How can Jesus have born future sins?

[jeffweedaman]

I don't disagree with you. What I wonder is, did Jesus bear particular sins, or the punishment for sin? If he bore the punishment that sin deserves it explains how he covered future sins.

I agree . Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of SIN . His blood was shed once , and for all.

 

[RDKirk]

Show scripture on that.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” -- John 8

The Son is one with God and God has the characteristic of extratemporal simultaneity. He exists simultaneously in all moments of time, which is the other side of the coin from omnipresence. Because time and space are a continuum, the Lord exists simultaneously at every point in space and also in every moment of time.

God is existing simultaneously in the moment of Christ's death and in the moments of each our our sins. He is seeing both simultaneously.

We see this displayed in other places, such as Psalm 22.

 

[BBAS 64]

I agree . Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of SIN . His blood was shed once , and for all.

Good Day, Jeffweedman

You might wish to read the fuller context:

so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Many is not all

You may be confused by this in the context earlier

For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people

All the people would be the Jews alone.. and not any Gentiles.

There were many Jews, but not all were Jews.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.”
Heb 9:21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.


In Him,

Bill

 

[Clare73]

I don't want to enter into a 'verse contest' but you might ponder on this one...Col 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church...
Here, Paul is experiencing with Jesus His sufferings for the body, in real time, for brothers and sisters, as if the event of the cross was happening now.

Don't you think "what is lacking in Christ's afflictions" refers to the additional suffering required for taking the gospel to the world
after Christ's sufferings were completed in his death?

"Filling up what is lacking" would not be referring to Christ's own personal suffering, but to the additional suffering of Paul and others
needed to give the gospel to mankind.

So eventually the sufferings of Christ on the Cross will all have been experienced by His servants for the healing of the body of Christ - this is sharing in His sufferrings. This is at the heart of the ministry of intercession.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Good Day, Jeffweedman

You might wish to read the fuller context:

so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Many is not all

Bill

I will add all who would find repentance. That could be anyone who has been born.
Sin factor has been dealt with , but only those who repent will reap the reward. The rest will weep and gnash their teeth when Jesus comes again a second time.

They let a majestic salvation slip through their fingers.
God bless.

 

[Carl Emerson]

But I believe Jesus bore our sins in time, not in eternity, even it's effect reaches eternity backward and forward.

A timeless effect has to be from a timeless cause if it is active in past time.

 

[fhansen]

It doesn't have to be written to know that the "unwritten teachings" will not disagree with the written teachings, or with the figurative patterns, types, shadows of the OT, for God does not contradict himself in his word.

That being the case, we have what we need in what is written.
And we don't get to replace it in the name of what was not written.

ok, either way nothing was added.

But it is. . .life is added to the actual flesh and blood sacrifice of Christ which purpose of that sacrifice was death.

"Life" is added-that's a new one for me sorry.

Actually, it does not.

There was no "real presence" in the flesh of the sacrificed animal consumed in the OT sacrificial meals.
To be the actual flesh and blood of the sacrifice does not give it the "real presence" of the life sacrificed.
The whole point of the sacrificial system was death, in payment of the penalty for sin.

So we do not have the "real presence" of Christ in the Lord's Supper, we have his death, his actual sacrificed body and blood
in the Lord's Supper.
The living Christ is already in us. . .so why are we clinging to a false magic regarding his sacrificed (lifeless) body and blood?

Are we not slighting his actual living presence in us. . preferring/needing/wanting a magical presence more than his actual presence in us?

ok-nicely speculated-I guess.

You haven't answered my question if you are lay, religious or cleric?

I said I was a farmer-also a trucker. A fairly religious non-cleric one .

 

[Carl Emerson]

Don't you think "what is lacking in Christ's afflictions" refers to the additional suffering required for taking the gospel to the world
after Christ's sufferings were completed in his death?

No.

"Filling up what is lacking" would not be referring to Christ's own personal suffering, but to the additional suffering of Paul and others
needed to give the gospel to mankind.

No. it is Paul appropriating the sufferings of Christ Himself in the process of being a minister of healing in the Body of Christ.

 

[RickReads]

"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” -- John 8

The Son is one with God and God has the characteristic of extratemporal simultaneity. He exists simultaneously in all moments of time, which is the other side of the coin from omnipresence. Because time and space are a continuum, the Lord exists simultaneously at every point in space and also in every moment of time.

God is existing simultaneously in the moment of Christ's death and in the moments of each our our sins. He is seeing both simultaneously.

We see this displayed in other places, such as Psalm 22.

None of those scriptures prove your contention. God talks about remembering the past and He records it in His books. That`s a far cry from God reliving the past or the past still existing. You have no support for that.

 

[Clare73]

ok, either way nothing was added.
and, as I said, Scripture supports the literal, RP meaning anyway

Actually, it does not.

First of all, Paul states that "whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes,"
(1 Corinthians 11:26) not his "real presence."
We are proclaiming the atoning death of Christ for sin, not some "real presence."
You have added to Paul's teaching.

Paul presenrs the Lord's Supper to be about his atoning death, to which
you add a living "real presence," which is contrary to Paul's teaching.

We do not have the "real presence" of Christ in the Lord's Supper, we have his atoning death for our sin, his actual sacrificed body and blood
that paid for our sin, receiving into ourselves its atoning benefits, as was its pattern in the OT sacrificial system.

The living Christ is already in us. . .so why are we clinging to a false magic regarding his "real presence" in the Lord's Supper.

"Life" is added-that's a new one for me sorry.

Yes, there was no life in the sacrificed flesh of the OT sacrificial meal, which is the pattern for NT sacrificial meal in the Lord's Supper.

ok-nicely speculated-I guess.

1 Corinthians 11:26 and Colossians 1:27 are not speculation.

They are authoritative NT teaching, with which the "real presence" is not in agreement.

 

[fhansen]

Actually, it does not.

First of all, Paul states that "whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes,"
(1 Corinthians 11:26) not his "real presence."
We are proclaiming the atoning death of Christ for sin, not some "real presence."
You have altered Paul's teaching.

We do not have the "real presence" of Christ in the Lord's Supper, we have his atoning death for our sin, his actual sacrificed body and blood
that paid for our sin, receiving into ourselves its atoning benefits, as was its pattern in the OT sacrificial system.

The living Christ is already in us. . .so why are we clinging to a false magic regarding his "real presence" in the Lord's Supper.

Alright. Keep trying.

 

[Clare73]

Alright. Keep trying.

Paul states that "whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes,"
(1 Corinthians 11:26) not his "real presence."

We are proclaiming the atoning death of Christ for sin, not some "real presence."
You have added to Paul's teaching.

Paul presents the Lord's Supper to be about his atoning death, to which
you add a living "real presence," which is actually contrary to Paul's teaching.

We do not have the "real presence" of Christ in the Lord's Supper, we have his atoning death for our sin, his actual sacrificed body
and blood that paid for our sin, receiving into ourselves its atoning benefits, just as it was patterned in the OT sacrificial system.

Are you a lay person? I would apprecite a direct answer.
Thanks.

 

[fhansen]

Paul states that "whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes,"
(1 Corinthians 11:26) not his "real presence."

We are proclaiming the atoning death of Christ for sin, not some "real presence."
You have added to Paul's teaching.

Paul presents the Lord's Supper to be about his atoning death, to which
you add a living "real presence," which is actually contrary to Paul's teaching.

We do not have the "real presence" of Christ in the Lord's Supper, we have his atoning death for our sin, his actual sacrificed body
and blood that paid for our sin, receiving into ourselves its atoning benefits, just as it was patterned in the OT sacrificial system.

Clare, you've shown nothing, except that you can engage in some fairly logical thinking which may point to some truth-or not. You know nothing of what you speak-you have no way of knowing.

Are you a lay person? I would apprecite a direct answer.
Thanks.

Yes, a lay person.

 

[eleos1954]

Agree the sacrifice covers all sins, past, present, future. But was Jesus punished for future sins not yet committed? In what way are they covered?

They are covered because full judgement hasn't happened yet. It's not over yet. When judgement happens His atoning sacrifice is applied to those who are saved (past,present & future) (for eternity).

His life, death and resurrection provides the WAY to salvation.

We have the assurance of salvation .... but do not actually receive salvation until He returns (that is in the future).

1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

We rest in His promises.

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Jeffweedman

You might wish to read the fuller context:

so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Many is not all

You may be confused by this in the context earlier

For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people

All the people would be the Jews alone.. and not any Gentiles.

There were many Jews, but not all were Jews.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.”
Heb 9:21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.


In Him,

Bill

Were all Jews the sacrifice was made for saved?

 

[zoidar]

A timeless effect has to be from a timeless cause if it is active in past time.

I think it's a good question. Were those of the OC covered in the blood of the Lamb? If they were, why did they need to sacrifice bulls and goats? I'm not sure myself how to look at it.

An idea is that Jesus took the sins away, the old sacrifices temporary covered sin, until the true sacrifice.

just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
— Romans 4:6-8

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I was out walking today, thinking about the sacrifice of Christ. Then this question arose, how Jesus could have born all sins that hadn't even been committed yet. How do you reason around this?

I don't even understand how Jesus could bare any sin at all anyway.

Why would God want to hurt someone who sins?
What would that achieve?
Nothing good comes directly from it that I can see?
It doesn't solve anything that I see?

Also, if true, it doesn't sound like a very good God or a God I would care to follow?
How could He punish the wrong person for sins? That's just wrong

It doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Root of Jesse]

If only Scripture agreed with that in Hebrews 7:27.

Thats speaking of the Hebrew priests, whose main job was offering animal sacrifices...not the sacrifice which was once, for all.

 

[zoidar]

... The mundane and the material aren't what our faith is about anyway. Nor is it about hyper-rationalism.

It's a good point.

 

[Clare73]

Clare, you've shown nothing, except that you can engage in some fairly logical thinking which may point to some truth-or not.
You know nothing of what you speak-you have no way of knowing.

But I do know, and I do have a way of knowing, it's the word of God written.

I know 1 Corinthians 11:26 -- that we proclaim the Lord's death in the Lord's Supper, that it's about atonement, not a "real presence,"

I know Colossians 1:27 -- that the living Christ is in me, my hope of glory, there is no need for a magic "real presence,"

I know that in the light of the OT sacrificial system, which is the pattern for Jesus' sacrifice, there is no Biblical warrant for a
living "real presence" in the Lord's Supper,

I know that nowhere does the NT ever present such a notion, it is an invention of man.

And I know that in 2 Samual 6:1-7 God makes clear his displeasure at what he does not authorize in terms of worship.

That is a rather conclusive Biblical demonstration of the matter.

And thanks for being so polite about it all.