The history of how Sunday worship came about

[BobRyan]

All Sabbaths were the same--a day of rest.

Only one of them was given in Eden - Gen 2:1-3 ... not "all"
Only one of them is in the Ten Commandments - Ex 20:8-11... not "all"

Only one of them is affirmed by Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate in almost all major denominations... not "all of them in Lev 23".

Bible details are very important.

 

[klutedavid]

I see your list does not include "do not take God's name in vain" and "have no other God's before Me" and "Love God with all your heart"... interesting.

That's John's list of the commandments not my list.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

It is very clear that the commandments that John was referring to in his letter (1 John), are the two commandments above.

'just as He commanded us'

Heb 8:6-12 says Jesus gave ALL the commandments at Sinai.

Hebrews 8:8-9
Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers.

The new covenant involves a change in the law given at Mt Sinai.

Hebrews 7:12
For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

Tell me Bob. What law changed?

Jesus flat out condemns setting aside the commandments of God in Mark 7:6-12

The problem you have with this quotation is that Jesus is talking to the Jews. The Jews were under the old covenant and agreed to obey the book of the covenant. The Jews had to obey the Sabbath on pain of death in Israel. There is no record of any Gentile being executed for not obeying the Sabbath day. Either in Israel or in any other nation.

The Gentile nations were not members of that old covenant. The Gentiles were never given the law. The Levitical priesthood was unknown to the Gentile nations. The chair of Moses never governed a Gentile nation. The Gentile nations were never slaves in Egypt. The Gentile nations never even knew the God of the Old Testament.

In Matt 19 Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" and when specifically asked "which ones" - he quotes from the Law of Moses exclusively

Jesus is talking to the Jews and not addressing the Gentile nations.

Here is what God has told the Gentiles to obey.

Acts 15:19-20
Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

That list of rules for the Gentiles is missing the ten commandments. That is the scripture, Bob.

 

[The Liturgist]

How do you justify your position in light of that verse? Because I feel this entire thread entails judging Christians based on the specific way they observe the sabbath, and threatening damnation on those who simply trust John 3:16. @Albion’s point that the New Testament feels absent was apros pos. I mean, people aren’t even acknowledging the identity of the Word based on John 1.

key word rest

Hebrews 4
Easy-to-Read Version

4 And we still have the promise that God gave those people. That promise is that we can enter his place of rest. So we should be very careful that none of you fails to get that promise. 2 Yes, the good news about it was told to us just as it was to them. But the message they heard did not help them. They heard it but did not accept it with faith. 3 Only we who believe it are able to enter God’s place of rest. As God said,

“I was angry and made a promise:
‘They will never enter my place of rest.’”

But God’s work was finished from the time he made the world. 4 Yes, somewhere in the Scriptures he talked about the seventh day of the week. He said, “So on the seventh day God rested from all his work.” 5 But in the Scripture above God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.”

6 So the opportunity is still there for some to enter and enjoy God’s rest. But those who first heard the good news about it did not enter, because they did not obey. 7 So God planned another special day. It is called “today.” He spoke about that day through David a long time later using the words we quoted before:

“If you hear God’s voice today,
don’t be stubborn.”

8 We know that Joshua did not lead the people into the place of rest that God promised. We know this because God spoke later about another day for rest. 9 This shows that the seventh-day rest for God’s people is still to come. 10 God rested after he finished his work. So everyone who enters God’s place of rest will also have rest from their own work just as God did. 11 So let us try as hard as we can to enter God’s place of rest. We must try hard so that none of us will be lost by following the example of those who refused to obey God.

12 God’s word is alive and working. It is sharper than the sharpest sword and cuts all the way into us. It cuts deep to the place where the soul and the spirit are joined. God’s word cuts to the center of our joints and our bones. It judges the thoughts and feelings in our hearts. 13 Nothing in all the world can be hidden from God. He can clearly see all things. Everything is open before him. And to him we must explain the way we have lived.

Jesus Christ Is Our High Priest
14 We have a great high priest who has gone to live with God in heaven. He is Jesus the Son of God. So let us continue to express our faith in him. 15 Jesus, our high priest, is able to understand our weaknesses. When Jesus lived on earth, he was tempted in every way. He was tempted in the same ways we are tempted, but he never sinned. 16 With Jesus as our high priest, we can feel free to come before God’s throne where there is grace. There we receive mercy and kindness to help us when we need it.

Footnotes

1. Hebrews 4:4 Quote from Gen. 2:2.
2. Hebrews 4:9 seventh-day rest Literally, “Sabbath rest,” meaning a sharing in the rest God began after he created the world.
3. Hebrews 4:12 God’s word God’s teachings and commands.

All references to the Word are equally applicable or more applicable to Christ Jesus, in that as the Pantocrator, on the judgement seat, He is a double-edged sword, and no respecter of persons.

 

[Clare73]

No it doesn't. Maybe you should re-read the NT because Jesus talks all about the Sabbath throughout the NT. He was even accused of breaking the Sabbath, which He wasn't, so therefore He was keeping it, like He did all of His Fathers commandments and asked us to as well. John 15:10

Indeed. . .and it's first and basic principle is, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

And the NT full-time Sabbath rest from our own works, and rest in Jesus' finished work to save is made for man.

 

[The Liturgist]

That's John's list of the commandments not my list.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

It is very clear that the commandments that John was referring to in his letter (1 John), are the two commandments above.

'just as He commanded us'

Hebrews 8:8-9
Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers.

The new covenant involves a change in the law given at Mt Sinai.

Hebrews 7:12
For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

Tell me Bob. What law changed?The problem you have with this quotation is that Jesus is talking to the Jews. The Jews were under the old covenant and agreed to obey the book of the covenant. The Jews had to obey the Sabbath on pain of death in Israel. There is no record of any Gentile being executed for not obeying the Sabbath day. Either in Israel or in any other nation.

The Gentile nations were not members of that old covenant. The Gentiles were never given the law. The Levitical priesthood was unknown to the Gentile nations. The chair of Moses never governed a Gentile nation. The Gentile nations were never slaves in Egypt. The Gentile nations never even knew the God of the Old Testament.Jesus is talking to the Jews and not addressing the Gentile nations.

Here is what God has told the Gentiles to obey.

Acts 15:19-20
Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

That list of rules for the Gentiles is missing the ten commandments. That is the scripture, Bob.

And the New Testament makes it clear that the Old Testament is a prophecy or type of the events that happen in the New Testament. For mentioning which someone horribly insulted me yesterday.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

All Sabbaths were the same--a day of rest.

There is more than one Sabbath in the Bible. There is the weekly Sabbath that was established at creation Genesis 2:3 and is part of God's moral and eternal commandments found in Exodus 20:8-11 and the Yearly Sabbath(s) festivals which is ceremonial and all about food and drink which if read in context is what Colossians is referring to.

 

[BobRyan]

key word rest

Matt 11 "Come unto Me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest" - before the cross Christ was giving rest - and was not deleting His own Ten Commandments.

The supposed war between the rest Christ gives and His own Sabbath memorial of His finished work at Creation - does not exist and never did exist.

No wonder He tells us that for all eternity after the cross, in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

No wonder Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations freely admit that all TEN of God's commandments were given to mankind in Eden and all TEN are written on the heart under the Jer 31:31-34 "New Covenant"

 

[mmksparbud]

[ THEQUOTE="Clare73, post: 75957231, member: 309690"]The NT disagrees with you (Colossians 2:16-17).[/QUOTE]


never mind---answered by imge.

 

[BobRyan]

The NT disagrees with you (Colossians 2:16-17).

• that new testament text does not mention the 7th day Sabbath of the Ten Commandments.
• that new testament chapter - condemns man-made-religion and "making stuff up" but does not condemn even one single text of scripture.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Indeed. . .and it's first and basic principle is, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

And the NT full-time Sabbath rest from our own works, and rest in Jesus' finished work to save is made for man.

Man was created on the six day and the Sabbath was the very next day. God made Sabbath for man, not man for the Sabbath

The commandment is this Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Can get any easier to understand. God wrote this scripture with His very own hand for us and stored it along with the other 9 commandments in the most holy of holy in His Temple. Seems sacred to me, wish more people could see what is right in front of them....

 

[BobRyan]

That's John's list of the commandments not my list.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John said "This IS the Love of God - that we KEEP God's Commandments"

Jesus said in Mark 7:6-13 that God's Commandments include the TEN.

Paul also points this out in Eph 6:1-2 that the unit of law "the TEN" where "the first commandment with a promise" is "Honor your father and mother" still applies to all Christians.

It is very clear that the commandments the NT writers were talking about included the TEN - as we see Christ quote from them in Mark 7, and in Matt 19 and we see Paul does the same thing in Rom 13.

Bible details soooo easy to see that Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations - on BOTH sides the Sabbath debate - admit to seeing them.

 

[Clare73]

The annual Sabbaths of Lev 23 were "shadows" pointing forward to Christ, originating at Sinai and not given to mankind in Eden.

By contrast the weekly Sabbath originated in Eden for mankind

The Saturday Sabbath originated in heaven with God's rest, not in Eden.

All Sabbaths were the same--a day of rest.
God made no distinction between them, nor regulated them differently.

 

[klutedavid]

And the New Testament makes it clear that the Old Testament is a prophecy or type of the events that happen in the New Testament. For mentioning which someone horribly insulted me yesterday.

Agree absolutely. The entire Old Testament prefigures the Christ, and especially the law. Jesus was the only person that obeyed the law to the letter. Moses wrote excessively about Jesus in the law. Jesus was the only person that loved everyone and far beyond the requirement of any law. The Christ was the predetermined fulfillment of the law in it's entirety.

The deepest deception is that we can obey the law. We don't even get close to obeying any of the commandments. We actually should have understood that when we crucified our own creator. That we were at a lethal enmity with God. We transgress not only moral law but civil law, taxation law, health laws, road regulations. The list of transgression is endless.

Jesus said no one is good and so did Paul, who am I to argue with them.

 

[mmksparbud]

How do you justify your position in light of that verse? Because I feel this entire thread entails judging Christians based on the specific way they observe the sabbath, and threatening damnation on those who simply trust John 3:16. @Albion’s point that the New Testament feels absent was apros pos. I mean, people aren’t even acknowledging the identity of the Word based on John 1.




All references to the Word are equally applicable or more applicable to Christ Jesus, in that as the Pantocrator, on the judgement seat, He is a double-edged sword, and no respecter of persons.

LOOK! Not one 1st day keeper will EVER be judged by any 7th day keeper!! JUDGEMENT IS GOD'S ALONE! No one has to write books and books of made up stuff and twisted scriptures---don 't want to keep the 7th day Sabbath? Then don't. We are here to answer questions according to the knowledge we have of the scriptures because Jesus said we are to teach all nations to do as He did. We believe the scriptures are very clear about the Sabbath and so we teach it as we see it. We do not want anyone standing before God trying to explain to Him why they refused to "Remember the 7th day," or turn to some 7th day keeper and say we didn't tell them. God is not going to punish anyone for what they have not been informed about. But He will condemn those that have had the message and did not relate it. We can't keep silent for the convenience of others.

 

[Clare73]

What part of the Sabbath was made for man do you not understand? Man was created on the six day and the Sabbath was the very next day.
God created man for the Sabbath, not the Sabbath for man.

Surely you aren't serious. . .
Jesus' words are just chopped liver?

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

Surely you aren't going to try to come up with a "creative" way to make his words state the opposite of what they actually state, right?

 

[The Liturgist]

Man was created on the six day and the Sabbath was the very next day. God created man for the Sabbath, not the Sabbath for man.

I think you got that backwards there...

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Saturday Sabbath originated in heaven with God's rest, not in Eden.

All Sabbaths were the same--a day of rest.
God made no distinction between them, nor regulated them differently.

What do you make of this commandment? Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy.

God does not need rest. He commanded us to keep holy His seventh day Sabbath. Ceasing our work is part of the commandment, but He tells us to keep holy His seventh day. Exodus 20:8-11

Ezekiel 20:20 hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words,

Notice none of those verses is a commandment to Christ to do something for us.

I hope you will consider in prayer.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Surely you aren't serious. . .
Jesus' words are just chopped liver?

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

Surely you aren't going to try to come up with a "creative" way to make his words state the opposite of what they actually state, right?

That’s what I said, Jesus said it first. He made Sabbath for man which equals me and you. Not sure how you could interpret it any other way, but you do have an interesting way of interpreting scripture.

Man was made on the sixth day and the Sabbath was the very next day, God made the Sabbath for man. He made Sabbath for us to keep holy Exodus 20:8.

EDIT: I did mix up Mark 2:27 was citing from memory while multitasking. I corrected it, the sentiment is the same though.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I think you got that backwards there...

Are you saying the Sabbath was made on the sixth day and man on the seventh? Maybe a quick read on Genesis would help.

EDIT: I did mix up Mark 2:27 was citing from memory while multitasking. I corrected it, the sentiment is the same though.

 

[klutedavid]

John said "This IS the Love of God - that we KEEP God's Commandments"

Jesus said in Mark 7:6-13 that God's Commandments include the TEN.

Paul also points this out in Eph 6:1-2 that the unit of law "the TEN" where "the first commandment with a promise" is "Honor your father and mother" still applies to all Christians.

It is very clear that the commandments the NT writers were talking about included the TEN - as we see Christ quote from them in Mark 7, and in Matt 19 and we see Paul does the same thing in Rom 13.

Bible details soooo easy to see that Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations - on BOTH sides the Sabbath debate - admit to seeing them.

Bob, you have made a mistake.

The ten commandments are not the commandments we were given.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us...

Where is the commandment to believe in Jesus in the ten commandments?

You have the wrong set of commandments. Your ten commandments will condemn everyone, grant them the knowledge of their sin. Then the ten commandments will condemn them to death and rightly so. The law was given to an evil people, a rebellious and dangerous nation. The law they never will obey because they cannot obey the law.

Gentiles were specifically told the following.

Acts 15:19-20
Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

Why do you trouble the Gentiles with a yoke that the Jews could never obey?