Question around someone converting to orthodoxy...

[Malleeboy]

I know this is the debate section, but I wasn't sure how my post would be responded to elsewhere (Cause it is bring typed with considerable anguish, I apologize it is a rant in pain)
I have an 18 year old son, who has become interested in Orthodoxy.
(He has promised to work through scripture and the early church documents with me)
My family are evangelical protestants.

Do I have it correct that if he commits to Orthodoxy it would mean:
He cannot take communion with his family.
He cannot attend a church service with his family, except for weddings and funerals
He cannot pray with us (we have had a 5 min together nearly ever night since the boys were infants).
So that the next time we will be in church together would when I'm dead, and only then begrudgingly.
Of course I have the hope that we both (with the grace of God) be together in heaven.

I get the need from your perspective to defend truth, however it is said of God "that your kindness leads to repentance".

All the Orthodox that I have meant in person are so nominal and uncommitted to being a disciple of Jesus, it is largely just a cultural things they do once or twice a year. So my son could pray with utterly luke warm, apathetic orthodox people but has to effectively spiritual shun his own family.

This seems on par with the JW's and the Plymouth Exclusive Brethren.

I believe the separation of his body (the church) from each other causes great sorrow for Jesus, and I for one would wish that we could live out the ones of Ephesian 4. But if my son joins Orthodoxy, I will get some idea of what being a "man of sorrows" means, cause at the moment I cannot feel that a day would pass but the sorrow of the separation would not hurt.

Now I get you will say it is for vital truths, and of course despite that I ascribe to both Nicaea/Chalcedon, baptism as a saving sacrament, even the theotokos, unless I choose to "enthnicize" to your ethnically drenched churches, the separation with my son must but be maintained. Given your churches cut communion over if Estonia could have its own church, and now over if Ukraine having its own church, to rank outsider I'm just not that it is anything to do with the love of Jesus.

I apologize if this is an uncharitable rant, we all need the mercy and love of God. I'm just not sure tearing families apart is the best way to live Jesus message out to the world but these are your churches. I can only hope that the LORD hastens his return to minimize the pain we cause another.

 

[HTacianas]

I know this is the debate section, but I wasn't sure how my post would be responded to elsewhere (Cause it is bring typed with considerable anguish, I apologize it is a rant in pain)
I have an 18 year old son, who has become interested in Orthodoxy.
(He has promised to work through scripture and the early church documents with me)
My family are evangelical protestants.

Do I have it correct that if he commits to Orthodoxy it would mean:
He cannot take communion with his family.
He cannot attend a church service with his family, except for weddings and funerals
He cannot pray with us (we have had a 5 min together nearly ever night since the boys were infants).
So that the next time we will be in church together would when I'm dead, and only then begrudgingly.
Of course I have the hope that we both (with the grace of God) be together in heaven.

I get the need from your perspective to defend truth, however it is said of God "that your kindness leads to repentance".

All the Orthodox that I have meant in person are so nominal and uncommitted to being a disciple of Jesus, it is largely just a cultural things they do once or twice a year. So my son could pray with utterly luke warm, apathetic orthodox people but has to effectively spiritual shun his own family.

This seems on par with the JW's and the Plymouth Exclusive Brethren.

I believe the separation of his body (the church) from each other causes great sorrow for Jesus, and I for one would wish that we could live out the ones of Ephesian 4. But if my son joins Orthodoxy, I will get some idea of what being a "man of sorrows" means, cause at the moment I cannot feel that a day would pass but the sorrow of the separation would not hurt.

Now I get you will say it is for vital truths, and of course despite that I ascribe to both Nicaea/Chalcedon, baptism as a saving sacrament, even the theotokos, unless I choose to "enthnicize" to your ethnically drenched churches, the separation with my son must but be maintained. Given your churches cut communion over if Estonia could have its own church, and now over if Ukraine having its own church, to rank outsider I'm just not that it is anything to do with the love of Jesus.

I apologize if this is an uncharitable rant, we all need the mercy and love of God. I'm just not sure tearing families apart is the best way to live Jesus message out to the world but these are your churches. I can only hope that the LORD hastens his return to minimize the pain we cause another.

Consider converting to Orthodoxy with your son.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

If your son agrees to those implications (not that I know anything about liturgical churches) but if he knows the implications and chooses that then it’s best to pray and stand, continue to keep your own armour about you, especially His righteousness because it covers your heart.

(edited to remove quote so not to have post removed.)

 

[rhomphaeam]

I know this is the debate section, but I wasn't sure how my post would be responded to elsewhere (Cause it is bring typed with considerable anguish, I apologize it is a rant in pain)
I have an 18 year old son, who has become interested in Orthodoxy.
(He has promised to work through scripture and the early church documents with me)
My family are evangelical protestants.

Do I have it correct that if he commits to Orthodoxy it would mean:
He cannot take communion with his family.
He cannot attend a church service with his family, except for weddings and funerals
He cannot pray with us (we have had a 5 min together nearly ever night since the boys were infants).
So that the next time we will be in church together would when I'm dead, and only then begrudgingly.
Of course I have the hope that we both (with the grace of God) be together in heaven.

I get the need from your perspective to defend truth, however it is said of God "that your kindness leads to repentance".

All the Orthodox that I have meant in person are so nominal and uncommitted to being a disciple of Jesus, it is largely just a cultural things they do once or twice a year. So my son could pray with utterly luke warm, apathetic orthodox people but has to effectively spiritual shun his own family.

This seems on par with the JW's and the Plymouth Exclusive Brethren.

I believe the separation of his body (the church) from each other causes great sorrow for Jesus, and I for one would wish that we could live out the ones of Ephesian 4. But if my son joins Orthodoxy, I will get some idea of what being a "man of sorrows" means, cause at the moment I cannot feel that a day would pass but the sorrow of the separation would not hurt.

Now I get you will say it is for vital truths, and of course despite that I ascribe to both Nicaea/Chalcedon, baptism as a saving sacrament, even the theotokos, unless I choose to "enthnicize" to your ethnically drenched churches, the separation with my son must but be maintained. Given your churches cut communion over if Estonia could have its own church, and now over if Ukraine having its own church, to rank outsider I'm just not that it is anything to do with the love of Jesus.

I apologize if this is an uncharitable rant, we all need the mercy and love of God. I'm just not sure tearing families apart is the best way to live Jesus message out to the world but these are your churches. I can only hope that the LORD hastens his return to minimize the pain we cause another.

It isn't possible to covert to the Eastern Church unless you live in the East. Despite what is now in the West little of what is called Easter Orthodoxy - be that Greek - Russian or Syriac - bears little resemblance to the Eastern Churches. The Eastern churches have already borne the cost of failing to be united in a true canonical faith and Islam devoured them with the sword beginning in 625 after the death of Muhammed. Today these same churches are more spirit filled than many counterparts in the Evangelical faith you hold. And Islam is still grinding them down with terror and oppression. Thats not to say that the West is going to escape the same outcome as the Eastern Churches - it may simply mean that there will be more sorrow before there will be joy.

But your comment is about the implication of losing your son - and to that what can any father say?

It is a matter of authority. Would a father in sorrow at his sense of impending loss preserve his son in the unity of his family or would he trust God knowing that he has delivered his son into a living faith? It very much depends on authority of fathers and mothers in agreement. Your personal grief and fear may be misplaced because no church can undo what a father and a mother have put into place. Save for only one cause - Christ. And seeing as you have sown into your son a true faith in Christ then the Eastern Churches in your sight can only agree with that which is agreed upon and the rest is worthless garbage. Save only for your parental authority and the pain.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

wow, learn something new every day. It sounds like comparing God of his upbringing and saying that was a different god. How self-righteous is that? Nothing new there. The difference is in the mother of the liturgy not being the new Jerusalem I suppose. Same Father but different mother to us, different Father and mother to them.

 

[HTacianas]

It isn't possible to covert to the Eastern Church unless you live in the East. Despite what is now in the West little of what is called Easter Orthodoxy - be that Greek - Russian or Syriac - bears little resemblance to the Eastern Churches. The Eastern churches have already borne the cost of failing to be united in a true canonical faith and Islam devoured them with the sword beginning in 625 after the death of Muhammed. Today these same churches are more spirit filled than many counterparts in the Evangelical faith you hold. And Islam is still grinding them down with terror and oppression. Thats not to say that the West is going to escape the same outcome as the Eastern Churches - it may simply mean that there will be more sorrow before there will be joy.

But your comment is about the implication of losing your son - and to that what can any father say?

It is a matter of authority. Would a father in sorrow at his sense of impending loss preserve his son in the unity of his family or would he trust God knowing that he has delivered his son into a living faith? It very much depends on authority of fathers and mothers in agreement. Your personal grief and fear may be misplaced because no church can undo what a father and a mother have put into place. Save for only one cause - Christ. And seeing as you have sown into your son a true faith in Christ then the Eastern Churches in your sight can only agree with that which is agreed upon and the rest is worthless garbage. Save only for your parental authority and the pain.

... what is called Easter Orthodoxy - be that Greek - Russian or Syriac - bears little resemblance to the Eastern Churches.

That would come as quite the shock to the Eastern Churches.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Bears quite a resemblance to Christ being divided and sent to every Paul, Apollo and Cephus named except those who adhere strictly to His Name.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It isn't possible to covert to the Eastern Church unless you live in the East. Despite what is now in the West little of what is called Easter Orthodoxy - be that Greek - Russian or Syriac - bears little resemblance to the Eastern Churches. The Eastern churches have already borne the cost of failing to be united in a true canonical faith and Islam devoured them with the sword beginning in 625 after the death of Muhammed. Today these same churches are more spirit filled than many counterparts in the Evangelical faith you hold. And Islam is still grinding them down with terror and oppression. Thats not to say that the West is going to escape the same outcome as the Eastern Churches - it may simply mean that there will be more sorrow before there will be joy.

But your comment is about the implication of losing your son - and to that what can any father say?

It is a matter of authority. Would a father in sorrow at his sense of impending loss preserve his son in the unity of his family or would he trust God knowing that he has delivered his son into a living faith? It very much depends on authority of fathers and mothers in agreement. Your personal grief and fear may be misplaced because no church can undo what a father and a mother have put into place. Save for only one cause - Christ. And seeing as you have sown into your son a true faith in Christ then the Eastern Churches in your sight can only agree with that which is agreed upon and the rest is worthless garbage. Save only for your parental authority and the pain.

no offense, but this is a rediculously historically ignorant and incorrect thing to say.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I know this is the debate section, but I wasn't sure how my post would be responded to elsewhere (Cause it is bring typed with considerable anguish, I apologize it is a rant in pain)
I have an 18 year old son, who has become interested in Orthodoxy.
(He has promised to work through scripture and the early church documents with me)
My family are evangelical protestants.

Do I have it correct that if he commits to Orthodoxy it would mean:
He cannot take communion with his family.
He cannot attend a church service with his family, except for weddings and funerals
He cannot pray with us (we have had a 5 min together nearly ever night since the boys were infants).
So that the next time we will be in church together would when I'm dead, and only then begrudgingly.
Of course I have the hope that we both (with the grace of God) be together in heaven.

I get the need from your perspective to defend truth, however it is said of God "that your kindness leads to repentance".

All the Orthodox that I have meant in person are so nominal and uncommitted to being a disciple of Jesus, it is largely just a cultural things they do once or twice a year. So my son could pray with utterly luke warm, apathetic orthodox people but has to effectively spiritual shun his own family.

This seems on par with the JW's and the Plymouth Exclusive Brethren.

I believe the separation of his body (the church) from each other causes great sorrow for Jesus, and I for one would wish that we could live out the ones of Ephesian 4. But if my son joins Orthodoxy, I will get some idea of what being a "man of sorrows" means, cause at the moment I cannot feel that a day would pass but the sorrow of the separation would not hurt.

Now I get you will say it is for vital truths, and of course despite that I ascribe to both Nicaea/Chalcedon, baptism as a saving sacrament, even the theotokos, unless I choose to "enthnicize" to your ethnically drenched churches, the separation with my son must but be maintained. Given your churches cut communion over if Estonia could have its own church, and now over if Ukraine having its own church, to rank outsider I'm just not that it is anything to do with the love of Jesus.

I apologize if this is an uncharitable rant, we all need the mercy and love of God. I'm just not sure tearing families apart is the best way to live Jesus message out to the world but these are your churches. I can only hope that the LORD hastens his return to minimize the pain we cause another.

to your questions:

correct, he cannot take communion outside of Orthodoxy.
correct, he can't deny going to the Liturgy (although, exceptions can be made for special occasions. this is something for him to work out with his priest).
he shouldn't participate in the prayers, but he still can be with you as you pray. but again, this is something between him and his priest.

Lord have mercy.

 

[rhomphaeam]

no offense, but this is a rediculously historically ignorant and incorrect thing to say.

What is a ridiculously historically ignorant and incorrect thing to say? You haven't said!

 

[ArmyMatt]

What is a ridiculously historically ignorant and incorrect thing to say? You haven't said!

your "history" of the Eastern Church.

 

[rhomphaeam]

your "history" of the Eastern Church.

Which history precisely? It may be easier to insult me or at least what I have said by stating what I said that is wrong. You can't offend me. Why can't you be explicit rather than anecdotal?

 

[HTacianas]

Which history precisely? It may be easier to insult me or at least what I have said by stating what I said that is wrong. You can't offend me. Why can't you be explicit rather than anecdotal?

You said, in effect, the Eastern Church is not the Eastern Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Which history precisely? It may be easier to insult me or at least what I have said by stating what I said that is wrong. You can't offend me. Why can't you be explicit rather than anecdotal?

1. it isn't possible to convert to the Church of the East unless you are in the East.

false. I converted and am clergy. Orthodoxy has been continuously in the West since 1794. many on here are converts.

2. Eastern Orthodoxy in the West bears little resemblance to the East.

I have served with clergy from the East, and it took little direction for all of us to be on the same page. as a more specific example, Elder Ephraim established monasteries in the US so that we would have the liturgical cycles like those on Mt Athos.

3. the Eastern Churches are failing at being united in canonical Faith.

again, false. no full break has occurred, so our unity isn't fully severed. this is also nothing new.

4. Islam devoured Orthodoxy starting in 625.

again, no. the Byzantine Empire continued to thrive, even after Islam. not to mention the Slavic lands which converted and Islam didn't reach.

 

[rhomphaeam]

You said, in effect, the Eastern Church is not the Eastern Church.

I didn't say anything in an effect, I said that the Eastern Churches in the West bear little resemblance to the Eastern Orthodox Church in the East.

1. it isn't possible to convert to the Church of the East unless you are in the East.

false. I converted and am clergy. Orthodoxy has been continuously in the West since 1794. many on here are converts.

2. Eastern Orthodoxy in the West bears little resemblance to the East.

I have served with clergy from the East, and it took little direction for all of us to be on the same page. as a more specific example, Elder Ephraim established monasteries in the US so that we would have the liturgical cycles like those on Mt Athos.

3. the Eastern Churches are failing at being united in canonical Faith.

again, false. no full break has occurred, so our unity isn't fully severed. this is also nothing new.

4. Islam devoured Orthodoxy starting in 625.

again, no. the Byzantine Empire continued to thrive, even after Islam. not to mention the Slavic lands which converted and Islam didn't reach.

I expect you would be rather upset then if I gave you evidence that the Syriac Church in Jerusalem holds a different view to your western precepts. They cite when the splits occurred in precise detail.

 

[HTacianas]

I dint say anything in an effect, I said that the Estern Churches in the West bear little re


I expect you would be rather upset then if I gave you evidence that the Syriac Church in Jerusalem holds a different view to your western precepts. They cite when the splits occurred in precise detail.

You can try me if you like.

 

[All4Christ]

Before I started exploring Orthodoxy, I only knew nominal Orthodox Christians and I know my parents would be crushed if I became a nominal Christian like the ones we knew then. I learned, however, that I had just met some ethnic nominal Orthodox Christians - not those who truly follow the Orthodox faith. Remember - there are plenty of nominal Evangelical Protestants as well. They exist everywhere.

My church is part of the Orthodox Church of America. We have the Orthodox faith, but 75% of us are converts. We aren’t an ethnic church. The people there passionately love Christ, and want to follow Him with all our hearts. You don’t need to be ethnic to be Orthodox. (This isn’t limited to the Orthodox Church of America.)

My parents had a hard time understanding, but they attended church with my a few times - they still come at least once during Lent and once around Christmas time - and they have come to appreciate certain things about our faith. They appreciate that in my priest’s sermons, he (and the Church) won’t back down from the truth. He just says what is right even if it is countercultural. They appreciate that we believe Scripture is 100% true. Our morality is the same. Most importantly, I still hold to the truth of the death and resurrection of Christ, love God with all my heart and try to follow Him always.

Try to learn the commonalities between the faith and also learn about the differences.

Remember - even if he can’t skip liturgy to go to another parish on Sunday - you can attend with him. (Attending your church is a topic for him to discuss with his priest). You are still able to pray for each other. He is not leaving Christianity.

My priest said in the sermon at my chrismation that I am not abandoning the faith of my childhood. Becoming Orthodox was the fulfillment of the faith of my childhood. My journey to Orthodoxy is very special to me - and having my family support me despite the disagreements meant so much to me. We all love God - and they are thankful that I am a follower of God even if I’m not in the same church.

 

[rhomphaeam]

You can try me if you like.

Why would I do that? I would like to see some material substance to the claims. One thing that seems to have substance is that the brother who spoke of his son can only expect to be refused by the church he may join. He knew that the moment he did his own research. Unless of course he also enters into the five fold liturgical process of entering into full salvation. What then if he reaches Marriage and seeing that he is already married to the woman who gave birth to his son - he then realises that she is also rejected and cannot then enter into a full fellowship with his own wife? Is that really what Christ requires? So the priest absolves them and all is well. Nonsense.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I didn't say anything in an effect, I said that the Eastern Churches in the West bear little resemblance to the Eastern Orthodox Church in the East.




I expect you would be rather upset then if I gave you evidence that the Syriac Church in Jerusalem holds a different view to your western precepts. They cite when the splits occurred in precise detail.

to your first point, you're incorrect. if I serve with them, we use the same services, then we don't bear "little resemblance" to each other.

to your second point, seing as how I know Syriac folks, you're wrong. non-Chalcedonians are not who we are talking about. and that was a full schism, which means we don't view them as Orthodox even though they claim the name.

read history more and assume less.

 

[rhomphaeam]

to your first point, you're incorrect. if I serve with them, we use the same services, then we don't bear "little resemblance" to each other.

to your second point, seing as how I know Syriac folks, you're wrong. non-Chalcedonians are not who we are talking about. and that was a full schism, which means we don't view them as Orthodox even though they claim the name.

read history more and assume less.

You should have been a Calvinist. You have a belly for it.