The Crusade to Destroy Jack Phillips Continues

[Quartermaine]

Just so we're clear. You believe he is obliged to make any cake that is being asked of him? Any at all?

He advertised and had a long history of making custom wedding cakes

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

He advertised and had a long history of making custom wedding cakes

Let's be clear. You are arguing for a standard wherein no one can who offers a creative product, cakes, for instance, can refuse a commission? That is, if they are asked to make it, they must make what the customer wants, regardless of what that product in question is.

Right?

 

[iarwain]

If a Satanist wanted him to make a cake celebrating Satan, would he be discriminating if he refused the order?

 

[HannahT]

FYI, there is a difference between a person who is a liberal and one who is a leftist.

A liberal is for freedom and would've let Phillips make his own choice.

A leftist is one who want's to force their ideology onto society and will make
laws to be sure that happens.

Dennis Prager did a good job explaining the difference.

Left or Liberal?

I agree with the differences.

I think the term illiberal also applies here.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I wonder if Phillips could avoid this problem by selling cakes that come in a half-dozen styles and that's all.

Most businesses that sell anything to the public do not specialize in customizing every item to reflect the political or religious beliefs of the buyer. We do not expect, for instance, to buy a toothbrush or a hot dog that is emblazoned with a slogan made expressly for that purchaser.

He's already stopped making wedding cakes for anyone...

they are just re trying the same case over and over and over, it doesn't matter that he stopped making wedding cakes for anyone (straight or gay) - they want the court precedent.

This case is now representing a person's right to say their faith means they will follow it in practice.

 

[Albion]

FYI, there is a difference between a person who is a liberal and one who is a leftist.

A liberal is for freedom and would've let Phillips make his own choice.

That once was the meaning of liberal in the political sense, but no more.

Liberal and leftist are used interchangeably today. As a result, the classical liberals have adopted the term "libertarian" in order to distinguish themselves from today's liberals.

 

[Hank77]

like how a kosher deli doesn't sell bacon so declining to make someone a bacon cheese burger is not discrimination.
Masterpiece bakery did make/sell custom wedding cakes so Phillips refusal is discrimination

I wasn't referring to the wedding cake, I was referring to the transgender celebration cake.

 

[Quartermaine]

Let's be clear. You are arguing for a standard wherein no one can who offers a creative product, cakes, for instance, can refuse a commission? That is, if they are asked to make it, they must make what the customer wants, regardless of what that product in question is.

Right?

Lets be clear. You are willfully misrepresenting what is being said.

Jack Phillips was in the business of making wedding cakes. He refused to make a wedding cake for a couple because they were members of a minority and that is and was against the law.

 

[Quartermaine]

If a Satanist wanted him to make a cake celebrating Satan, would he be discriminating if he refused the order?

Does he make cakes celebrating any religious figure? As far as i can tell no, he does not so no, it would not be discrimination.

 

[Albion]

Let's be clear. You are arguing for a standard wherein no one can who offers a creative product, cakes, for instance, can refuse a commission? That is, if they are asked to make it, they must make what the customer wants, regardless of what that product in question is.

Right?

Yes, that seems to summarize the issue correctly.

 

[Hank77]

Does he make cakes celebrating any religious figure? As far as i can tell no, he does not so no, it would not be discrimination.

I'm sure he makes cakes for Easter, the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He makes Christmas cakes celebrating the birth of Jesus.

Should he be forced to make a cake celebrating Satan?

 

[Hank77]

Jack Phillips was in the business of making wedding cakes

True

He refused to make a wedding cake for a couple

True

because they were members of a minority

Not true.
It was NOT because they were members of a minority.
It was because he doesn't make wedding cakes for anyone to celebrate a same-sex wedding.
Anyone who had asked for a cake to celebrate a same-sex wedding would have been told no, he doesn't make cakes to celebrate same-sex unions.
One of those guys' mothers tried to order the cake and he told her no, she is not LGBTQ.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Lets be clear. You are willfully misrepresenting what is being said.

Jack Phillips was in the business of making wedding cakes. He refused to make a wedding cake for a couple because they were members of a minority and that is and was against the law.

\

You object to my characterization of your standard?

Are there circumstances where Jack Phillips or anyone could refuse to make a cake or product that he or they doesn't want to make?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

That once was the meaning of liberal in the political sense, but no more.

Liberal and leftist are used interchangeably today. As a result, the classical liberals have adopted the term "libertarian" in order to distinguish themselves from today's liberals.

I think it meant what "liberal' meant in the classical sense. The political, especially here in the US began as "liberal," then "progressive," but currently "leftist." A liberal is for freedom of speech, whereas the leftist says their for freedom of speech, but will shout down anyone who says something that doesn't follow their agenda and will persecute people who are not in their camp. It's control of society overall that is their goal. We've been watching it taking place in the Universities and Colleges for the past 20 years.

The same could be said of conservative. The classical definition didn't mean a conservative was a racist or anti-Semitic. It merely was a person who chose to keep the traditions that he knew worked and resisted change. That person wasn't necessarily wrong, neither was the liberal, but both tried to listen to each other's opinion.

A progressive in my definition is the same as the classical liberal, and is one who sees a problem and desires to change it. This requires an open progressive mindset to change. However, at the same time, the liberal didn't ignore the tradition, but understood that position to a point and used dialogue to try and convinced the other person of being open to trying a new approach.

Neither exist in our political environment today. We have the two extremes who have the loudest voices. The extremist on the right will use threatening language and actions to try and persuade their side, while the leftist will use the legislature and courts to enforce their ideology. The leftist will win until the right begins to fight back and with violence. We saw this on January 6th in the Capital riot.

Have no doubt about it, we live in very dangerous times and I believe the leftist are winning. The trouble will come when they need to have the government enforce their laws with oppressive measures as has happened in communistic dictatorships in the past. They will always chose the worst kind of people to enforce their laws.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

This was the written opinion by Justice Thomas on the Phillip's case.


"The conduct that the Colorado Court of Appeals ascribed to Phillips—creating and designing custom wedding cakes—is expressive. Phillips considers himself an artist. The logo for Masterpiece Cakeshop is an artist’s paint palate with a paintbrush and baker’s whisk. Behind the counter Phillips has a picture that depicts him as an artist painting on a canvas. Phillips takes exceptional care with each cake that he creates—sketching the design out on paper, choosing the color scheme, creating the frosting and decorations, baking and sculpting the cake, decorating it, and delivering it to the wedding. Examples of his creations can be seen on Masterpiece’s website.

Phillips is an active participant in the wedding celebration. He sits down with each couple for a consultation before he creates their custom wedding cake. He discusses their preferences, their personalities, and the details of their wedding to ensure that each cake reflects the couple 6 MASTERPIECE CAKESHOP, LTD. v. COLORADO CIVIL RIGHTS COMM’N Opinion of THOMAS, J. who ordered it. In addition to creating and delivering the cake—a focal point of the wedding celebration—Phillips sometimes stays and interacts with the guests at the wedding. And the guests often recognize his creations and seek his bakery out afterward. Phillips also sees the inherent symbolism in wedding cakes. To him, a wedding cake inherently communicates that “a wedding has occurred, a marriage has begun, and the couple should be celebrated.” App. 162.

Also:

Accordingly, Phillips’ creation of custom wedding cakes is expressive. The use of his artistic talents to create a well-recognized symbol that celebrates the beginning of a marriage clearly communicates a message—certainly more so than nude dancing, Barnes v. Glen Theatre, Inc., 501 U. S. 560, 565–566 (1991), or flying a plain red flag, Stromberg v. California, 283 U. S. 359, 369 (1931).3 By forcing Phillips to create custom wedding cakes for same sex weddings, Colorado’s public-accommodations law “alter the expressive content” of his message. Hurley, 515 U. S., at 572. The meaning of expressive conduct, this Court has explained, depends on “the context in which it occur.” Johnson, 491 U. S., at 405. Forcing Phillips to make custom wedding cakes for same-sex marriages requires him to, at the very least, acknowledge that samesex weddings are “weddings” and suggest that they should be celebrated—the precise message he believes his faith forbids. The First Amendment prohibits Colorado from requiring Phillips to “bear witness to [these] fact,” Hurley, 515 U. S., at 574, or to “affir[m] . . . a belief with which [he] disagrees,” id., at 573."

 

[JimR-OCDS]

In other words, a custom wedding cake as Phillip's makes is an expression of art.

An artist can not be forced to create such regardless of the law.

An oil painter who runs a studio, can not be forced to create a painting which he does not
agree with, and neither should a baker, wood carver or any other kind of artist.

 

[Albion]

A progressive in my definition is the same as the classical liberal, and is one who sees a problem and desires to change it. This requires an open progressive mindset to change.

I generally agree with what you wrote up to this point, but "progressive" is, as we know, the term chosen by the Left in the past several years in order to escape the bad vibes that "liberal" has with the average American. The rub is that it used to be seen as a synonym for Communist sympathizer, thanks mainly to the fact that Henry Wallace's third party in the 1948 election chose that term for itself and he became known as an apologist for Stalin's USSR as the campaign wore on.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I generally agree with what you wrote up to this point, but "progressive" is, as we know, the term chosen by the Left in the past several years in order to escape the bad vibes that "liberal" has with the average American. The rub is that it used to be seen as a synonym for Communist sympathizer, thanks mainly to the fact that Henry Wallace's third party in the 1948 election chose that term for itself and he became known as an apologist for Stalin's USSR as the campaign wore on.

Of course, but the recent political definitions of Liberal, Progressive and Conservative in the US, never actually fit into the classical definitions of the terms.

Leftist are not progressives. Using that term by leftist is oxymoronic by definition.

 

[Albion]

Of course, but the recent political definitions of Liberal, Progressive and Conservative in the US, never actually fit into the classical definitions of the terms.

Leftist are not progressives. Using that term by leftist is oxymoronic by definition.

Sure, but that is the term that they use, and of course the media go along with it as much as possible, so that's who is being referred to by it today--the Left.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Sure, but that is the term that they use, and of course the media go along with it as much as possible, so that's who is being referred to by it today--the Left.

But the MSM in the US are leftist, so the point I made remains true.