When did “consciousness” enter the Universe?

[SelfSim]

Good idea, but I don't think consciousness can be defined.

Certainly not yet in any objective sense.
Philosophers have spent thousand of years trying to do it, all to no avail (as usual) - that's because they're always trying to discover definitions .. rather than just doing the work in classifying meanings by their objectively demonstrable contexts.

That's why I chose to focus on what you're trying to incorporate consciousness into, (ie: the universe). Universes are much easier to define and understand, because they're testable models.

 

[durangodawood]

Your taste sensation happens once your taste receptors feed data to your brain where, once the beer is consumed, it gets interpreted and expressed as 'being good' and 'is real'. That's what those words mean in that situation.
Same process happens for all of your other sensory data.

The bit about all that data coming from something independent from your mind's perceptions and thence the descriptions employing those words, is just the Big Belief because there is no objective test which can be applied, that demonstrably returns the evidence which would permit decoupling the perceptions from other perceptions our brains concoct .. like adding more beliefs.

Your default of reducing our feel for reality to a stream of sense data is getting kind of irritating. There's so much more out there coming at us.

 

[Bradskii]

Who said anything about personal manifestations and figments of your imagination? Certainly not me. Those terms mean other things than when I say the kitchen, the fridge and the beer I'm in need of, all exist. If you don't think they do, then I'd advise seeing a psychiatrist(?)

You're interpreting all this from your fixed (believed) viewpoint that things exist inside and outside of my mind. That's not what the MDR hypothesis is about and in fact it explicitly excludes those notions because they're just based on the Big Belief (ie: mind independent existence).

Whether that IPA exists or not independent of my thinking about it, it's a lot easier to assume it does. At least my wife knows what I'm talking about. As would everyone else. Like she knows what I mean when I say 'the universe'. As does everyone else.

So if I say that the universe existed before there was any consciousness to appreciate that fact, then everyone knows what I mean. And with the odd exception, would agree.

 

[dlamberth]

I've had some family stuff pop up and had to step away for a bit, sorry about that.

In all of these discussion of evolution/creation that I've been reading for ever, consciousness is hardly if ever explored. Yet it is so very important to the overall picture of the Earth and life on it. In the list of questions I offered the option of spiritual minded folks because that's pretty much where I sit. But I'm also curious at to how the logic minded and the religious work with a non-logic thing like consciousness.

So here's how I'd answer some of the questions. I tend to look at things through the lens of non-duality and Oneness of Being, which points towards the why of some of my answers. And I start with God...

-God came into being at the moment of the Big Bang.
-Consciousness entered the Universe at the moment of the Big Bang.
-God is the total sum of all of the consciousness that have ever been, all of the consciousness that are happening right now and all of the consciousness that will ever be in the future.
-Consciousness is just as much a part of the Universe as is any physical aspect of reality.
-Consciousness is evolving with the Universe evolving.
-That we have consciousness points to the Universe having consciousness. That's because we are in and a part of the Universe. Not separate and removed from it.
-With the Universe having consciousness, life forms within the Universe have consciousness.
-Because all life forms, plants, animals, everything alive has some type or level of consciousness, consciousness comes into play with the the forces of their evolution.
-Because the Universe has consciousness, life on any other planet can consciousness.

 

[dlamberth]

Believing consciousness can exist independently from a mind/brain is a belief resulting from the excursion into the initial belief that many things can exist independently from one.
Its a commonly held belief and its a big one .. but its still just another belief.

The question I ask is what is mind/brain? I don't see it's limited as you do. The mind/brain can come in all sorts of forms and kinds that fits infinite situations just as Life presents infinite possibilities, which includes infinite kinds of consciousness.

 

[SelfSim]

The question I ask is what is mind/brain? I don't see it's limited as you do. The mind/brain can come in all sorts of forms and kinds that fits infinite situations just as Life presents infinite possibilities, which includes infinite kinds of consciousness.

What I'd like to say is that it boils down to the fact that it is natural, given how human minds work and their limitations, to come to a general model of reality that says all that is "mind" emerges from all that is "reality", (or "the Universe"). This is more or less how we are taught to think, and we would probably come to that model on our own even if we weren't constantly taught it. We are trained by example to look for language about reality that removes us from it, and then looks for us to spring from it without leaving any mark on it, intentionally ignoring the easily demonstrable fact that even the successful use of language itself relies on a lifetime of interaction between how we think and perceive. We simply choose to forget that if our minds were very different, the way we would make sense of our reality would also be very different, despite the mountain of evidence of people with very different minds describing the nature of reality very differently. So the common model is, it's all the same reality, it's completely objective, everything relating to our minds emerges from that reality without any interaction with it, and then in some kind of final step to the process our minds enter and introduce variations from person to person in how they think about that pre-existing reality. The model is: mind dependency (MDR) springs from mind independence, but only mind independent reality (MIR) actually exists.

Where it all falls apart is when I ask the simple question, "so when you personally talk about reality, including what is going on in your life, (eg: as @Bradskii did), or what matter is made of, or the laws of physics, or how did humans evolve, or what is the difference between right and wrong, or what gets you out of bed in the morning, are you talking about that MIR thing you believe in, or your MDR that you say sprung from it?" When you answer that, we can revisit what you mean by "what actually exists". While I'm at it, I might ask you, "do you exist, and if so, does that require that you be some kind of MIR, alongside all those infinite other kinds of consciousness?"

 

[dlamberth]

Believing consciousness can exist independently from a mind/brain is a belief resulting from the excursion into the initial belief that many things can exist independently from one.

What if it's way more than a belief. What if it's actually "experiencing" consciousness as something that is way more than mind/brain? We're Human Beings, we experience life. And consciousness is a key part of life that is all around us, so...To get Buddhist like... we can even experience "consciousness" too. Kind of a consciousness experiencing consciousnesses sort of thing. Or as some say, the Universe experiencing itSelf.

 

[SelfSim]

What if it's way more than a belief. What if it's actually "experiencing" consciousness as something that is way more than mind/brain? We're Human Beings, we experience life. And consciousness is a key part of life that is all around us, so...To get Buddhist like... we can even experience "consciousness" too. Kind of a consciousness experiencing consciousnesses sort of thing. Or as some say, the Universe experiencing itSelf.

Experiencing anything requires a mind .. so its mind dependent.

 

[durangodawood]

I've had some family stuff pop up and had to step away for a bit, sorry about that.

In all of these discussion of evolution/creation that I've been reading for ever, consciousness is hardly if ever explored. Yet it is so very important to the overall picture of the Earth and life on it. In the list of questions I offered the option of spiritual minded folks because that's pretty much where I sit. But I'm also curious at to how the logic minded and the religious work with a non-logic thing like consciousness.

So here's how I'd answer some of the questions. I tend to look at things through the lens of non-duality and Oneness of Being, which points towards the why of some of my answers. And I start with God...

-God came into being at the moment of the Big Bang.
-Consciousness entered the Universe at the moment of the Big Bang.
-God is the total sum of all of the consciousness that have ever been, all of the consciousness that are happening right now and all of the consciousness that will ever be in the future.
-Consciousness is just as much a part of the Universe as is any physical aspect of reality.
-Consciousness is evolving with the Universe evolving.
-That we have consciousness points to the Universe having consciousness. That's because we are in and a part of the Universe. Not separate and removed from it.
-With the Universe having consciousness, life forms within the Universe have consciousness.
-Because all life forms, plants, animals, everything alive has some type or level of consciousness, consciousness comes into play with the the forces of their evolution.
-Because the Universe has consciousness, life on any other planet can consciousness.

I do not understand how consciousness could exist among pre-life matter.

Could you describe an event of consciousness in that environment?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

But gee, it comes in really handy when I do.

'I'm not sure if the fridge exists, dear. Or if it does whether it might actually contain a few cold beers. On the off chance that you're not simply a manifestation of my personal perceptions then while you are in what I hope is our kitchen and not a figment of my imagination, could you get me one of those assumed-to-exist IPAs? Because I believe I could use a beer. At least, I think so...'

Talking to yourself again, Bradskii?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Your taste sensation happens once your taste receptors feed data to your brain where, once the beer is consumed, it gets interpreted and expressed as 'being good' and 'is real'. That's what those words mean in that situation.
Same process happens for all of your other sensory data.

Those taste receptors and that brain are just internal models (in more senses than one)

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I tend to look at things through the lens of non-duality and Oneness of Being, which points towards the why of some of my answers.

Why do you do that? Is it because that's how you were taught to look at things? Or because it seems like a nice idea? Or do you have some rationale for it?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Thought I'd try this out to see where it went.
I have some questions that I’m wondering how you all might answer.

The basic question I'm asking is "When did “consciousness” enter the Universe?"

Was it at the moment of the Big Bang?
Did consciousness exist before the Big Bang?
Did consciousness evolve into existence in parallel with the first creatures here on Earth?
Does the Universe itself have a consciousness that exist because the Universe exists?
What does science say about when consciousness entered the Universe?
The religious? What would you say?
The spiritual minded folks? Same question.
Any other ideas?

I go this route.

Does Consciousness Pervade the Universe?

Is the universe conscious?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I go this route.

Does Consciousness Pervade the Universe?

Is the universe conscious?

Why? It evades an explanation by just making consciousness fundamental, makes no testable predictions, has no supporting evidence, raises more questions than it supposedly answers, and ignores all the evidence that correlates consciousness with brain activity and richness of consciousness with sophistication of the brain.

 

[dlamberth]

What I'd like to say is that it boils down to the fact that it is natural, given how human minds work and their limitations, to come to a general model of reality that says all that is "mind" emerges from all that is "reality", (or "the Universe"). This is more or less how we are taught to think, and we would probably come to that model on our own even if we weren't constantly taught it. We are trained by example to look for language about reality that removes us from it, and then looks for us to spring from it without leaving any mark on it, intentionally ignoring the easily demonstrable fact that even the successful use of language itself relies on a lifetime of interaction between how we think and perceive. We simply choose to forget that if our minds were very different, the way we would make sense of our reality would also be very different, despite the mountain of evidence of people with very different minds describing the nature of reality very differently. So the common model is, it's all the same reality, it's completely objective, everything relating to our minds emerges from that reality without any interaction with it, and then in some kind of final step to the process our minds enter and introduce variations from person to person in how they think about that pre-existing reality. The model is: mind dependency (MDR) springs from mind independence, but only mind independent reality (MIR) actually exists.

Where it all falls apart is when I ask the simple question, "so when you personally talk about reality, including what is going on in your life, (eg: as @Bradskii did), or what matter is made of, or the laws of physics, or how did humans evolve, or what is the difference between right and wrong, or what gets you out of bed in the morning, are you talking about that MIR thing you believe in, or your MDR that you say sprung from it?" When you answer that, we can revisit what you mean by "what actually exists". While I'm at it, I might ask you, "do you exist, and if so, does that require that you be some kind of MIR, alongside all those infinite other kinds of consciousness?"

What I'd like to say is that it boils down to the fact that it is natural, given how human minds work and their limitations, to come to a general model of reality that says all that is "mind" emerges from all that is "reality", (or "the Universe"). This is more or less how we are taught to think, and we would probably come to that model on our own even if we weren't constantly taught it. We are trained by example to look for language about reality that removes us from it, and then looks for us to spring from it without leaving any mark on it, intentionally ignoring the easily demonstrable fact that even the successful use of language itself relies on a lifetime of interaction between how we think and perceive. We simply choose to forget that if our minds were very different, the way we would make sense of our reality would also be very different, despite the mountain of evidence of people with very different minds describing the nature of reality very differently. So the common model is, it's all the same reality, it's completely objective, everything relating to our minds emerges from that reality without any interaction with it, and then in some kind of final step to the process our minds enter and introduce variations from person to person in how they think about that pre-existing reality. The model is: mind dependency (MDR) springs from mind independence, but only mind independent reality (MIR) actually exists.

Where it all falls apart is when I ask the simple question, "so when you personally talk about reality, including what is going on in your life, (eg: as @Bradskii did), or what matter is made of, or the laws of physics, or how did humans evolve, or what is the difference between right and wrong, or what gets you out of bed in the morning, are you talking about that MIR thing you believe in, or your MDR that you say sprung from it?" When you answer that, we can revisit what you mean by "what actually exists". While I'm at it, I might ask you, "do you exist, and if so, does that require that you be some kind of MIR, alongside all those infinite other kinds of consciousness?"

Do I exist...Yes. The question that has to be asked though is: What is the "I". When I say that "I" exist, am I meaning the same thing as you? I don't think so. I think in large part is because for you life is a noun and for me its more like a verb, something that is experienced when consciously awake. Life has the physical, yes, but it also has intelligence, and consciousness and spirit and energy about it. Life and each of us is much more than the laws of physics.

My spiritual life is centered around two questions.
1. What does it mean to be a more fully human, Human Being.
2. How can I have God as my absolute reality in life.

When I get up in the morning, I'm not asking if I exist. Instead, what I'm doing is actually existing. Living in the now. Which leads first thing in my giving thanks to Life and all of the different dimension that it presents us and that we live in. Gratitude has a way of bringing out the better part of us as Human Beings. Opening up in empathy is another as is compassion. These are some of the things that make up the "I".

Having God as my reality also makes me a better Human Being. That's because seeing the Divine around me makes it easier to see the Sacredness in people, the earth and even the cosmos. And most importantly, seeing the Sacredness like that makes me treat all of that in a much more Loving and compassionate way. Which comes full circle and makes me a better Human Being.

So where your concerned is where my reality springs from, I'm more interested in living that reality because I'm a better Human Being by doing so. Which is the bottom line.

 

[dlamberth]

I do not understand how consciousness could exist among pre-life matter.

Could you describe an event of consciousness in that environment?

I understand. It's a tough thing to answer in the material minded world that we live in. It's a different way of experiencing things. I'll try from a couple different directions as I see it. First, the fact that we have consciousness means that consciousness exist, otherwise we wouldn't have it. I have to ask, OK, where? Some here say that it popped into existence at some moment of life's evolution. I believe it started at the moment of the Big Bang and that it's part of the unseen universe that will pop up in life forms. The Human form of consciousness is just that, the Human form.

From another direction, and this is more of a mystical kind of thing were the natural pull of atoms that come together to create the elements is a type of very simple consciousness.

 

[dlamberth]

Why do you do that? Is it because that's how you were taught to look at things? Or because it seems like a nice idea? Or do you have some rationale for it?

I was taught, yes. Your asking a good question.

I, like everyone here in this form was taught to look at life in a materiel duality perspective. It's a way of reality that we learned growing up. But for Human kind, that's a relatively new and different way of experiencing life for us. When studying the Indigenous peoples of the world, I found that they go to the non-dual perspective for reality. And that perspective, if the Indigenous people are taken as more accurate to our past history in how we experienced Life, I think it something to listen to and take seriously. So I have. But it's also an aspect of all of the Wisdom Traditions of the world, which I also take seriously. Getting to the piratical aspect, non-duality vision has a way of making us better Human Beings because we can see ourselves in others.

 

[dlamberth]

Why? It evades an explanation by just making consciousness fundamental, makes no testable predictions, has no supporting evidence, raises more questions than it supposedly answers, and ignores all the evidence that correlates consciousness with brain activity and richness of consciousness with sophistication of the brain.

Welcome to living Life!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I was taught, yes. Your asking a good question.

I, like everyone here in this form was taught to look at life in a materiel duality perspective. It's a way of reality that we learned growing up. But for Human kind, that's a relatively new and different way of experiencing life for us. When studying the Indigenous peoples of the world, I found that they go to the non-dual perspective for reality. And that perspective, if the Indigenous people are taken as more accurate to our past history in how we experienced Life, I think it something to listen to and take seriously. So I have. But it's also an aspect of all of the Wisdom Traditions of the world, which I also take seriously. Getting to the piratical aspect, non-duality vision has a way of making us better Human Beings because we can see ourselves in others.

Hmm, I'm not sure I entirely agree with your analysis. Have you read Baggini's 'How the World Thinks' ? It gives some insight into the worldviews around the planet and how they have developed.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Welcome to living Life!

I have no objections to people believing such ideas, my critique is of this 'explanation' proposed as a scientific hypothesis.