The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

[JM]

Anyone in this thread Postmil? We have a Postmil Safe House now.

Post Millennialism safe house

 

[Freedm]

Post mil? I've never chatted with a post mil before. I'd be interested to hear how they explain that.

 

[JM]

Post mil? I've never chatted with a post mil before. I'd be interested to hear how they explain that.

I think Postmil and orthodox preterism go hand in hand. I'm new to the position but happy to (attempt) to answer questions if you have any. Can't promise to convince you though.

 

[Freedm]

I think Postmil and orthodox preterism go hand in hand. I'm new to the position but happy to (attempt) to answer questions if you have any. Can't promise to convince you though.

Well, I'd just really love to hear why you think the millennium is already finished. And wouldn't that imply that we no longer reign with Christ?

 

[JM]

Well, I'd just really love to hear why you think the millennium is already finished. And wouldn't that imply that we no longer reign with Christ?

Postmillennialism see the Kingdom as progressing slowly over time.

A chart I made.

Postmillennialism Chart

 

[parousia70]

Well, I'd just really love to hear why you think the millennium is already finished. And wouldn't that imply that we no longer reign with Christ?

Does Premil believe that after the Milennium is over we no longer reign with Christ?

 

[parousia70]

Well, I'd just really love to hear why you think the millennium is already finished.

Here's why I do.
The Bible itself proves there is no literal, FUTURE, earthly millennium. The "evidence" is in the apostolic eschatological doctrine that prohibits any view of the "millennium" that portrays it as a future, literal, earthly epoch. A simple examination of the NT epistles shows that there is no future historical "thousand-years" period. We know this with certainty, for the apostles explicitly identified the precise timing of the resurrection, the judgment, and the New Heaven/Earth -- they all occur at the coming of Jesus Christ, thus proving that there is no literal "thousand years" that separates these events out over time.

(1) The resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:23)

(2) The judgment occurs at the coming of Christ (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)

(3) The "New Heavens/Earth" occurs at the coming of Christ -- i.e., the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Pet 3:10/1 Thess 5:2)

These key eschatological events all occur at the precise moment of the coming of Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as the apostles themselves understood, there is no literal, historic millennium separating them.

The popular millennialist maps separate these three eschatological events by a period of 1000 temporal, earthly years--or, in some cases, 1007 years. The bible doesn't allow it. The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." Once we understand the plain truth of this, we can turn our efforts to understanding the apostolic teaching of the "thousand years" as a typological symbol--one of many in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.

What is it a Typological Symbol of?
I would argue The Thousand years is a typological reference to the length of the Davidic Monarchy, from David, the first King in the line, to Christ, the Final, and Completion/Restoration of the Line, which is a period of...

wait for it......

1000 LITERAL years!

The "Thousand years" shows that Christ fulfilled the hopes of the Davidic Monarchy that Christ would fill David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Timothy 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restore the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-17) so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah. The 1000 years shows a completed Monarchy instead of the fact that the Monarchy had fallen into ruin in the 500s BC via the Babylonian captivity.

David and Christ being the only 2 Kings in the line that matter, David the type, Christ the antitype, or fulfillment.

Christ fulfilled what all other kings in the line failed to do, thus bringing completion to, and fulfilling the purpose for, the Davidic monarchy, which was the "1000 year reign".

Again, the idea of a thousand years reign with Israel's Monarchy was an Old Testament hope -- one that was wished for but failed. The hopes of this glorious reign were laid out when Solomon took the throne after David. It was said that Israel would walk in the covenant blessings, and so much so that the Gentiles would come into the covenant (such as the Queen of Sheba's homage to Solomon). However, the "tabernacle of David" began to quickly crumble, and fell into total ruin by the time of the Babylonian exile. This all summarizes an OT type. Now, fast-forward to all the NT typology about Jesus being the TRUE "son of David" who was born as THE MESSIANIC HEIR to David's throne for raising up the Monarchy. This is what Revelation 20 is doing. It is using the Davidic Monarchy typology and applying it to Christ and the martyr-kings who reign in the Christic Monarchy, and it does so in exactly the same typological sense as other types we are more familiar with (Jesus is the "sacrifical lamb," etc). In Revelation 20 we see Jesus and his tribulation-martyr-kings reign; they defeat satan; they bring in the gentiles; and they judge the world. These are all the things hoped for in the OT times, but fulfilled in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant Church. The Church has all dominion with Christ over heaven and earth, satan was defeated, the gentles are now in the covenant, and Christ and the Church are the judges of the whole world.

Amazing LITERAL History.

 

[Freedm]

Does Premil believe that after the Milennium is over we no longer reign with Christ?

I always thought so. When the text says "they reigned with Christ a thousand years", the implication is that the reign ends when the thousand years ends.

 

[parousia70]

I always thought so. When the text says "they reigned with Christ a thousand years", the implication is that the reign ends when the thousand years ends.

Weird...I wonder what they believe then happens after their Reign gets stripped from them?

 

[Freedm]

Weird...I wonder what they believe then happens after their Reign gets stripped from them?

Perhaps there will then no longer be anyone to reign over?

 

[parousia70]

Perhaps there will then no longer be anyone to reign over?

Isaiah 9:7 comes to mind...
Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

 

[Freedm]

Isaiah 9:7 comes to mind...
Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

To be clear, Revelation 20 does not imply that Jesus' reign ends (although 1 Cor 15 does) it only implies that our reign with him will end after a "thousand years". 1 Corinthians 15 however tells us that Jesus hands over the kingdom to God the father, implying that Jesus' reign ends.

 

[JM]

Mandatory vax and passports got you down? Watch this for the first time or again.

 

[Freedm]

Since that's a two hour long video can you give us a little summary so we know what it's about?

 

[JM]

Since that's a two hour long video can you give us a little summary so we know what it's about?

Sure, the documentary deals with biblical arguments for orthodox preterism and postmillennialism. It encourages the Church to boldly proclaim the Gospel in our country and the world. Some believe we are living in a post-Christian society but as Postmil we believe we are still living in the early church and a pre-Christian era. The documentary looks at Dispensationalism and the creators move from Dispey to orthodox preterist posmil and includes interviews with evangelical pastors, leaders and teachers.

More info on orthodox preterism postmillennialism here: Post Millennialism safe house

 

[FredVB]

To be clear, Revelation 20 does not imply that Jesus' reign ends (although 1 Cor 15 does) it only implies that our reign with him will end after a "thousand years". 1 Corinthians 15 however tells us that Jesus hands over the kingdom to God the father, implying that Jesus' reign ends.

Unless it is that Jesus as the incarnation is God with the heavenly Father still, such that his reign is on behalf of the Father, and afterward God reigns, the heavenly Father with Jesus as King, maybe being known in a new way rather than what is revealed for us in this age.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

To be clear, Revelation 20 does not imply that Jesus' reign ends (although 1 Cor 15 does) it only implies that our reign with him will end after a "thousand years". 1 Corinthians 15 however tells us that Jesus hands over the kingdom to God the father, implying that Jesus' reign ends.

This is from my book I'm writing:

23 But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming, 24 then the end, when He shall hand over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He shall have annulled all dominion, and all authority and power. 25 For it behooves Him to reign until He shall have put all the enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy to be abolished is death. 27 For “He has put in subjection all things under His feet.” But when it may be said that all things have been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all things to Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

These verses are not to be disconnected from one another. Paul is using a literary device common in scripture. Saying the same thing different ways in hope of getting the reader to think and understand what is being said. The end in verse 24 is the cross. The cross and his resurrection is the end of verse 23's advent of the messiah. That is where he handed the kingdom over to God and the father. After he annulled and rendered powerless all earthly dominion and authority! Now verses 23-24 are repeated and enlarged on in verses 25-28. Jesus came as king. The enemies he reigned over, that were put in subjection to him under his feet were thus: Mobs of angry people. The elements, he had power to change them or create them. He reigned over the animal kingdom. He had complete power over sickness , disease, disabilities. He ruled over demons and their effects on the humans. He reigned over death. He had authority over the earth, the wind, the sea. He had power over human government and their soldiers. John 16: 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. The Greek definition for the word overcome here is to conquer and prevail over. It implies a battle and subduing ones opponents. It is quite clear that Jesus ruled over every aspect of the natural world. There was nothing left outside of his authority. Everything was put in subjection under his feet. The last enemy to be abolished, verse 26, was death. That is a direct reference to his resurrection. Verse 27 explains that everything that exists was put in subjection to him by God the Father, with the exception of God the Father. So verse 28 is a repeat of verse 24. Jesus handed the kingdom over to God the Father and put himself in subjection to him in the Garden of Gethsemane. Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Why did he do all this? The end of verse 28 says. That God may be all in all. Or like Hebrews 5: says. That he would be the author of eternal salvation to all that obey him.


So if your like me or a billion other Christians out there. By default we just read the "end times" right into this passage. The pop culture we were raised in inculcated that into us almost as an inheritance. We thought this was talking about Jesus coming back some day and putting all earthly powers under his feet and tied that into an event we called the resurrection. Not realizing everything was put in subjection under him as he walked this earth and at that point he laid that kingdom down at the Fathers feet at the cross. Then emerged victorious over physical death also. Making himself the author of eternal salvation for all that obey him through faith.

 

[Freedm]

So if your like me or a billion other Christians out there. By default we just read the "end times" right into this passage. The pop culture we were raised in inculcated that into us almost as an inheritance. We thought this was talking about Jesus coming back some day and putting all earthly powers under his feet and tied that into an event we called the resurrection. Not realizing everything was put in subjection under him as he walked this earth...

I'm with you 100%, but I only came to this understanding late last year. In fact, I thank covid for this because it prompted me to better understand the mark of the beast as I feared it was upon us, but in studying the book of Revelation from a preterist perspective (for the first time in my life), suddenly this all made sense to me. I now can read the same verses I've read a hundred times before and understand them in a completely different way. It's kind of mind blowing actually.

 

[Gundy22]

A 42-month period mentioned in Revelation - is it already past?

 

[parousia70]

A 42-month period mentioned in Revelation - is it already past?

The Seige of Jerusalem, from 66-70AD, was indeed 42 months long.