The Crusade to Destroy Jack Phillips Continues

[Hank77]

The couple had already been married in another state so there would have been making a cake and not participating in anything and his refusal was based on who the people trying to order the cake were

No, it was based on WHAT the cake was for, what the celebration was.

 

[loveofourlord]

Let's be clear. You are arguing for a standard wherein no one can who offers a creative product, cakes, for instance, can refuse a commission? That is, if they are asked to make it, they must make what the customer wants, regardless of what that product in question is.

Right?

if they sell X product they have to sell X product. AKA he sells straight wedding cakes, he has to sell a straight wedding cake, he doesn't have to make if a gay wedding cake just provide the materials.

AKA a jewish baker doesn't have to write a nazi message on a cake, but has to sell a cake and provide the customer the means to write the message themselves. It's what one of the lower courts said in this case or another one.

 

[SimplyMe]

if they sell X product they have to sell X product. AKA he sells straight wedding cakes, he has to sell a straight wedding cake, he doesn't have to make if a gay wedding cake just provide the materials.

Actually, you don't have this quite right. If they sell wedding cakes, they have to sell a wedding cake for either a gay or a straight wedding, as in most cases their is no actualy difference, it is simply a wedding cake. Where the exception can come in is that if it is a custom designed cake, refusal can be made based on the First Amendment (Freedom of Speech). If it is a "stock" cake -- one that doesn't require a special design, but that the baker has made previously -- then it would appear the cake would need to be made (in states where gays are included in equal access civil rights laws, such as Colorado).

The issue where Phillips got into trouble with Colorado is that he rejected the gays a wedding cake before hearing what they wanted. The Supreme Court did not rule that Colorado's standard was wrong in this case; merely that there was bias toward Phillips (at least one members was prejudiced against Phillips which prevented a fair hearing) and, in this case only, overturned the decision against Phillips.

AKA a jewish baker doesn't have to write a nazi message on a cake, but has to sell a cake and provide the customer the means to write the message themselves. It's what one of the lower courts said in this case or another one.

Two things here. First, in the case of Nazis, the cake can be refused -- Nazis are not part of a protected class (gender, nationality, race, disability, etc.). Second, no message has to be put on any cake, nor do the materials need to be given to write the message. If it is an "off the shelf" cake, then the law states that the customer cannot be refused for being part of a protected class; but if it is a custom made cake, then the baker can claim First Amendment protections to not make/sell the cake.

 

[iarwain]

The Supreme Court did not rule that Colorado's standard was wrong in this case; merely that there was bias toward Phillips (at least one members was prejudiced against Phillips which prevented a fair hearing) and, in this case only, overturned the decision against Phillips.

Kind of a cop out on the part of the Supreme Court, I thought.

Two things here. First, in the case of Nazis, the cake can be refused -- Nazis are not part of a protected class (gender, nationality, race, disability, etc.). Second, no message has to be put on any cake, nor do the materials need to be given to write the message. If it is an "off the shelf" cake, then the law states that the customer cannot be refused for being part of a protected class; but if it is a custom made cake, then the baker can claim First Amendment protections to not make/sell the cake.

So I'm guessing a liberal could refuse to bake a Trump cake for a Trump supporter? Since Trump supporters are not part of a protected class. But could a Trump supporter refuse to bake a liberal cake, since liberals are a protected class?

That last sentence is just a joke. I think.

 

[Quartermaine]

If he was refusing to do a KKK cake, none of this would be happening. (As horrible as they are, it's supposedly about being "all inclusive".)

what is a KKK cake?

 

[Quartermaine]

No, it's WHAT the cake is for.

its for your friend...but if you refer to your friend as a 'what' then i doubt you are much of a friend.

 

[Quartermaine]

No, it was based on WHAT the cake was for, what the celebration was.

Who else woudl be celebrating that?

Phillips tried to claim his refusal was about what the cake was for in his every court appearance including with the Supreme Court. No judge accepted this claim because there is no way to separate what the cake is for from who it is for. This was summed up in the ruling of the Colorado Court of Appeals:
"conduct cannot be divorced from status. This is so
when the conduct is so closely correlated with the status that it is
engaged in exclusively or predominantly by persons who have that
particular status. We conclude that the act of same-sex marriage
constitutes such conduct because it is “engaged in exclusively or
predominantly” by gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. Masterpiece’s
distinction, therefore, is one without a difference. But for their
sexual orientation, Craig and Mullins would not have sought to
enter into a same-sex marriage, and but for their intent to do so,
Masterpiece would not have denied them its services. "
Craig and Mullins v. Masterpiece Cakeshop. Opinion by JUDGE TAUBMAN

 

[SimplyMe]

Kind of a cop out on the part of the Supreme Court, I thought.


So I'm guessing a liberal could refuse to bake a Trump cake for a Trump supporter? Since Trump supporters are not part of a protected class. But could a Trump supporter refuse to bake a liberal cake, since liberals are a protected class?

That last sentence is just a joke. I think.

No, liberals are not a protected class. OTOH, Christians are a protected class (Religion), and have the same protections against denial of service as gays.

 

[hedrick]

While the Supreme Court has avoided making real decisions, I sm fairly sure that when they finally do putting Nazi messages on a cake won’t be required. It would be compelled speech. However if you make wedding cakes I would expect you to make it for a Satanist wedding, as long as there was no message on it. I use that rather than Nazi because in Colorado religion is a protected class, but political party is not.

I think if Phillips had talked to the gay couple they would have ended up wanting something on the cake that he could have legitimately rejected as symbolic speech. Similarly, I think the red and blue in the recent case is also symbolic speech, and if the Supreme Court doesn’t find a way to avoid the issue they will support him.

 

[Chrystal-J]

what is a KKK cake?

What is a transgendered cake? KKK makes more sense--even if it is evil.
ETA, it's a group with an (evil) purpose. Transgendered is just a "feeling".

 

[Quartermaine]

While the Supreme Court has avoided making real decisions, I sm fairly sure that when they finally do putting Nazi messages on a cake won’t be required. It would be compelled speech. However if you make wedding cakes I would expect you to make it for a Satanist wedding, as long as there was no message on it. I use that rather than Nazi because in Colorado religion is a protected class, but political party is not.

I think if Phillips had talked to the gay couple they would have ended up wanting something on the cake that he could have legitimately rejected as symbolic speech. Similarly, I think the red and blue in the recent case is also symbolic speech, and if the Supreme Court doesn’t find a way to avoid the issue they will support him.

I dun't know about that. According to the news 6 this is the cake that they got from a baker who was happy to have their business

 

[Quartermaine]

What is a transgendered cake? KKK makes more sense--even if it is evil.
ETA, it's a group with an (evil) purpose. Transgendered is just a "feeling".

I know what a wedding cake is and what a birthday cake is.
SO tell us just what a KKK cake is.

 

[Chrystal-J]

I know what a wedding cake is and what a birthday cake is.
SO tell us just what a KKK cake is.

Anniversary of a chapter? With a burning cross on top. Should a baker be forced to bake that?

 

[loveofourlord]

What is a transgendered cake? KKK makes more sense--even if it is evil.
ETA, it's a group with an (evil) purpose. Transgendered is just a "feeling".

Terrible joke, but a pie that self identifies as a cake? :>

 

[iluvatar5150]

I know what a wedding cake is and what a birthday cake is.
SO tell us just what a KKK cake is.

It’s pronounced “KKKake.”