Creationists: How exactly did the fall of man change biological organisms?

[Subduction Zone]

You realize most of those verses are affirming that God does not change his mind.

1 Samuel 15:29
Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”

God does not change his mind over what sin is. He doesn't say today this act is sinful tomorrow it isn't. Adultery was sinful then and its sinful now.
God's action has been changed by the petition and prayers of righteous people. Like Abraham did when he pleaded for Sodom and Gomorrah. It wasn't that God's mind was changed over the evil committed there, only he changed his action.

They look to be split about 50/50 on God changing his mind or not changing his mind. And in cases where God changed his mind in the Bible you are only playing word games. I think that was why he linked that site. It is only a small sampling of some of the endless self contradictions of the Bible.

 

[Job 33:6]

The issue here is that logic can be described in a way very similar to mathematics. So to claim that Jesus making 5000 fish out of thin air is somehow logical and we just don't understand the logic behind it seems to me to be akin to claiming that 1+1=342,578,367, and we just don't properly understand how addition works.

Shrugs*

I feel like you guys flock toward literalist interpretations of scripture too often. Too many conversations with AV. A miracle doesn't have to require additional creation of matter either.

As if there was no consideration that what is considered logical today, may not be in 1,000 years as we discover more about existence, much like ideas in logic have developed and changed in the past.

 

[Kylie]

Shrugs*

I feel like you guys flock toward literalist interpretations of scripture too often. Too many conversations with AV. A miracle doesn't have to require additional creation of matter either.

As if there was no consideration that what is considered logical today, may not be in 1,000 years as we discover more about existence, much like ideas in logic have developed and changed in the past.

Why are you talking about a literal interpretation of Scripture?

I'm talking about how you claimed in post 154 that even "real" miracles - those requiring divine intervention - could be perfectly logical. Did you not say: "...even miracles could be logical, but rather we consider them miracles due to a lack of familiarity with the rules of logic."

So don't try to put this on me trying to take a literal interpretation of the Bible when I'm talking about your own words.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Why are you talking about a literal interpretation of Scripture?

I'm talking about how you claimed in post 154 that even "real" miracles - those requiring divine intervention - could be perfectly logical. Did you not say: "...even miracles could be logical, but rather we consider them miracles due to a lack of familiarity with the rules of logic."

So don't try to put this on me trying to take a literal interpretation of the Bible when I'm talking about your own words.

Perhaps he was wondering why you insisted on taking a literal interpretation of his words

 

[Bungle_Bear]

You realize most of those verses are affirming that God does not change his mind.

1 Samuel 15:29
Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”

God does not change his mind over what sin is. He doesn't say today this act is sinful tomorrow it isn't. Adultery was sinful then and its sinful now.

Does that mean we humans have added to the list of sins? Incest wasn't sinful back in the day, it is now. Who made that change?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

There is ONE God and many demons.

That's your belief. There are a host of other beliefs that contradict it, and no evidence for any of them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Job 33:6]

Why are you talking about a literal interpretation of Scripture?

I'm talking about how you claimed in post 154 that even "real" miracles - those requiring divine intervention - could be perfectly logical. Did you not say: "...even miracles could be logical, but rather we consider them miracles due to a lack of familiarity with the rules of logic."

So don't try to put this on me trying to take a literal interpretation of the Bible when I'm talking about your own words.

Are you able to imagine a miracle that doesn't involve materializing fish? How about a miracle in which God divinely intervenes within a thunderstorm and makes a lightening bolt strike a tree. This is purely hypothetical, yet it happens each year and is actually somewhat common. It doesn't involve making any matter come into existence, and operates with use of things already present. The lightening bolt doesn't have to hit the tree, yet in this particular case, it does. We do have a naturalistic explanation [generally speaking] for why lightening strikes where it does, and yet, despite what we think we know about lightening, none of us really has any ability to say one way or another if lightening will or will not hit this hypothetical tree.

I would say that God could operate within our universe, in ways right before our eyes, in ways that we cannot predict or control. Only God would be able to predict and control the precise nature of how such events occur.

And none of this has to involve fish materializing out of thin air.

Let's see if we can make another example.

Radioactive material may decay in ways that we cannot predict and we cannot control. In some sense we can make broad predictions based on probabilities. We think that maybe a particle will be emitted in some general amount of time.

I think another atheist here in these forums worded this in ways that maybe I should have paid more attention to. And I'll see if I can find that discussion, but there was this lingering question of why any individual particle was emitted at any particular time during radioactive decay.

The question challenged me because it's a question that we can't really say when or how or even why any particular particle emits at any particular time.

It is true that a parent material may be energetically instable, thus being what we consider a broad cause of decay. And yet this thought of mine still falls short of explaining why any particular particle emits at any particular time. We can't predict it or control it, we don't know why certain subatomic particles move when they do or even where they do.

And in this case, who's to say that God would not operate in this realm in which we have no control over or can't predict when or why events occur when they do, or how they do.

If God stepped in and there was divine intervention in which a particle was emitted a fraction of a second sooner or later than any other moment than it naturally would have, we wouldn't see any difference in probability, We wouldn't see anything abnormal about the occurrence, it would just be a part of the unpredictable nature of reality and yet this very nature could be manipulated in natural ways.

 

[Job 33:6]

Perhaps he was wondering why you insisted on taking a literal interpretation of his words

Well it's just that "miracle" doesn't have to equate to fish duplication. That's all I'm saying. Why assume that I am a biblical literalist that might believe in such an interpretation.

I'm thinking more along the lines of God manipulating events through divine intervention, in ways in which to a regular observer, an event may appear to be random or without meaning, but in actuality could be not random at all but directed with a purpose.

 

[Job 33:6]

Well it's just that "miracle" doesn't have to equate to fish duplication. That's all I'm saying. Why assume that I am a biblical literalist that might believe in such an interpretation.

I'm thinking more along the lines of God manipulating events through divine intervention, in ways in which to a regular observer, an event may appear to be random or without meaning, but in actuality could be not random at all but directed with a purpose.

I also think that, much like science, logic is something that develops over time. Concepts once thought to be illogical, with time and discovery are found to be logical. Much like in science ideas sometimes are thought to be unscientific until later discovery indicates that these same concepts are perfectly scientific and reasonable. Hence why concepts in logic and science are overturned as more and more discoveries are made. Which is not to say that science and logic are incorrect, but rather is to say that we have much to learn about the universe and God.

And with that I think that there could be concepts that we currently consider are illogical that might actually be perfectly logical to God that we have yet to grasp.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

Are you able to imagine a miracle that doesn't involve materializing fish? How about a miracle in which God divinely intervenes within a thunderstorm and makes a lightening bolt strike a tree. This is purely hypothetical, yet it happens each year and is actually somewhat common. It doesn't involve making any matter come into existence, and operates with use of things already present. The lightening bolt doesn't have to hit the tree, yet in this particular case, it does. We do have a naturalistic explanation [generally speaking] for why lightening strikes where it does, and yet, despite what we think we know about lightening, none of us really has any ability to say one way or another if lightening will or will not hit this hypothetical tree.

I would say that God could operate within our universe, in ways right before our eyes, in ways that we cannot predict or control. Only God would be able to predict and control the precise nature of how such events occur.

And none of this has to involve fish materializing out of thin air.

Let's see if we can make another example.

Radioactive material may decay in ways that we cannot predict and we cannot control. In some sense we can make broad predictions based on probabilities. We think that maybe a particle will be emitted in some general amount of time.

I think another atheist here in these forums worded this in ways that maybe I should have paid more attention to. And I'll see if I can find that discussion, but there was this lingering question of why any individual particle was emitted at any particular time during radioactive decay.

The question challenged me because it's a question that we can't really say when or how or even why any particular particle emits at any particular time.

It is true that a parent material may be energetically instable, thus being what we consider a broad cause of decay. And yet this thought of mine still falls short of explaining why any particular particle emits at any particular time. We can't predict it or control it, we don't know why certain subatomic particles move when they do or even where they do.

And in this case, who's to say that God would not operate in this realm in which we have no control over or can't predict when or why events occur when they do, or how they do.

If God stepped in and there was divine intervention in which a particle was emitted a fraction of a second sooner or later than any other moment than it naturally would have, we wouldn't see any difference in probability, We wouldn't see anything abnormal about the occurrence, it would just be a part of the unpredictable nature of reality and yet this very nature could be manipulated in natural ways.

Do you have any way to tell that a lightening bolt hit a tree due to divine intervention versus natural law? Or that a particle was emitted the same way as opposed to the natural laws governing radioactivity? If not, then how can you possibly know that God, granting his existence in the first place, ever actually does that at all? Why would you even speculate such a thing when we know there are completely natural processes that explain exactly what's going on?

 

[Job 33:6]

Do you have any way to tell that a lightening bolt hit a tree due to divine intervention versus natural law? Or that a particle was emitted the same way as opposed to the natural laws governing radioactivity? If not, then how can you possibly know that God, granting his existence in the first place, ever actually does that at all? Why would you even speculate such a thing when we know there are completely natural processes that explain exactly what's going on?

My thought is that we don't know "exactly" what's going on, hence why we can't predict it. If we truly knew exactly what was going on, wouldn't we be able to say "exactly" when a particle was going to be emitted? Or in what direction?

And to answer your question, the simple is answer is no, I couldn't differentiate between natural event vs divine intervention. Well, maybe one day with future discovery we could, but not now. And belief in God is a matter of faith, not knowledge.

And I think it's worth considering the idea that if God were to operate through natural memes in a logical way, we might very well see an act of God but not even be aware of it. Assuming the event is something that we otherwise wouldn't be able to predict anyway.

 

[Job 33:6]

My thought is that we don't know "exactly" what's going on, hence why we can't predict it. If we truly knew exactly what was going on, wouldn't we be able to say "exactly" when a particle was going to be emitted? Or in what direction?

And to answer your question, the simple is answer is no, I couldn't differentiate between natural event vs divine intervention. Well, maybe one day with future discovery we could, but not now. And belief in God is a matter of faith, not knowledge.

And I think it's worth considering the idea that if God were to operate through natural memes in a logical way, we might very well see an act of God but not even be aware of it. Assuming the event is something that we otherwise wouldn't be able to predict anyway.

And to touch on that last paragraph that I added there, we could view an event of divine intervention as something simply being random, without really recognizing God's intervention at all.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

And belief in God is a matter of faith, not knowledge.

But you guys constantly make knowledge claims about God and his interactions with this world. You're doing it in this thread. How do you know anything about what God does or doesn't do if you can't tell the difference? Is that why you just attribute everything to God and call it a day? It's easier.

And I think it's worth considering the idea that if God were to operate through natural memes

That's about the best explanation of how God actually seems to operate I've ever heard.

 

[renniks]

The fall of man is often cited by creationists are the point which death entered the world, organisms began changing, etc.

My question is how did the fall specifically affect biological organisms causing them to change?

Was this change supernatural in nature? Were their deliberate, creative decisions being made in this process? Were new organisms being created? Or did it just involve modifying existing organisms?

Or did the fall simply trigger biological evolution in organisms? E.g. reproducing and mutating and diversifying from their originally created states?

Or was it some combination of factors?

Creationists: How exactly did the fall do things with respect to biology?

The most likely scenario in my opinion, is that it started the process of a gradual downward spiral in what was originally perfect DNA, so that disease and mutations begin to happen more frequently as time went by. This is why lifespans dropped dramatically and it almost seems like before the flood mankind had reached a point where they would have self-destructed one way or another. God just did it the cleanest way.
Can you imagine a world where childbirth was painless? Or crops didn't require tending because of weeds and parasites?
There had to be widespread changes on every level from plants and animals and fish. So it's not that creationists don't believe in a kind of evolution, or rather devolution. But we don't accept common ancestry.

 

[Job 33:6]

But you guys constantly make knowledge claims about God and his interactions with this world. You're doing it in this thread. How do you know anything about what God does or doesn't do if you can't tell the difference? Is that why you just attribute everything to God and call it a day? It's easier.



That's about the best explanation of how God actually seems to operate I've ever heard.

Lol Love the voice to text translations.

And regarding your first question I just like to entertain myself.

I think I'd consider it more of a theological proposal than a scientific claim.

Another thought on the topic is that it wouldn't necessarily have to just be about radioactive decay. It could play out in any event that ever occurs that involves unpredictable motions of subatomic particles. Which is to say that God could be active in literally everything.

A lightning bolt is traveling through the sky, and we might look at that lightning bolt and see some forms of random motion. It turns left it turns right It goes up and down It's jagged and then it hits a location. We see it as random and maybe unpredictable. We might have difficulty understanding the position of electrons in the lightning bolt in our lack of understanding of wave particle duality, or superposition. Whereas an infinitely present and aware God could very well manipulate that bolt, at any given time and nobody would ever know.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You realize most of those verses are affirming that God does not change his mind.

Most? so some do affirm that God changes his mind? I see about 11 quotes that either unequivocally state that God changed his mind or talk about God changing his mind.

A reasonable inference would be that the bible is contradicting itself...

God does not change his mind over what sin is. He doesn't say today this act is sinful tomorrow it isn't. Adultery was sinful then and its sinful now.

Oh, I see - so he does change his mind, but not about what is or isn't a sin. That's not at all the same thing as "God is unchanging in what he thinks."

 

[Phred]

Are you able to imagine a miracle that doesn't involve materializing fish? How about a miracle in which God divinely intervenes within a thunderstorm and makes a lightening bolt strike a tree. This is purely hypothetical, yet it happens each year and is actually somewhat common. It doesn't involve making any matter come into existence, and operates with use of things already present. The lightening bolt doesn't have to hit the tree, yet in this particular case, it does. We do have a naturalistic explanation [generally speaking] for why lightening strikes where it does, and yet, despite what we think we know about lightening, none of us really has any ability to say one way or another if lightening will or will not hit this hypothetical tree.

I would say that God could operate within our universe, in ways right before our eyes, in ways that we cannot predict or control. Only God would be able to predict and control the precise nature of how such events occur.

And none of this has to involve fish materializing out of thin air.

Let's see if we can make another example.

Radioactive material may decay in ways that we cannot predict and we cannot control. In some sense we can make broad predictions based on probabilities. We think that maybe a particle will be emitted in some general amount of time.

I think another atheist here in these forums worded this in ways that maybe I should have paid more attention to. And I'll see if I can find that discussion, but there was this lingering question of why any individual particle was emitted at any particular time during radioactive decay.

The question challenged me because it's a question that we can't really say when or how or even why any particular particle emits at any particular time.

It is true that a parent material may be energetically instable, thus being what we consider a broad cause of decay. And yet this thought of mine still falls short of explaining why any particular particle emits at any particular time. We can't predict it or control it, we don't know why certain subatomic particles move when they do or even where they do.

And in this case, who's to say that God would not operate in this realm in which we have no control over or can't predict when or why events occur when they do, or how they do.

If God stepped in and there was divine intervention in which a particle was emitted a fraction of a second sooner or later than any other moment than it naturally would have, we wouldn't see any difference in probability, We wouldn't see anything abnormal about the occurrence, it would just be a part of the unpredictable nature of reality and yet this very nature could be manipulated in natural ways.

All of which require a god to actually exist. There is no reason it should. And no evidence that it does. You first assume God exists. Then you go about shoehorning it into wherever you can. Including but not limited to "miracles." Someone survives a tough illness. Goddidit. Something happens you don't particularly understand. Goddidit. A lightning bolt hits a tree. Goddidit.

Or. Someone survived a tough illness. Doctors did it.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

And to touch on that last paragraph that I added there, we could view an event of divine intervention as something simply being random, without really recognizing God's intervention at all.

But why would God intervene if everything is working according to its plan? Is God not omniscient? Would it not know in advance how the plan would pan out? Could it not make a plan that didn't require interference?

I'm curious to know what capabilities you ascribe to your God.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

All of which require a god to actually exist. There is no reason it should. And no evidence that it does. You first assume God exists. Then you go about shoehorning it into wherever you can. Including but not limited to "miracles." Someone survives a tough illness. Goddidit. Something happens you don't particularly understand. Goddidit. A lightning bolt hits a tree. Goddidit.

Or. Someone survived a tough illness. Doctors did it.

And why would God's intervention have to be undetectable? if God intervened in an obvious way there would be no atheists or agnostics. And why, if God intervenes, does it not intervene to minimise suffering - if only from natural disasters, diseases, etc.?

IOW, why if God intervenes, does the world behave just as we would expect from a world where it doesn't intervene?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

And why would God's intervention have to be undetectable? if God intervened in an obvious way there would be no atheists or agnostics. And why, if God intervenes, does it not intervene to minimise suffering - if only from natural disasters, diseases, etc.?

IOW, why if God intervenes, does the world behave just as we would expect from a world where it doesn't intervene?

GWIMW.

'nuff said.