• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

Status
Not open for further replies.

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,631
5,577
USA
✟722,835.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Hi Leaf, I believe you will never get the real straight answer as to what SDAs believe.

This is an unfounded statement considering we have thousands of posts that very clearly states what we believe in, no need to guess what the SDA church believes in, its also posted on the SDA church website and goes in detail through each statement of our beliefs.
What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? | Adventist.org No mystery here. I even have what I believe on my tagline.

It seems like your mission is to try to destroy the 22 million members of the SDA church. I'm not sure why you would invest so much energy into this, but I wish you nothing but peace and love. God bless
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Freth
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,302
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,064.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't believe you have ever really explained which commandments of God we are to keep.
It seems to me like in any discussion about keeping *some* of the Old testament commandments, having a list can make the discussion much more efficient.

In addition, the process of making a list of specific laws to be kept will, imo, lead the list maker to see that there is some amount of personal opinion involved, or being led by the holy Spirit (how ever one wants to put it).

And I'm fine with all of that.

And at that point, we can all acknowledge that's what is going on.
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,508
704
66
Michigan
✟494,339.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Interesting, One of the problems I have seen is big churches become big business, lot of money floating around some of them. Some of the big charismatic churches play the name it and claim it thinking a bit too much. One thing about it, once you get on the inner circle, you find out the leadership is just as human as anyone else.
Leaving family tradition can strain relationships especially when the family is dogmatic about their beliefs. One thing I have observed is the more legalistic denominations has major issues with someone challenging their theology, or lack of it. I guess that's why God gave us a brain and free will, to think for ourselves.

Religious business, whether big or small, isn't what Jesus promoted. The word "Legalistic" is coined by, created by and promoted by religious franchises both big and small. It is not mentioned or defined anywhere in the Holy Scriptures. It is 100% the creation of religious man, like Christmas and the ever popular image of God in the Likeness of some handsome, long haired men's hair shampoo model.

I look forward to examining scriptures for the purpose doctrine, that is, to discern what doctrines are from the God of the Bible, and which are from the religious philosophies of man.

That is why God gave us a mind, and had written for our admonition, the Holy Scriptures. So we can think for ourselves apart from religious traditions of the land we are born into.
 
Upvote 0

RBPerry

Christian Baby Boomer
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2013
808
302
77
Northern California
✟134,232.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Religious business, whether big or small, isn't what Jesus promoted. The word "Legalistic" is coined by, created by and promoted by religious franchises both big and small. It is not mentioned or defined anywhere in the Holy Scriptures. It is 100% the creation of religious man, like Christmas and the ever popular image of God in the Likeness of some handsome, long haired men's hair shampoo model.

I look forward to examining scriptures for the purpose doctrine, that is, to discern what doctrines are from the God of the Bible, and which are from the religious philosophies of man.

That is why God gave us a mind, and had written for our admonition, the Holy Scriptures. So we can think for ourselves apart from religious traditions of the land we are born into.

Truth is most of religious dogma is coined by religious people. Would you feel better if I said those who wish to live by the old and new covenant instead of legalistic. The bible was written by men, added to by men and women. There are too many contradictions in the bible to say a literal interpretation is God inspired. For instance we know the heavens and earth wasn't created in six days, so literally from the first book of the bible we have problem with a literal interpretation.
There are many solid truths in the bible and great wisdom, and Jesus gave us examples of how He wants us to live. His commandments were simple and straight forward, no one needs to be a theologian to understand what He taught. Like Westley said, "Love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself and all the rest is just commentary." If everything we do is based on loving God, ourselves, and others then everything else seems to fall in place. Yes, we do need to love ourselves, because if we don't we can't love others. We do need to think for ourselves, but that doesn't mean to ignore the wisdom and knowledge of others.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
If we are led by the spirit we are not under the law. The phrase "under the law" as it appears in Galatians and Corinthians is a different set of Greek words then what is used in Romans 3:19? Are we in agreement on the above things?

Hello Leaf,

The Greek words used are indeed different but the meanings are similar. What therefore determines meaning application and interpretation is context for the both Greek and Hebrew languages. This is why I provided the contexts earlier (here) was to show that the role of the law is to give us the knowledge of what sin is and that the law by showing us what sin is gives no one any excuse both Jew and Gentile that the whole world (every mouth may be stopped) and that the whole world is guilty before God of breaking Gods’ commandments (sin).

This is all demonstrated in he contexts of Romans 3:9-20 to show us that no one is righteous before God by keeping the law because we have all broken the law *Romans 3:23 and all the law does is to give us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20.

It might be good to explain the Greek words use for “Under the law” here as it matches the contexts already explained here perfectly and is a correct English translation but the actual Greek means more it mean to be “in the law” or surrounded by the law.

The Greek translation is..

Romans 3:19 [19], οίδαμεν δε ότι όσα ο νόμος λέγει τοις εν τω νόμω λαλεί ίνα παν στόμα φραγή και υπόδικος γένηται πας ο κόσμος τω θεώ

Romans 3:19 [19], Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G1722
ἐν (en | en) Derivation: a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); Strong's: "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc. KJV: —about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (… sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.

...............

Even though, most translations translate the Greek word ἐν as “under” the νόμω “law” the meaning is actually broader in the original Greek meaning to be “in or surrounded by the law.

That is if you think of a dot in the middle of a circle or sphere that is the meaning of εν τω νόμω “under the law”. It means to be surrounded by. We therefore are the dot here and the circle we are in the middle of in is the law.

None of the above of course changes the meaning to the context that has already been demonstrated in Romans 3:9-20 that the law shows us that we are all guilty before God of sin.

...............

PARALLEL TRANSLATIONS

New International Version
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

English Standard Version
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

Berean Study Bible
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

Berean Literal Bible
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those under the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be under judgment to God.

King James Bible
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

New King James Version
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

New American Standard Bible
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

NASB 1995
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

NASB 1977
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God;

Amplified Bible
Now we know that whatever the Law [of Moses] says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that [the excuses of] every mouth may be silenced [from protesting] and that all the world may be held accountable to God [and subject to His judgment].

American Standard Version
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But we know that whatever things The Written Law has said, it has said to those who are into The Written Law, that every mouth may be shut and the whole universe may be guilty before God,

Douay-Rheims Bible
Now we know, that what things soever the law speaketh, it speaketh to them that are in the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be made subject to God.

English Revised Version
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:

Good News Translation
Now we know that everything in the Law applies to those who live under the Law, in order to stop all human excuses and bring the whole world under God's judgment.

International Standard Version
Now we know that whatever the Law says applies to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

Literal Standard Version
And we have known that as many things as the Law says, to those in the Law it speaks, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God;

NET Bible
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

New Heart English Bible
Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.

Weymouth New Testament
But it cannot be denied that all that the Law says is addressed to those who are living under the Law, in order that every mouth may be stopped, and that the whole world may await sentence from God.

World English Bible
Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.

Young's Literal Translation
And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God

…………….

So the meaning here ether “in the law (dot in the circle)” or “under the law” the meaning is the same. That is wherever you go we cannot escape God’s requirements of His law and if we break any one of God’s 10 commandements we stand guilty before God of sin. This of course includes Gods’ 4th commandment which is one of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break them *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.

Hope this is helpful.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,302
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,064.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Leaf,

There is only one will of God and one Truth. God wrote His will on stone and its the only scripture God wrote with His own finger and spoke with His own voice, stored in the most holy of God's temple. I provided a lot of scripture that shows how sacred God's commandments are to God. TBH I haven't seen a lot of scriptures in your posts over the last few months and you have changed your stance on your interpretation in the past couple weeks. I also noticed you never really address any scripture I provide, you just state your opinion that my interpretation is wrong and yours is right.

Maybe you do know a lot about the Hebrew or Greek languages, I haven't really noticed that in your posts so I couldn't say you are an "expert" at language as I would have no idea. My father studied the old languages and he does not interpret scriptures the way you do and he also has a Ph.D. in theology and a masters in history.

I think we are at an impasse and we are going to have to agree to disagree. I believe in God's laws, I love Jesus and He asked me to obey. I'm not sure how you could interpret it any other way, but for your sake I hope you're right and I am wrong that me obeying God's laws is just something extra I'm doing. I do it though out of love for Jesus. I know when my child disobeyed me , I never felt the love like when she cared about my rules and obeyed, not because she wanted to, more out of respect and because she loves me.

God bless
Hi imge,
Well, not only do you and I interpret the scriptures differently, it looks like we have a very different perception of what has been going on in our exchanges!

That's great that your father had lots of education. Of course, lots of other people with the same level of education have reached different conclusions.

What this all says to me is that the Bible says a lot of different things, and how we "put the pieces together" will determine where we "end up".

If you want to end our discussion, that's fine.

God bless you!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: pasifika
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Hi Leaf, I believe you will never get the real straight answer as to what SDAs believe. Maybe this will suffice, they believe they are the only true church, the remnant, and all other churches are teaching falsehood. What a member might tell you could be much different than what the church doctrines are. They take their cue from Ellen White's writings. Those writings supersede everything. That is why one poster starts most of his/her posts with something like "that is not true ...".

There are many books out there that expose Adventism's doctrines in a very detailed way. They are great people that have been led to believe they are the true church.

There is no truth in your claims here Bob. Your claiming things here that are simply not true and promoting misinformation.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,302
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,064.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hello Leaf,

The Greek words used are indeed different but the meanings are similar. What therefore determines meaning application and interpretation is context for the both Greek and Hebrew languages. This is why I provided the contexts earlier (here) was to show that the role of the law is to give us the knowledge of what sin is and that the law by showing us what sin is gives no one any excuse both Jew and Gentile that the whole world (every mouth may be stopped) and that the whole world is guilty before God of breaking Gods’ commandments (sin).

This is all demonstrated in he contexts of Romans 3:9-20 to show us that no one is righteous before God by keeping the law because we have all broken the law *Romans 3:23 and all the law does is to give us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20.

It might be good to explain the Greek words use for “Under the law” here as it matches the contexts already explained here perfectly and is a correct English translation but the actual Greek means more it mean to be “in the law” or surrounded by the law.

The Greek translation is..

Romans 3:19 [19], οίδαμεν δε ότι όσα ο νόμος λέγει τοις εν τω νόμω λαλεί ίνα παν στόμα φραγή και υπόδικος γένηται πας ο κόσμος τω θεώ

Romans 3:19 [19], Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G1722
ἐν (en | en) Derivation: a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); Strong's: "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc. KJV: —about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (… sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.

...............

Even though, most translations translate the Greek word ἐν as “under” the λέγει “law” the meaning is actually broader in the original Greek meaning to be “in or surrounded by the law.

That is if you think of a dot in the middle of a circle or sphere that is the meaning of λέγει τοις ενunder the law”. It means to be surrounded by. We therefore are the dot here and the circle we are in the middle of in is the law.

None of the above of course changes the meaning to the context that has already been demonstrated in Romans 3:9-20 that the law shows us that we are all guilty before God of sin.

...............

PARALLEL TRANSLATIONS

New International Version
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

English Standard Version
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

Berean Study Bible
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

Berean Literal Bible
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those under the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be under judgment to God.

King James Bible
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

New King James Version
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

New American Standard Bible
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

NASB 1995
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

NASB 1977
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God;

Amplified Bible
Now we know that whatever the Law [of Moses] says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that [the excuses of] every mouth may be silenced [from protesting] and that all the world may be held accountable to God [and subject to His judgment].

American Standard Version
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But we know that whatever things The Written Law has said, it has said to those who are into The Written Law, that every mouth may be shut and the whole universe may be guilty before God,

Douay-Rheims Bible
Now we know, that what things soever the law speaketh, it speaketh to them that are in the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be made subject to God.

English Revised Version
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:

Good News Translation
Now we know that everything in the Law applies to those who live under the Law, in order to stop all human excuses and bring the whole world under God's judgment.

International Standard Version
Now we know that whatever the Law says applies to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

Literal Standard Version
And we have known that as many things as the Law says, to those in the Law it speaks, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God;

NET Bible
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

New Heart English Bible
Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.

Weymouth New Testament
But it cannot be denied that all that the Law says is addressed to those who are living under the Law, in order that every mouth may be stopped, and that the whole world may await sentence from God.

World English Bible
Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.

Young's Literal Translation
And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God

…………….

So the meaning here ether “in the law (dot in the circle)” or “under the law” the meaning is the same. That is wherever you go we cannot escape God’s requirements of His law and if we break any one of God’s 10 commandements we stand guilty before God of sin. This of course includes Gods’ 4th commandment which is one of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break them *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.

Hope this is helpful.
Well, a question here before we get too far,

Are you saying that, based on the context, the Greek phrase
"λέγει τοις εν"
can be rightly translated as
"under the law"?
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Well, a question here before we get too far,

Are you saying that, based on the context, the Greek phrase
"λέγει τοις εν"
can be rightly translated as
"under the law"?

I think it is pretty clear what was posted to you. What do you think the last post is saying? You were provided a very detailed response in the Greek and to it's meanings supported by the context of Romans 3:9-23 that supports interpretation. One of the meanings of the Greek word ἐν is "under" so it is a correct translation but as I said earlier in the Greek it meaning is more it means to be "under" or "in" as surrounded by like a dot in sphere" it is a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position in place, time or state. So the meaning can be translated as "Under the Law" or "In the law" to full Greek however is to be surrounded by. All these interpretations are correct in English that is why the Parallel translations and the Greek was provided. Now what is it you disagree with?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,302
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,064.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think it is pretty clear what was posted to you. What do you think the last post is saying? You were provided a very detailed response in the Greek and to it's meanings supported by the context of Romans 3:9-23 that supports interpretation.
For your own sake, I'm recommending that you check your sources again.

Are you saying that "λέγει" is properly translated law?

And the phrase "λέγει τοις εν" means in this case "under the law"?

What is the function of the word "τοις", in your understanding?
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
For your own sake, I'm recommending that you check your sources again.

My sources for the definition of ἐν to "under" or "in or surrounded"

1. Greek Lexicon of the New Testament by Abbott and Smith
2. Combined Word dictionaries BDB and Thayer
3. Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew and Thayer Greek definitions
4. Liddell/Scott/Jones Greek-English Lexicon
5. Hebrew and Greek dictionaries with TVM Strongs (posted in the last post)

Parallel translations to Romans 3:19 "under the law" or "in the law" were provided by BibleHub

You may want to also check out

Precept Austin on Romans 3:19 the Greek word ἐν to "under"
Under (1722) (en) means "in" in the sense of locative of sphere. Think of a dot within a circle. In the present context those who hear the Law spoken (Jews audibly, Gentiles in their heart through their conscience and thoughts) are "the dot" and they are surrounded by the Law. In other words, those referred to here are within the sphere of the law, that is, practically speaking they are legally within its jurisdiction.
Are you saying that "λέγει" is properly translated law?
No why would I say that. Arr I see I highlighted the wrong section of the Greek passage. Apologies for a misunderstanding. It is now corrected in the original post # 1165 linked
And the phrase "λέγει τοις εν" means in this case "under the law"?
Of course not see εν τω νόμω "under the law"
What is the function of the word "τοις", in your understanding?
Definite article to "the law" which supports what has been shared with you. Now what is it that you disagree with and why?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,631
5,577
USA
✟722,835.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Hi imge,
Well, not only do you and I interpret the scriptures differently, it looks like we have a very different perception of what has been going on in our exchanges!
God bless you!

Indeed!
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,302
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,064.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My sources for the definition of ἐν to "under" or "in or surrounded"
Yes, I basically agree with that :)

No why would I say that.

Arr I see I highlighted the wrong section of the Greek passage. Apologies for a misunderstanding. It is now corrected in the earlier post
No problem, I just wanted to make sure we were definitely talking about the same thing.

Definite article to "the law" which supports what has been shared with you.
Close! It is a definite article which corresponds to the English "to those".

In the phrase "ἐν τῷ νόμῳ" the definite article that relates to νόμῳ or law is "τῷ".
Now what is it that you disagree with and why?
I don't think I disagree with anything so far. Let's see how it goes with the next part.

Taking your meaning of the phrase "under the law"
That is wherever you go we cannot escape God’s requirements of His law and if we break any one of God’s 10 commandements we stand guilty before God of sin.
and applying it to "under the law" in Galatians, we arrive at:

If we are led by the spirit,
we are not (in the situation of)
wherever you go we cannot escape God’s requirements of His law and if we break any one of God’s 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin.

And I agree with that sentence. Do you agree with it?
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I don't think I disagree with anything so far. Let's see how it goes with the next part.

Taking your meaning of the phrase "under the law"
and applying it to "under the law" in Galatians, we arrive at:

If we are led by the spirit,
we are not (in the situation of)
wherever you go we cannot escape God’s requirements of His law and if we break any one of God’s 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin.

And I agree with that sentence. Do you agree with it?

"Under the law" or "in the law or surrounded by the law" is not my meaning it is the Greeks and English translations as shown earlier. As posted earlier we are only "Under the laws" condemnation if we stand before God guilty of breaking the law which is the context of Romans 3:8-23. The context of Romans 3:9-23 is that all the world is guilty before God of sin because we have all broken the law and under the laws condemnation. Therefore under the laws condemnation is the context and subject matter of the term "under the law" because all stand before God guilty of breaking the law therefore condemned of sin to die. So how does Galatians differ from Romans? Of course υπό translated as "under" is different and more precise to ἐν that can mean "under" or "in or surrounded by". Still context again demonstrates similar meaning. No one is "under the laws" condemnation if they have received Gods' forgiveness through faith in Christ. Here there is similarities between Romans 3 and Galatians 3. BTW earlier I was posting the definite article "to them" under "the law" perhaps I did not state it clearly enough. Glad we are in agreement.

Hope this is helpful
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,302
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,064.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why are you trying to apply different Greek words and contexts from Romans 3 to Galatians 3?
Actually I was thinking of Galatians 5.

I was applying your meaning to Galatians 5 because of what you said here
The Greek words used are indeed different but the meanings are similar.
In your view, then, what does the phrase "under the law" mean in Galatians 5? Is it that under the law means under the condemnation of the law?
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Actually I was thinking of Galatians 5.

I was applying your meaning to Galatians 5 because of what you said here

In your view, then, what does the phrase "under the law" mean in Galatians 5?
Have a re-read of the post above I only just finished edits. Sorry not well this morning. Galatians 3:23 "Under the law" ties in with Romans 3:19. Galatians 5:18 however links in nicely with Romans 3:19 and Galatians 3:23 that shows no one is under the laws condemnation of sin and death if they have received Gods' forgiveness through faith. Make sense?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RBPerry

Christian Baby Boomer
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2013
808
302
77
Northern California
✟134,232.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
I would like to interject something. One of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. In all these debates, no one has changed their positions or beliefs, nor are they likely to at this point. My question is, what is to be gained, I know with those close to me it has just caused more heated debates that go no where.
God bless you all.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,302
2,555
55
Northeast
✟242,064.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Have a re-read of the post above I only just finished edits. Sorry not well this morning. Galatians 3:23 "Under the law" ties in with Romans 3:19. Galatians 5:18 however links in nicely with Romans 3:19 and Galatians 3:23 that shows no one is under the laws condemnation of sin and death if they have received Gods' forgiveness through faith. Make sense?
I'm sorry to hear that you are not well. Do you want to postpone this discussion for a later date?

I agree with what you say that "...no one is under the laws condemnation of sin and death if they have received Gods' forgiveness through faith."

However, I don't think that "under the condemnation of the law" is the meaning of "under the law" in Galatians 5:18.

There are several reasons, but the easiest to talk about is that it doesn't fit with how Paul uses the same phrase in

Galatians 4:4
(Jesus was not born under the condemnation of the law, imo, because the condemnation of the law applies to those who break it.)

And Galatians 4:21
(Why would anyone want to be under the condemnation of the law? It doesn't make sense, imo.)
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I'm sorry to hear that you are not well. Do you want to postpone this discussion for a later date?

I agree with what you say that "...no one is under the laws condemnation of sin and death if they have received Gods' forgiveness through faith."

However, I don't think that "under the condemnation of the law" is the meaning of "under the law" in Galatians 5:18.

There are several reasons, but the easiest to talk about is that it doesn't fit with how Paul uses the same phrase in

Galatians 4:4
(Jesus was not born under the condemnation of the law, imo, because the condemnation of the law applies to those who break it.)

And Galatians 4:21
(Why would anyone want to be under the condemnation of the law? It doesn't make sense, imo.)

This is why context is important and shown from the first post in Romans 3:9-23. Different Greek words to "under", context and different subject matter to the phrases "under the law" are being used in these passages. Your comparing apples with oranges here. The context of Romans 3:9-23 is to the whole world standing guilty before God of sin and sins condemnation and death. Galatians 4 is not a comparison to Romans 3 although Galatians 3:23-25 and Galatians 5:18 have some links to those who receive God's forgiveness being set free from the law of sin and death *Romans 8:1-4 (law, sin, grace, forgiveness, walking in newness of life through Gods Spirit - Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 6:1-23). Does Galatians 4:4 say Jesus was made "under the law" or does it say he was made of a woman made under the law? That is also that Jesus as a man was also subject to God's law as all mankind are but was sinless (did not brake God's commandments). The next verse Galatians 4:5 says the reason Jesus was made of a woman born under the law is to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. That is redemption for the whole world who have sinned *Romans 3:19. It is not the law we are being redeemed from here of course as all the law does is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and the law according to Paul is Holy, just and good *Romans 7:12. It is the laws condemnation and guilt we are freed from that we receive for our sins and the wages of sin which is death *Romans 6:23 because all have sinned and fall short of God's glory and need God's grace and forgiveness for sin. Galatians 4:21 is written to those who think their righteousness is from the law when all the law does is give us a knowledge that we all have sinned and need God's Grace and forgiveness *Romans 3:9-23. (see also Romans 3:23 righteousness does not come from the law, it comes by faith in Christ).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,508
704
66
Michigan
✟494,339.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Truth is most of religious dogma is coined by religious people. Would you feel better if I said those who wish to live by the old and new covenant instead of legalistic.

It's not about making me feel better. Why would you say that? It's about Biblical Truth VS religious philosophy of men we are taught to beware of.

The term "Legalistic" is not found in the Bible. This is simply Truth. Why is it used? To portrait people who strive to "walk as Jesus walked" as they are instructed, those who strive against transgression of God's Laws, as instructed, as being deceived and deceivers.

The very reason you use it, or even know about it, is because you listened to other religious voices. This is simply a Fact, simply TRUTH as the term is not ever used in any translation of the Holy scriptures. The same religious voices taught you their version of the Old and New Covenant that became obsolete.

You somehow equate God's New Covenant, with some degree of elimination or abolishment of God's Laws, Statutes Judgments and Commandments.

Again, the only thing, according to the Holy Scriptures, that changed in the New Covenant, was the Priesthood. That is, the manner in which God's Laws are administered, and the manner in which transgression of HIS LAWS are atoned for.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

So here we are friend. Here is the Almighty God who inspired the Prophets to tell what HIS NEW COVENANT is. All we need is belief.

After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So if this is the New Covenant, then what was the Old Covenant? How were the people to hear God's Law before "After those days"? How were sin's forgiven before "After those days"? Well Biblical TRUTH clearly says these were Priesthood Duties given specifically in the Levitical Priesthood or the "Order of Aaron".

So when Jesus became their High Priest, "After the Order of Melchizedek" after those days, the manner in which God's Law was administered changed. We no longer have to go find a Levite, or anyone, to read God's Word to us. We all have the Oracles of God in our own homes, in our eyes, and in our mind just as God promised. We no longer have to take an animal to the Levite Priest for atonement, God Himself, provided the Lamb of God for our atonement. All we need is belief.

The bible was written by men, added to by men and women. There are too many contradictions in the bible to say a literal interpretation is God inspired. For instance we know the heavens and earth wasn't created in six days, so literally from the first book of the bible we have problem with a literal interpretation.

Again, this is a religious philosophy of man. The Bible itself said it was written in Parables. That it was written as examples for us. That it is Spiritual, and that the things that happened to the people happened to them for our, that is, New Covenant Believers, admonition. Paul said, at least 14 years after Jesus ascended, that the LAW was written "For our, New Covenant Believers, sake's no doubt". Also;

2 Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So why would a man even want to take the Scriptures as a Literal history book, and not a God inspired Spiritual Parable, profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in Righteousness? Why would you look elsewhere for instruction, if Paul is teaching that belief and continuance in the Scriptures are all a man needs to become a man of God? Obviously the man that looks elsewhere for instruction in righteousness doesn't trust Paul.

There are many solid truths in the bible and great wisdom, and Jesus gave us examples of how He wants us to live. His commandments were simple and straight forward, no one needs to be a theologian to understand what He taught. Like Westley said, "Love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself and all the rest is just commentary."

LOL, You say no one needs a theologian to understand what Jesus taught, then you quote a theologian instead of Jesus. I would ask you, "How can we know how to Love God, and how to Love our neighbors"? Are we to listen to Wesley, Calvin, the Pope, the serpent? They all quote some of God's Words, and they all come in Christ's Name?

Did Jesus make up HIS Own Religion, did HE quote famous theologians of HIS Time? Or did HE exclusively quote from and give us His Father's Words written in the Law and Prophets?

There is a Truthful answer to these questions. We should examine Scriptures in faith/belief to find the Truth God placed in them.

What spirit would want us to regard the Holy Scriptures as less that trustworthy?

If everything we do is based on loving God, ourselves, and others then everything else seems to fall in place. Yes, we do need to love ourselves, because if we don't we can't love others. We do need to think for ourselves, but that doesn't mean to ignore the wisdom and knowledge of others.

I'm not sure how rejecting God's Laws and preaching that His Holy Scriptures are not trustworthy, is Loving God. Is God not smart enough to preserve HIS Truth in the Law and Prophets? Am I a Fool for trusting His Words?

My purpose here is simply to identify Biblical Truth. I already know most people are on a path to eternal life that ends in eternal destruction, because Jesus Himself said so, and I believe Him. I also know that God Created HIS Laws for "our (New Covenant Believers) sake's no doubt". I also know religious men will be deceived and become deceivers more and more as time goes on.

I know Jesus didn't intend for his people to create religious businesses, who create their own sabbaths, with images of God after the likeness of some handsome man, who reject the "Feasts of the Lord" and create their own Worldly accepted religious high days.

So if the Spirit of Christ didn't promote these religious traditions, what spirit did? The Mainstream Religions of Jesus' Time didn't want to hear HIS Answer to this question. There was a time when I didn't want to hear it either. But now I am grateful I didn't just ignore them, but studied to discern them as instructed. I am hoping for simply an honest examination of Scriptures in order to discern what Jesus, the Prophets and his Disciples warned against over and over. And that is the religious philosophies of men who come in Christ's Name.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.