Creationists: How exactly did the fall of man change biological organisms?

[pitabread]

The fall of man is often cited by creationists are the point which death entered the world, organisms began changing, etc.

My question is how did the fall specifically affect biological organisms causing them to change?

Was this change supernatural in nature? Were their deliberate, creative decisions being made in this process? Were new organisms being created? Or did it just involve modifying existing organisms?

Or did the fall simply trigger biological evolution in organisms? E.g. reproducing and mutating and diversifying from their originally created states?

Or was it some combination of factors?

Creationists: How exactly did the fall do things with respect to biology?

 

[AV1611VET]

Creationists: How exactly did the fall do anything?

I once speculated that Adam's DNA could have been "flat" -- that is, not "twisted."

(Since we live in a "twisted world.")

But I don't necessarily hold to that anymore.

We know that thorns and thistles started appearing as a result of the Fall; probably as a result of the decaying process.

Try and picture the universe in Genesis 1 as a giant ice sculptor, with an endless supply of frigid air keeping it spotless.

Then the fall occurs, and that frigid air is withdrawn.

What happens? the universe starts melting.

We're living in just such a universe.

One that started out pristine, and is now in a state of entropy.

 

[SelfSim]

I once speculated that Adam's DNA could have been "flat" -- that is, not "twisted."

(Since we live in a "twisted world.")

But I don't necessarily hold to that anymore.

Thank goodness!
DNA's 'twist' is a result of its molecular interactions with liquid water.
This is one of the key reasons for questioning speculated life on any non-Earth body, where long-lived liquid water supplies are not physically possible.

 

[AV1611VET]

DNA's 'twist' is a result of its molecular interactions with liquid water.

If I remember correct, someone explained to me that it was tension that pulled DNA into a double helix.

Kind of like a rubber ladder, with its rungs too short. twisting it out of shape.

Else Adam would be something like a mile tall.

 

[dlamberth]

Try and picture the universe in Genesis 1 as a giant ice sculptor, with an endless supply of frigid air keeping it spotless.

Sounds like a world that like ice, looks nice and clean, but is without vitality and life force and mystery. Sounds pretty boring and I don't think it's anywhere near what God would create.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The fall of man is often cited by creationists are the point which death entered the world, organisms began changing, etc.

My question is how did the fall specifically affect biological organisms causing them to change?

Was this change supernatural in nature? Were their deliberate, creative decisions being made in this process? Were new organisms being created? Or did it just involve modifying existing organisms?

Or did the fall simply trigger biological evolution in organisms? E.g. reproducing and mutating and diversifying from their originally created states?

Or was it some combination of factors?

Creationists: How exactly did the fall do anything?

You are asking two questions, no?
1. How did the fall specifically affect biological organisms causing them to change?
This is related (I think) to the notion that any suffering or apparent harm is related to sin, and caused by the devil.
2. How exactly did the fall do anything? This is a much more Biblical question, less speculation is necessary. The bible says in Adam all died (I think obviously speaking of spiritual death. This is the doctrine of original sin.)

 

[AV1611VET]

Sounds like a world that like ice, looks nice and clean, but is without vitality and life force and mystery. Sounds pretty boring and I don't think it's anywhere near what God would create.

Similies can be confusing, can't they?

 

[SelfSim]

If I remember correct, someone explained to me that it was tension that pulled DNA into a double helix.

Kind of like a rubber ladder, with its rungs too short. twisting it out of shape.

Else Adam would be something like a mile tall.

These guys have a nice explanation here:

In order to further prevent the nitrogenous bases from coming into contact with cell fluid, the molecule twists to reduce space between the nitrogenous bases and the phosphate and sugar strands.

 

[pitabread]

You are asking two questions, no?
1. How did the fall specifically affect biological organisms causing them to change?
This is related (I think) to the notion that any suffering or apparent harm is related to sin, and caused by the devil.
2. How exactly did the fall do anything? This is a much more Biblical question, less speculation is necessary. The bible says in Adam all died (I think obviously speaking of spiritual death. This is the doctrine of original sin.)

I meant the latter with respect of the former (changes in biology).

And I'm familiar the doctrine of sin, claims that fall involved corruption of creation, etc.

I'm asking specifically how it could change biological organisms and how that worked.

 

[pitabread]

I once speculated that Adam's DNA could have been "flat" -- that is, not "twisted."

(Since we live in a "twisted world.")

But I don't necessarily hold to that anymore.

We know that thorns and thistles started appearing as a result of the Fall; probably as a result of the decaying process.

Try and picture the universe in Genesis 1 as a giant ice sculptor, with an endless supply of frigid air keeping it spotless.

Then the fall occurs, and that frigid air is withdrawn.

What happens? the universe starts melting.

We're living in just such a universe.

One that started out pristine, and is now in a state of entropy.

Sounds like you are implying the original creation was a fixed, static thing. That seems a contradiction with the Biblical texts.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sounds like you are implying the original creation was a fixed, static thing.

What do you mean?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I meant the latter with respect of the former (changes in biology).

And I'm familiar the doctrine of sin, claims that fall involved corruption of creation, etc.

I'm asking specifically how it could change biological organisms and how that worked.

ok Well, and not that you don't know this, but not all believers claim it did change biological organisms.

And somewhat to the contrary, there is speculation that sin is actually in the DNA. I can only guess what that means.

 

[Sabertooth]

My question is how did the fall specifically affect biological organisms causing them to change?

Abiding in Holiness was entirely prophylactic for the Man & Woman, and their domain.

Removing Holiness destroyed that order like a Jenga tower.

 

[Job 33:6]

I typically view the fall as a product of man trying to grapple with the issues of sin. The story of genesis strongly points at things like sin, shame, lying, blaming, dishonesty etc. As all being issues observed at the fall. And that mankind is separated from God in these acts.

It's an expression of brokenness.

Young earthers may have thought that meat eating dinosaurs used their sharp teeth to eat coconuts before the fall. But I think most lay Christians and more on the liberal end of things recognize that death long predated mankind. Which is to say that no physical death or sin entered the world that didn't previously exist at any point in the history of mankind. Though perhaps there was a time where a human being made a sentient choice to sin for the first time. Though often times these are viewed as spiritual issues, moreso than physical issues.

Just as when Jesus died for our sins, he didn't stop all humanity from physically dying. No more did Adam begin the process of physical death. These are spiritual issues.

Are we within Adam, born of the world, or in Jesus born again?

 

[Kylie]

We know that thorns and thistles started appearing as a result of the Fall; probably as a result of the decaying process.

How, exactly, do you know this?

 

[coffee4u]

The fall of man is often cited by creationists are the point which death entered the world, organisms began changing, etc.

My question is how did the fall specifically affect biological organisms causing them to change?

Was this change supernatural in nature? Were their deliberate, creative decisions being made in this process? Were new organisms being created? Or did it just involve modifying existing organisms?

Or did the fall simply trigger biological evolution in organisms? E.g. reproducing and mutating and diversifying from their originally created states?

Or was it some combination of factors?

Creationists: How exactly did the fall do things with respect to biology?

I believe it was supernatural and then natural changes followed that, developed by chance, mutations and isolation. Creationists are not against small changes such as loss of DNA or one species finding an area more suitable than another. If a striped species was more easily able to blend in the grass, in a world that had turned carnivorous, it would make sense that more of those that didn't blend in would get eaten.

I don't believe there was any new organisms only changes in existing ones.

 

[coffee4u]

How, exactly, do you know this?

It was part of the curse.

Genesis 3:18
It will produce thorns and thistles for you

 

[pitabread]

Abiding in Holiness was entirely prophylactic for the Man & Woman, and their domain.

Removing Holiness destroyed that order like a Jenga tower.

What does that have to do with the biology in question? Not looking for analogies. Looking for explanations of the biology involved.

 

[Sabertooth]

What does that have to do with the biology in question? Not looking for analogies. Looking for explanations of the biology involved.

These details are just conjecture on my part,
IIUC, we have various micro-organisms that live inside our bodies, including beneficial bacteria that aid in digestion.

We also have bad bacteria that are normally kept in check. When our body's [immune?] systems are out of balance, the latter can proliferate and make us sick.

I believe that the missing element of Holiness may have stabilized that balance all of the time, rather than most of the time like our current immune system does. With Holiness still in place, either the bad bacteria were not present at all OR their presence was beneficial in ways that we currently do not understand.

 

[Ophiolite]

These details are just conjecture on my part,
IIUC, we have various micro-organisms that live inside our bodies, including beneficial bacteria that aid in digestion.

We also have bad bacteria that are normally kept in check. When our body's [immune?] systems are out of balance, the latter can proliferate and make us sick.

I believe that the missing element of Holiness may have stabilized that balance all of the time, rather than most of the time like our current immune system does. With Holiness still in place, either the bad bacteria were not present at all OR their presence was beneficial in ways that we currently do not understand.

Intriguing proposal. Any actual evidence in support of it? Any way you might test the hypothesis?
Edit: I recognise that you described it as conjecture, but often conjecture is promoted by a snippet or two of evidence. And testing can still be envisaged for conjectures.