The Warped World of Incel Extremists

[Sparagmos]

Incels don't have such genuine impediments that literally remove women from their physical surroundings.

I see pretty homely guys walking with women on their arms every day.

. Me too! And a lot of incels aren’t bad looking at all.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

The most Christian response to all of this, if you are absolutely convinced that women will not love you for whatever reason is voluntary celibacy, perhaps to become a monk. Much less destructive than the aforementioned worldly alternatives, right?

Lol, that's a hard saying!

 

[Sparagmos]

There's an oft-quoted OKCupid study which found that female users found 80% of the male users on it as below-average in attractiveness, but males users gave a much more balanced appraisal of female users. This has been used to confirm an 80/20 rule in dating, which says that about 80% of the women are chiefly interested in the top 20% of most attractive guys.

. That only applies to online dating, which is not the real world. There are more men than women on these sites, and it’s not the entire pool. The most important thing to understand about this phenomenon is that women are more attracted based on a guy’s personality and often will not initially find a man attractive physically, but after getting to know them find them attractive. In online dating, women are mostly just going by looks and when evaluating looks alone, it’s true that most men are not immediately attractive to most women. Whereas men do find women attractive purely based on looks. The other important factor is men are saying they are interested in sex when they choose a woman online, and so women may get chosen for sex, but immediately dumped and still aren’t getting what they want, even sexually because one night stand sex is often not satisfying for women.

And after a while, some will give up. Some of those may become incels, some may not

. But in Bella’s example, the guy is pursuing a woman completely out of his league. If you only Perdue women out of your league you will get rejected. If you don’t adjust your expectations, yes, you’re going to be disappointed. Personally, I used to get offended when a guy who was lacking in the realm of emotional maturity and personal charisma pursued me. I didn’t reject those guys over looks, but because they didn’t have anything to offer comparable to what I did. They expected something for nothing.

Because that would be their experience or at least observation of women.

Their observation of women online, in porn, on onlyfans, on Instagram. That’s not real life. It’s a sliver of reality swimming in commodification, objectification, and performance.

 

[Sparagmos]

Right, men aren't willing to approach women in real life, and most women aren't wanting to be approached in real life either as they are buried in their phones...on Tinder. lol

Most relationships don’t come from cold approaches. Women are more receptive to men they can observe in social settings and get to know a bit first. School, work, clubs, parties, etc. How would I know if I’m interested in a man who is a complete stranger? I know nothing about him.

 

[rturner76]

But women do the same thing.

There is a concept that still exists among men: "Dude, you're out of her league." This is a concept that is enforced among men. That is to say, men school other men on the limits of their real opportunities with women: "Ken gets Barbie, Fred gets Ethyl. You're not a 'Ken," dude, you're a 'Fred.'" Incels don't have foundational intra-gender relationships to know what kind of women they should expect.

This had also existed among women, but I'm not going to claim to know precisely how that intra-gender mechanism worked. I do realize, though, that back in the days of debutante balls and "coming out" parties, it was the women of the community who chose which young women and which young men would attend which parties...and that was how that worked at the time.

But it appears young women of today are all taught that Ethyl deserves Ken as much as Barbie does, and should not "settle" for Fred.

There is a YouTuber, a black woman, who used to be a professional matchmaker. She says that she gave up that job because the women who employed her had completely unrealistic expectations. They have her a list of a dozen or more "absolute requirements" that had disqualified 90% of all men by the second or third "requirement." And that was from women who had already acknowledge the need of a matchmaker.

Women need to face the fact: If they are going online to find a mate, they have already acknowledge a need to "settle." Women who don't have to settle don't need to go online. They already have the right guys waiting at the door.

That is all true, you have to stand out in the crowd to get noticed by either gender. The thing about women though is they don't load up the guns and go on a mass murder spree when they can't get the attention they are looking for.

Many women would go for a guy who dressed sharp, smelled god, have their own place, and had a decent job who could make her laugh. Things start changing for a guy who decided to put some effort into their appearance and go out on a limb and talk to people, men and women. You start to gain confidence which is really the #1 turn on for a lot of women. Sitting in front of the computer waiting for the perfect woman to drop out of the ceiling will always leave them frustrated.

 

[bèlla]

If a person has struggled with low self-esteem and depression most of their life, then there may not be any choice.

Women want someone who makes them feel safe and secure. How can you do that if you feel you're a loser?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Women want someone who makes them feel safe and secure. How can you do that if you feel you're a loser?

... somehow, I succeeded anyway!

 

[dzheremi]

If a person has struggled with low self-esteem and depression most of their life, then there may not be any choice.

Who hasn't struggled with low self-esteem at certain points in their life? I'm pretty sure most people have, so I'm not buying that this robs them of choice somehow. Motivation, sure, but if you ever want to get out of the hole you're in (whether due to your own self-esteem issues or whatever), you're going to have to make up the deficit somehow. This is precisely where having a strong internal drive coming from somewhere (religion, a desire to show people up at a reunion, etc.) is very helpful, as you don't need to be constantly 'on' (fired up, etc.), but you do need a way to get yourself out of the doldrums when seem to be just existing, or worse.

Basically, you can be depressed forever (I do think there are some people whose chemistry predisposes them to this), but if you can't find a way to work from within that so as to not simply give in (i.e., turn into an incel/MGTOW loser), then things will probably never get better for you. Though I would still say that is not from lack of choice, but from a belief that things are bad now, and were bad then, and will always be bad, wah wah wah wah women don't like me and are also horrible for having standards that include not dating a whiny baby who both wants his way but doesn't want to change anything about himself to get it. Something's got to give but it can't be the other person's standards, because you have no control over those, only over what you do (or don't do).

 

[bèlla]

That is all true, you have to stand out in the crowd to get noticed by either gender. The thing about women though is they don't load up the guns and go on a mass murder spree when they can't get the attention they are looking for.

No you don't. If you put that idea to the test you'd see the problem. Most men aren't popular or personable enough to overshadow everyone in their environment. Nevertheless, the majority find companions and settle down.

You don't need to be the prettiest, wealthiest, or most engaging unless you're pursuing someone from that realm.

 

[bèlla]

... somehow, I succeeded anyway!

You bring things to the table that compensate. I touched on that earlier.

 

[bèlla]

And a lot of incels aren’t bad looking at all.

I've never gotten that far!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You bring things to the table that compensate. I touched on that earlier.

Yes, I know you did. But I'm just trying to insinuate that somewhere along the way, at least in my case, I must have had a little extra Providential help.

 

[bèlla]

Yes, I know you did. But I'm just trying to insinuate that somewhere along the way, at least in my case, I must have had a little extra Providential help.

Quirky doesn't equal incompetent. You may not be Rico Suave but you're not doing this either!

 

[RDKirk]

Women want someone who makes them feel safe and secure.

Do young women today know that they want that?

I mean, if you make that same statement to a group of young women, will they assent that "safe and secure" is what they want from a man?

 

[dzheremi]

Quirky doesn't equal incompetent. You may not be Rico Suave but you're not doing this either!

What are you talking about? Walking away from an explosion without looking back at it or suffering any injury is the sauvest thing you can do!

 

[RDKirk]

What I'm talking about is the backgrounds of the low-level fighters that they shared after they were captured and interrogated.
Let's set the clock back to 2013 when ISIS was all over the news. If you're a 20-year old ISIS recruit from Iraq, you were 10 when the US toppled Sadaam and removed the security that the Baathists provided.
What were those 10 years like for you? How did they affect your development as a person?
A good number of them had to stay inside when they were younger because there was fighting going on. Your house might have been raided. You or your family likely knew people that died.
You didn't get to go out and do what Iraqi teenagers got to do between 1992 and 2002, part of you was stunted.
Eventually, you got old enough to fight, and there were militias around for you to join. If you're Sunni, you knew about Sunni-majority cities getting shelled by the majority Shiite government, and ISIS rising as a response to them. They become an increasingly attractive group to join as they win.
So young guys with stunted social development joined an Islamist militia which offered training, or at least an opportunity to sacrifice their lives in a holy war. They were offered an opportunity to become men, or at least go straight to Heaven, such a deal.
Those that were totally unskilled would be the suicide bombers. Those who had more potential were given other jobs, some of them were the "infantry."
If you take a socially stunted "infantry" guy, give him the religious conviction that he has the right to capture or purchase a bride for himself if he helps capture a village, and his unit captures the village, what do you think he's going to do? If most of the guys in his unit are also like that, what do you think they're all going to do?

Okay, I actually went over this in less detail. The difference between that ISIS fighter and an incel is that the ISIS fighter was physically removed by war from the opportunity to be that "normal teenager."

That is not the case with incels. They can go outside and do what teenagers do.

 

[RDKirk]

Some time ago in my readings, I had come across two letters written in the 1800s by people to their parents. One letter was written by a woman, one by a man, each speaking of their fiancé.

The woman's letter said, "He's not a looker, but he's kind, and he works hard."

The man's letter said, "She's not pretty, but she's right smart."

 

[TheWhat?]

Incels learn about women from porn. Hefner is a key figure in shaping that world. His derogatory ideas about women and incels’ ideas are similar.

Well, I haven't read enough hefner to make the connection. Seems an awful stretch though to pin it all on him, considering I've heard much worse than what was provided here, sometimes coming from the other sex.

The connection between porn and and incels seems a little problematic. A non-celibate can't be an incel by definition. And there's no link leading from porn use to becoming an incel any more than any other man, or woman.

 

[Sparagmos]

If a person has struggled with low self-esteem and depression most of their life, then there may not be any choice.

But most people who are open to do the work and change are able to find healing for low self-esteem and depression. If they can’t, then their should pursue women with the same or similar issues. They should not expect a woman to just date them because they feel sorry for them and want to help “fix” them. I’ve encountered that so many times. They were drawn to me because of my joi de vivre but brought none of their own. They did not care that they had no way to meet my needs.

 

[Sparagmos]

Well, I haven't read enough hefner to make the connection. Seems an awful stretch though to pin it all on him though,

I can’t speak for others, but I’m not pinning it on him, I just responded as to the connection in how they view women. Hefner had a lot of influence on society.

The connection between porn and and incels seems a little problematic. A non-celibate can't be an incel by definition. And there's no link leading from porn use to becoming an incel any more than any other man, or woman.

My view is not that porn creates incels, but that men who have no relationships with real women end up relying on porn and online platforms to form their ideas of women, and this is a bad thing. Most men consume porn but have lots of contact with women as family, friends, and lovers and know that porn is not an accurate depiction.