Creationists: How exactly did the fall of man change biological organisms?

[SelfSim]

The expression of these relationships in language is a human invention, the underlying relationships are not.

That sounds like a very absolute position to hold to there(?)
Where does the meaning of 'underlying relationships' there, come from anyway?

Can I demonstrate this to be the case? Perhaps, but as it might well involve the use of logic that would leave us on a fairground roundabout.

Then you cannot demonstrate the claim of the truth of the proposition that the underlying relationships are not a human invention then?

 

[jacknife]

I understand that but what is the argument? Is the argument that if God were good, God would remove people's ability to choose him over other idols and simply create everyone as believers?

I would like yo clarify i do not speak for bears argument or for him. Rereading I realized i might be giving that impression and if so i apologize.

 

[SelfSim]

I think that my answer would still be no because if God created logic, it might suggest that God were outside of logic or not subject to it. I don't think that God could create a square with 3 sides. I would think that the only squares God can create are the only squares that can exist. 4 sided ones.

Very cool .. and its you using your own mind everywhere there, too (see my underlines/emboldenments for the evidence there). What does that tell us about where the relationships and logic come from?
I don't think your beliefs about the existence of God even comes into this, what's more?

 

[Job 33:6]

An atheist has already made a choice. Their choice is that God doesn't exist and so by definition they won't see God.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
He doesn't reward those who don't believe he exists, who ignore any sign that they are sent, who don't seek him.

I think it's worth clarifying that every saint had a past and every sinner has a future (Matt Maher anyone?). An atheist may one day be saved. Maybe today they've made a choice, but every day is a new day for new choices.

And it is correct that many atheists very well have not had an opportunity to believe as they have not received the gospel.

 

[Job 33:6]

Very cool .. and its you using your own mind everywhere there, too (see my underlines/emboldenments for the evidence there). What does that tell us about where the relationships and logic come from?

I being a created image bearer of God might suggest that my logic is a reflection of Him.

 

[jacknife]

I will assume this is directed at me?

An atheist has already made a choice. Their choice is that God doesn't exist and so by definition they won't see God.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
He doesn't reward those who don't believe he exists, who ignore any sign that they are sent, who don't seek him.

No it wasn't actually, also i still disagree that you fully choose your religion.

 

[Job 33:6]

I would like yo clarify i do not speak for bears argument or for him. Rereading I realized i might be giving that impression and if so i apologize.

I understand, no worries. Maybe bear will provide some clarity. I'll re read his ideas to see if I can understand his concerns.

 

[Ophiolite]

Did God create a working relationship between things?

(Keep in mind I don't think the Christian God exists, but am accepting his existence for the sake of this discussion.)
If he did not create that working relationship then he is not much of a Creator. Sounds as if you are proposing he is using relationships and perhaps material/energy that already existed, which is not in line with conventional Christian thinking as I understand it. It certainly removes his role as First Cause.

 

[Kylie]

I'll answer no, because I don't think that logic is itself a thing. Did God create people who practice logic, sure.

So then it seems that logic dictates what God can and can't do. Also, it proves that God is not the creator of everything.

It also means that anything that God can do or has ever done is limited to logic, so there are no miracles possible (since they, be definition, require a breaking of the laws of logic).

 

[Kylie]

Because God is unchanging in what he thinks.
Numbers 23:19
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

To change ones mind is a human attribute and part of your fee will.

Could you tell me what Exodus 32:14 says please?

 

[Job 33:6]

(Keep in mind I don't think the Christian God exists, but am accepting his existence for the sake of this discussion.)
If he did not create that working relationship then he is not much of a Creator. Sounds as if you are proposing he is using relationships and perhaps material/energy that already existed, which is not in line with conventional Christian thinking as I understand it. It certainly removes his role as First Cause.

It seems like we are jumping from a question of if God created logic that governs energy and material to the question of if God created energy and material itself. I haven't quite made this jump as you have.

 

[Job 33:6]

So then it seems that logic dictates what God can and can't do. Also, it proves that God is not the creator of everything.

It also means that anything that God can do or has ever done is limited to logic, so there are no miracles possible (since they, be definition, require a breaking of the laws of logic).

Some things God hasnt created, such as love. Does it mean that love predated God? I don't think so. Rather it would be an extension of himself.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 4:8 - New International Version

1 John 4:8
New International Versio
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.



I think the term "miracles" has many meanings. In scripture it is said that God created man from dust. This could be viewed as a miracle, but as noted, I am not a biblical literalist.

Some also view things like child birth as a miracle, but there is no breaking of logic here.

But also I think it's fair to say that there could be events that we yet have explanations for that could occur. Things that seemingly defy logic today that one day may become clear upon investigation or revelation. Concepts in quantum mechanics for example have tested our understanding of logic continually over time. Such as described in the following: Quantum logic - Wikipedia
Stoic logic, classical logic, Aristotle logic. Logic has developed with time as we investigate more and more, and our current understanding of a miracle and the logic of any given miracle, shouldn't be confused with God's understanding of the same.

Does this mean that the earth may be flat? Or that Jesus literally made thousands of fish materialize in thin air? Not necessarily. But I think it leaves room for the workings of God in ways we have yet to understand.

But surely you knew this response was coming. Some things are considered the very nature of God that permeate creation not because God created them, but rather theyre extensions or manifestations of God's being.

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

Your idea of God rest heavily on choice and freewill. But thier problems with both of these for example a atheist can't choose something thier not convinced exists therefore God never really gave us much of a choice. A secound problem I see is "Believe in me in this specific way or suffer" isn't really free choice either that's an ultimatum. And finally do we really choose our religion?

They're

 

[jacknife]

They're

Thank you.

 

[Ophiolite]

It seems like we are jumping from a question of if God created logic that governs energy and material to the question of if God created energy and material itself. I haven't quite made this jump as you have.

I only made the jump because it seems a necessary consequence of your thought that God did not create logic. If that is not apparent to you I can try a more detailed explantation as to why I think it is necessary.

 

[Job 33:6]

I only made the jump because it seems a necessary consequence of your thought that God did not create logic. If that is not apparent to you I can try a more detailed explantation as to why I think it is necessary.

It is not apparent to me. Let's see what you're thinking .

 

[Kylie]

Some things God hasnt created, such as love. Does it mean that love predated God? I don't think so. Rather it would be an extension of himself.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 4:8 - New International Version

1 John 4:8
New International Versio
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

We're getting quite a list of things that God didn't create, aren't we?

I think the term "miracles" has many meanings. In scripture it is said that God created man from dust. This could be viewed as a miracle, but as noted, I am not a biblical literalist.

Of course, if God can't do miracles, then we must ask how he created the universe. Was that not a miraculous event? If it was, then God couldn't have done it. If it was not, then it's something that could have been done by anyone. Maybe one day we will be able to create universes ourselves.

Some also view things like child birth as a miracle, but there is no breaking of logic here.

It's amazing, but not miraculous. It's also sweaty, painful, tiring, and messy business.

But also I think it's fair to say that there could be events that we yet have explanations for that could occur. Things that seemingly defy logic today that one day may become clear upon investigation or revelation. Concepts in quantum mechanics for example have tested our understanding of logic continually over time. Such as described in the following: Quantum logic - Wikipedia
Stoic logic, classical logic, Aristotle logic. Logic has developed with time as we investigate more and more, and our current understanding of a miracle and the logic of any given miracle, shouldn't be confused with God's understanding of the same.

Does this mean that the earth may be flat? Or that Jesus literally made thousands of fish materialize in thin air? Not necessarily. But I think it leaves room for the workings of God in ways we have yet to understand.

But surely you knew this response was coming. Some things are considered the very nature of God that permeate creation not because God created them, but rather theyre extensions or manifestations of God's being.

I've heard many believers say that we can never know God's mind. So it seems that your suggestion that what appears to be miraculous to us but is perfectly reasonable and one day we could understand that contradicts the claim.

 

[Job 33:6]

We're getting quite a list of things that God didn't create, aren't we?

First logic, then love. I wonder what the apostle Paul would have done had he believed that God didn't create love . (This is sarcasm of course because as noted above in 1 John, God is love, so why would we expect God to create love?).

Of course, if God can't do miracles, then we must ask how he created the universe. Was that not a miraculous event? If it was, then God couldn't have done it. If it was not, then it's something that could have been done by anyone. Maybe one day we will be able to create universes ourselves.

Ok. Sure maybe!

It's amazing, but not miraculous. It's also sweaty, painful, tiring, and messy business.

Some would consider it miraculous. It's ok if you don't.

I've heard many believers say that we can never know God's mind. So it seems that your suggestion that what appears to be miraculous to us but is perfectly reasonable and one day we could understand that contradicts the claim.

Seems like open commentary here. A lot of people say a lot of things, but this doesn't hold much meaning to me.

 

[Kylie]

Some would consider it miraculous. It's ok if you don't.

Well, if we take "miracle" to mean "something that could not have happened without divine intervention," then no, it's not miraculous.

However, many people take "miracle" to mean something that is just unlikely, or amazing, and it is that second interpretation that people generally use when talking of birth as miraculous.

Seems like open commentary here. A lot of people say a lot of things, but this doesn't hold much meaning to me.

I'm saying that, given many believers claim God is inherently unknowable, your claim that we could eventually understand what God knows is impossible, at least according to their argument.

 

[Job 33:6]

Well, if we take "miracle" to mean "something that could not have happened without divine intervention," then no, it's not miraculous.

However, many people take "miracle" to mean something that is just unlikely, or amazing, and it is that second interpretation that people generally use when talking of birth as miraculous.

Alright, we have arrived at the same page.

Moves on*

I'm saying that, given many believers claim God is inherently unknowable, your claim that we could eventually understand what God knows is impossible, at least according to their argument.

That we could eventually understand what God knows?

There used to be a time where people thought earth was flat, and we eventually learned what God knows, that the earth was round. This isn't an impossibility.

Scratches head*