't really read any farther than this point. Being so frustrated over not getting laid that one would resort to hating an entire half of the human species and feel justified in going on a shooting spree to show his wrath against what he personally believes to be an unfair world, is just evil and idiotic on so many levels.

I don’t believe most incels would resort to that extreme. But the company they keep provides a breeding ground for violence. When you’re inundated with rhetoric from engaging people—think Jim Jones types—who speak to your pain and make you feel heard it’s easy to be taken in.

Especially when you’re under the spell of an admitted advocate of forcible connection and sex. You don’t expect to hear someone arguing for the Handmaid’s Tale while offering an apologia for rape and male dominance.

If you feed your mind the same idea every day you’ll believe it after awhile. It seems right. You won’t see the truth without God’s involvement.

 

[MehGuy]

They may still get a lot of attention, but it's no longer men interested in long term relationships or marriage. They end up in a "where have all the good men gone" phase.

Yeah, I do wonder how millennial and younger generations of women will handle the realties of aging and being less valued in the dating market. From my own experience a lot of women around my age seem to be extremely delusional. Some harbor beliefs that men value older women less due to the sexist patriarchy wanting to hurt women and therefore this is an issue that can be overcome with social engineering. I am honestly surprised by such warped thinking. The idea that there was not evolutionary pressures that selected men to find women who at their peak fertility (around the age of 22) the most attractive and feminine compared to men who found women past their peak fertility years to be insane.

What frustrates me is that many of these women hold contrary beliefs that the fact that most women prefer taller men is due to evolutionary pressures, yet the idea of men preferring youthful women due to evolutionary pressures is just "red pill" thinking. Which is what I have been accused of when stating my own preferences for younger partners myself. Some have even gone as far to claim that men only like younger women due to psychological damage.

I will say as a society we better be consistent about how we treat unwanted men and unwanted women. Just as men are not owed sex and attention, the same goes for women. Making arguments and trying to gaslight men who are not attracted to older women is entitlement behavior.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yeah, I do wonder how millennial and younger generations of women will handle the realties of aging and being less valued in the dating market. From my own experience a lot of women around my age seem to be extremely delusional. Some harbor beliefs that men value older women less due to the sexist patriarchy wanting to hurt women and therefore this is an issue that can be overcome with social engineering. I am honestly surprised by such warped thinking. The idea that there was not evolutionary pressures that selected men to find women who at their peak fertility (around the age of 22) the most attractive and feminine compared to men who found women past their peak fertility years to be insane.

What frustrates me is that many of these women hold contrary beliefs that the fact that most women prefer taller men is due to evolutionary pressures, yet the idea of men preferring youthful women due to evolutionary pressures is just "red pill" thinking. Which is what I have been accused of when stating my own preferences for younger partners myself. Some have even gone as far to claim that men only like younger women due to psychological damage.

I will say as a society we better be consistent about how we treat unwanted men and unwanted women. Just as men are not owed sex and attention, the same goes for women. Making arguments and trying to gaslight men who are not attracted to older women is entitlement behavior.

I know what you mean...

I read a study that showed 2 trends. 1. That women generally want to date "up" (a man with a better education, a man who earns more money). 2. Women are more frequently graduating college and getting higher paying jobs.

This net result of this is an increasing number of women who are essentially pricing themselves out of the dating market. By the time they are settled in their careers at 30-35 the men they want that are 30-35 and make 150-200k+ are more interested in the 25 yo working as a waitress with a high school diploma. They have to significantly lower their "standards" or risk being single at 40.

Yet this was phrased a weird way....women are "recognizing their value" and won't settle for a man who they deem beneath them. If they were a 22yo guy, we'd just call them delusional.

 

[RDKirk]

Maybe he does, but when the genders are flipped the issue is more pronounced. There's an oft-quoted OKCupid study which found that female users found 80% of the male users on it as below-average in attractiveness, but males users gave a much more balanced appraisal of female users. This has been used to confirm an 80/20 rule in dating, which says that about 80% of the women are chiefly interested in the top 20% of most attractive guys. Whether this is true or accurate isn't important when discussing these men you are criticizing if you want to understand them - when you get rejected all the time, you're not in a position to challenge it and it seems that facts and statistics validate you as a person for once, so you have every reason to believe that. If you've been rejected, left, or cheated on, this is a ready explanation which seems to have merit. While there are guys who do act like absolute toads that this happens to, that doesn't account for the guys who did things right and this still happened to them, and this can explain both circumstances. This belief is not limited to incels; incels are just the least functional haters at the very bottom who may believe this.

As I've mentioned (perhaps too obliquely), society used to have mechanisms managed by older women in the community that functionally stratified the competition for mates. In effect, the older women of the community created "leagues" and drafted the youth of the community into the proper leagues from which they were to select mates.

Young men and young women understood that their pool of mates was confined to those who attended the same debutante ball (or whichever other means was used by the older women of that community to make that distinction). So there was not the situation of 80% of the women competing for the top 20% of men.

About a decade ago, I was talking to a first-generation immigrant from India talking about her plans for her children. She herself was Bengali and already knew which 500 Bengali families in the US formed the pool from which her children would choose their mates.

 

[bèlla]

As I've mentioned (perhaps too obliquely), society used to have mechanisms managed by older women in the community that functionally stratified the competition for mates. In effect, the older women of the community created "leagues" and drafted the youth of the community into the proper leagues from which they were to select mates.

The upper class is significantly more stratified than the rest. The emphasis on duty and social standing is more pronounced than elsewhere. There's lines you can't cross. Irrespective of looks, youth, etc. The bottom line is still same. They have to come to table with something worthwhile. That usually means money, power, or connections.

Dating up in this scenario is haves looking for haves and forming an alliance. Wealthy couples have different priorities. They don't have the best looking spouses (celebrities excluded). They form alignments that aid their ascent.

That world never went away. You can still attend debutante balls, finishing schools, and do the season. It depends on what you want.