JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

[Leaf473]

Great post here, LoveGodsWord. I think it's something we can really sink our teeth into!

So, diving in, section by section,

This is why context is important and shown from the first post in Romans 3:9-23. Different Greek words to "under", context and different subject matter to the phrases "under the law" are being used in these passages.

I agree that the words are different (see post 1656 ).

When the words, context, and subject are different, the meaning is often, but not necessarily, different.

Your comparing apples with oranges here.

I disagree. The three passages I refer to in the post you are responding to are Galatians 5:18, 4:4, and 4:21.

Those three passages all use the same phrase, ὑπὸ νόμον, under the law.

The context, of course, is different. Different enough to cause a different meaning to the phrase? I don't think it is.

The overall subject matter is the same. The particular subject matter of each passage is different. But again, different enough to cause a significantly different meaning? I don't think it is.

The context of Romans 3:9-23 is to the whole world standing guilty before God of sin and sins condemnation and death. Galatians 4 is not a comparison to Romans 3 although Galatians 3:23-25 and Galatians 5:18 have some links to those who receive God's forgiveness being set free from the law of sin and death *Romans 8:1-4 (law, sin, grace, forgiveness, walking in newness of life through Gods Spirit - Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 6:1-23). Does Galatians 4:4 say Jesus was made "under the law" or does it say he was made of a woman made under the law?

This is a great question. Jesus is born of a woman. Is it the woman who was born under the law, or Jesus?

Grammar was never my strong suit, in any language. But I think it's Jesus who was born under the law.

The Greek verb translated born there is masculine, if I understand these two links correctly. I think the masculine verb then would refer to Jesus, not Mary.

INTERLINEAR NEW TESTAMENT Galatians Chapter 4

GREEK INTERLINEAR VERB PARSING AND ABBREVIATIONS

That is also that Jesus as a man was also subject to God's law as all mankind are but was sinless (did not brake God's commandments). The next verse Galatians 4:5 says the reason Jesus was made of a woman born under the law is to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. That is redemption for the whole world who have sinned *Romans 3:19. It is not the law we are being redeemed from here of course as all the law does is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and the law according to Paul is Holy, just and good *Romans 7:12. It is the laws condemnation and guilt we are freed from that we receive for our sins and the wages of sin which is death *Romans 6:23 because all have sinned and fall short of God's glory and need God's grace and forgiveness for sin. Galatians 4:21 is written to those who think their righteousness is from the law when all the law does is give us a knowledge that we all have sinned and need God's Grace and forgiveness *Romans 3:9-23. (see also Romans 3:23 righteousness does not come from the law, it comes by faith in Christ).

I like your rendering "subject to God's law". Some Bible translations follow that, rendering ὑπὸ νόμον as "subject to the law".

So,
Galatians 4:4, 5
Jesus is born subject to the law and redeems those subject to the law.

Galatians 4:21 there are those who want to be subject to the law. Strange quirk of human nature, but it happens.

Galatians 5:18 if we are led by the Spirit, we are not subject to the law.

 

[RBPerry]

It's not about making me feel better. Why would you say that? It's about Biblical Truth VS religious philosophy of men we are taught to beware of.

The term "Legalistic" is not found in the Bible. This is simply Truth. Why is it used? To portrait people who strive to "walk as Jesus walked" as they are instructed, those who strive against transgression of God's Laws, as instructed, as being deceived and deceivers.

You should know what I meant by legalistic. I'm bowing out of these debates because they go nowhere and as I posted to another one of your responses, I have accomplished what I set out to do. This was as much a family argument as a forum debate.
I'm very comfortable with what I believe, I know what the Lord expects from me and I make ever effort to follow. Remember, we are all sinners saved by is loving grace.
I wish you all the very best and pray God blesses each of you. I'm done.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Great post here, LoveGodsWord. I think it's something we can really sink our teeth into! So, diving in, section by section,
I agree that the words are different (see post 1656 ) When the words, context, and subject are different, the meaning is often, but not necessarily, different. I disagree. The three passages I refer to in the post you are responding to are Galatians 5:18, 4:4, and 4:21. Those three passages all use the same phrase, ὑπὸ νόμον, under the law. The context, of course, is different. Different enough to cause a different meaning to the phrase? I don't think it is. The overall subject matter is the same. The particular subject matter of each passage is different. But again, different enough to cause a significantly different meaning? I don't think it is.

In the case of Romans 3:9-23, not only are different Greek word and meanings being used to Galatians as you have already agreed with but subject matter and application is also different to Galatians in my view. This is the problem with your claims in regards to your interpretation of Romans 3:19 which subject matter and context is showing that the whole world being "under the law" stands guilty before God of sin and no one is righteous before God with every mouth being stopped having no excuse for sin. So the application to εν τω νόμω "under the law" in Romans is different to the application and subject matter and word meanings to Galatians 4 which is υπό νόμον "subject the law".

I preferred "subject" to law as you picked up in my previous post in Galatians that some translations use as it is more inline with subject matter of Galatians. The context and subject matter of Galatians 4 differs from Romans 3 and is not about the whole world being "under the law" standing guilty before God of sin but as posted earlier about Jesus being made of a woman made subject to God's law. That is that Jesus as a man was also subject to God's law as all mankind are but was sinless (did not brake God's commandments).

The next verse Galatians 4:5 says the reason Jesus was made of a woman born under the law is to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. That is redemption for the whole world who have sinned *Romans 3:19. It is not the law we are being redeemed from here as all the law does is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and the law according to Paul is Holy, just and good *Romans 7:12.

It is the laws condemnation and guilt we are freed from that we receive for our sins and the wages of sin which is death *Romans 6:23 because all have sinned and fall short of God's glory and need God's grace and forgiveness for sin. As posted earlier εν τω νόμω "under the law" in Romans is different to the application, context and subject matter is obviously a different application to subject matter and word meanings to Galatians 4 which is υπό νόμον "subject the law" in my view. So you cannot really argue different phrases that use different Greek words, and different subject matter mean the same thing as they do not. This is why I posted the context and subject matter earlier as it is the subject matter and context that determines interpretation not phrases that use different Greek Words isolated from context and subject matter.

This is a great question. Jesus is born of a woman. Is it the woman who was born under the law, or Jesus? Grammar was never my strong suit, in any language. But I think it's Jesus who was born under the law. The Greek verb translated born there is masculine, if I understand these two links correctly. I think the masculine verb then would refer to Jesus, not Mary.
INTERLINEAR NEW TESTAMENT Galatians Chapter 4
GREEK INTERLINEAR VERB PARSING AND ABBREVIATIONS

Agreed thanks. This is important so there was no misunderstandings.

I like your rendering "subject to God's law". Some Bible translations follow that, rendering ὑπὸ νόμον as "subject to the law". So, Galatians 4:4, 5 Jesus is born subject to the law and redeems those subject to the law. Galatians 4:21 there are those who want to be subject to the law. Strange quirk of human nature, but it happens.

Well it is not my rendering. Some other bible translations use "subject to the law" which I think is a better translations of υπό which also fits the subject matter better then "under" though both translations are ok. Keep in mind again Galatians 4:21 subject matter is about those seeking their righteousness from being subject to the law. This disagrees with the scriptures all have sinned and if we all have sinned none are righteous or can be righteous through keeping the law because the wages of sin is death *Romans 6:23.

Galatians 5:18 if we are led by the Spirit, we are not subject to the law.

No one is subject to the laws penalty and guilt and wages (death) if they have received Gods' forgiveness for their sins. We must be careful here as the scripture does not say anywhere and do not teach that Gods' law is abolished or that it is no longer a requirement or the standard for christian living. That view would disagree with both the old and new testament (the whole bible) as it is written that faith, repentance, and God's forgiveness are required in order to first receive Gods Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 2:38; 1 John 1:9; 1 John 2:1-4; Proverbs 28:13 etc). No one according to the scriptures receive Gods' Spirit by not believing and following Gods' Word and knowingly breaking anyone of Gods' commandments *1 John 2:3-4 and neither do they know God *1 John 3:6-9. Paul also concludes that faith does not abolish God's law it establishes Gods' law in Romans 3:31. So to have an interpretation that faith abolishes Gods' law and we are led by the Spirit to break Gods' law is not biblical according to the scriptures.

Hope this is helpful

 

[Studyman]

You should know what I meant by legalistic. I'm bowing out of these debates because they go nowhere and as I posted to another one of your responses, I have accomplished what I set out to do. This was as much a family argument as a forum debate.
I'm very comfortable with what I believe, I know what the Lord expects from me and I make ever effort to follow. Remember, we are all sinners saved by is loving grace.
I wish you all the very best and pray God blesses each of you. I'm done.

That is certainly easier than having an honest, substantive discussion and examination of Scriptures.

But thanks for opportunity to share with you what God's Word has shown me.

 

[HIM]

I know what the Lord expects from me

No you don't.

Remember, we are all sinners saved by is loving grace.

Praise God.

 

[Leaf473]

In the case of Romans 3:9-23, not only are different Greek word and meanings being used to Galatians as you have already agreed with but subject matter and application is also different to Galatians in my view. This is the problem with your claims in regards to your interpretation of Romans 3:19 which subject matter and context is showing that the whole world being "under the law" stands guilty before God of sin and no one is righteous before God with every mouth being stopped having no excuse for sin.

I think there has been a miscommunication somewhere along the line. I was interested in discussing Galatians 5:18. I mentioned Romans 3:19 at the beginning only to say that its use of the phrase "under the law" is different from that phrase in Galatians and Corinthians.

So the application to εν τω νόμω "under the law" in Romans is different to the application and subject matter and word meanings to Galatians 4 which is υπό νόμον "subject the law".

Right, and also different from Galatians 5:18.

I preferred "subject" to law as you picked up in my previous post in Galatians that some translations use as it is more inline with subject matter of Galatians. The context and subject matter of Galatians 4 differs from Romans 3 and is not about the whole world being "under the law" standing guilty before God of sin but as posted earlier about Jesus being made of a woman made subject to God's law.

Right, and as we agree, it is Jesus who is subject to God's law, "ὑπὸ νόμον".

That is that Jesus as a man was also subject to God's law as all mankind are but was sinless (did not brake God's commandments).
The next verse Galatians 4:5 says the reason Jesus was made of a woman born under the law is to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. That is redemption for the whole world who have sinned *Romans 3:19. It is not the law we are being redeemed from here as all the law does is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and the law according to Paul is Holy, just and good *Romans 7:12.
It is the laws condemnation and guilt we are freed from that we receive for our sins and the wages of sin which is death *Romans 6:23 because all have sinned and fall short of God's glory and need God's grace and forgiveness for sin.

Right, however I see a possible situation coming up here.
Jesus came to redeem those who were subject to the law. It is also true that those who were subject to the law were subject to the condemnation of the law.
However, the phrase ὑπὸ νόμον, "subject to the law" does not mean "subject to the condemnation of the law".
This becomes critical when we get to Galatians 5:18, imo.

As posted earlier εν τω νόμω "under the law" in Romans is different to the application, context and subject matter is obviously a different application to subject matter and word meanings to Galatians 4 which is υπό νόμον "subject the law" in my view.

Yes, I agree.

So you cannot really argue different phrases that use different Greek words, and different subject matter mean the same thing as they do not.

Right, and I thought you had posted earlier that they were similar. Or maybe there was just a big miscommunication.

This is why I posted the context and subject matter earlier as it is the subject matter and context that determines interpretation not phrases that use different Greek Words isolated from context and subject matter.
Agreed thanks. This is important so there was no misunderstandings.
Well it is not my rendering. Some other bible translations use "subject to the law" which I think is a better translations of υπό which also fits the subject matter better then "under" though both translations are ok. Keep in mind again Galatians 4:21 subject matter is about those seeking their righteousness from being subject to the law.

Well, we may not fully agree there. I think it is referring to people who are already saved, and at the same time desire to be subject to the law.
Galatians 3 Foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you not to obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth among you as crucified? I just want to learn this from you. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now completed in the flesh?
(So I think these are people who are already saved, they have already begun in the spirit.)
Did you suffer so many things in vain, if it is indeed in vain? He therefore who supplies the Spirit to you,
(Indicating to me that they are Christians, they have been supplied with the Spirit.)
and works miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
********
Some of these Christian brothers, though, for whatever reason, desired to be subject to the law such that they could then produce the works of the law.
That's how I read it.

This disagrees with the scriptures all have sinned and if we all have sinned none are righteous or can be righteous through keeping the law because the wages of sin is death *Romans 6:23.

Yes, we agree there.

No one is subject to the laws penalty and guilt and wages (death) if they have received Gods' forgiveness for their sins.

Right!
But again, ὑπὸ νόμον, subject to the law, does not mean subject to the law's penalty.

We must be careful here as the scripture does not say anywhere and do not teach that Gods' law is abolished...

That's right! No part of the law is abolished.

...or that it is no longer a requirement or the standard for christian living.

Well, hang on there.
In 4:4, Jesus is born subject to the law, meaning that he had to do the requirements of the law. That was his standard of living, though he went well beyond the requirements of the law.
In Galatians 4:21, there were some who wanted to be subject to the law, they wanted to do the requirements of the law. But based on the context, this desire to be subject to the law was a bad idea.
When we come to Galatians 5:18, we read that if we are led by the spirit, we are not subject to the law.

That view would disagree with both the old and new testament (the whole bible) as it is written that faith, repentance, and God's forgiveness are required in order to first receive Gods Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 2:38; 1 John 1:9; 1 John 2:1-4; Proverbs 28:13 etc).

That's right! We begin with faith, repentance, and God's forgiveness, and we receive the Spirit.

No one according to the scriptures receive Gods' Spirit by not believing and following Gods' Word and knowingly breaking anyone of Gods' commandments *1 John 2:3-4 and neither do they know God *1 John 3:6-9.

Yes, we continue to agree!
If we are led by the Spirit, we are not subject to the law. How can this fit with what John says about commandments?
I think the way to resolve it is that in books attributed to John, he uses "commandment(s)" to describe a way of life. That way of life fits very well with Paul's description of the fruit of the spirit.

Paul also concludes that faith does not abolish God's law it establishes Gods' law in Romans 3:31.

A big amen there!

So to have an interpretation that faith abolishes Gods' law and we are led by the Spirit to break Gods' law is not biblical according to the scriptures.

Correct! And that's not my interpretation.

Hope this is helpful

Thanks, and you live in a part of the world where it is morning when it is night here in the Eastern USA? May you have a wonderful day!

 

[Leaf473]

You know, @LoveGodsWord , we both write these long posts, and then end up having miscommunications or something.

I suggest we both write very short posts, and go just one small subject at a time. If you like this idea, you're welcome to go first. If you want me to go first, I suggest we start with whether Galatians 5:18 means "subject to the law" or "subject to the law's penalty".

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I think there has been a miscommunication somewhere along the line. I was interested in discussing Galatians 5:18. I mentioned Romans 3:19 at the beginning only to say that its use of the phrase "under the law" is different from that phrase in Galatians and Corinthians.

Right, and also different from Galatians 5:18.

Right, and as we agree, it is Jesus who is subject to God's law, "ὑπὸ νόμον".

Right, however I see a possible situation coming up here.
Jesus came to redeem those who were subject to the law. It is also true that those who were subject to the law were subject to the condemnation of the law.
However, the phrase ὑπὸ νόμον, "subject to the law" does not mean "subject to the condemnation of the law".
This becomes critical when we get to Galatians 5:18, imo.

Yes, I agree.

Right, and I thought you had posted earlier that they were similar. Or maybe there was just a big miscommunication.

Yes, we agree there.

Right!
But again, ὑπὸ νόμον, subject to the law, does not mean subject to the law's penalty.

That's right! No part of the law is abolished.

Well, hang on there.
In 4:4, Jesus is born subject to the law, meaning that he had to do the requirements of the law. That was his standard of living, though he went well beyond the requirements of the law.
In Galatians 4:21, there were some who wanted to be subject to the law, they wanted to do the requirements of the law. But based on the context, this desire to be subject to the law was a bad idea.
When we come to Galatians 5:18, we read that if we are led by the spirit, we are not subject to the law.

That's right! We begin with faith, repentance, and God's forgiveness, and we receive the Spirit.

Yes, we continue to agree!
If we are led by the Spirit, we are not subject to the law. How can this fit with what John says about commandments?
I think the way to resolve it is that in books attributed to John, he uses "commandment(s)" to describe a way of life. That way of life fits very well with Paul's description of the fruit of the spirit.

A big amen there!

Correct! And that's not my interpretation.

Thanks, and you live in a part of the world where it is morning when it is night here in the Eastern USA? May you have a wonderful day!

Sorry Leaf been away for a bit. Had a bad toothache/headache so needed to go see the dentist. I have a root canal surgery next week to try and help here so it has been a little hard to concentrate of late. If we are mainly in agreement, then why not keep the Sabbath commandment as well as the others? No one receive Gods Spirit in disobedience. Gods' Word is very clear here *Acts of the Apostles 2:38 states that we only receive Gods' Spirit if we obey God's law. Faith, repentance from sin, confession of sins are all requirements to become a Christian and receive Gods' Spirit. As posted earlier Galatians 4:4 is in reference to Jesus being subject to Gods' law. Different subject matter and context to Romans 3:19.

LoveGodsWord said: Keep in mind again Galatians 4:21 subject matter is about those seeking their righteousness from being subject to the law.

Your response...

Well, we may not fully agree there. I think it is referring to people who are already saved, and at the same time desire to be subject to the law.Galatians 3 Foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you not to obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth among you as crucified? I just want to learn this from you. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now completed in the flesh?
(So I think these are people who are already saved, they have already begun in the spirit.) Did you suffer so many things in vain, if it is indeed in vain? He therefore who supplies the Spirit to you, (Indicating to me that they are Christians, they have been supplied with the Spirit.) and works miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
********
Some of these Christian brothers, though, for whatever reason, desired to be subject to the law such that they could then produce the works of the law.
That's how I read it.

Maybe you have a misunderstanding here. I never said these Galatians were not saved. I posted that they were seeking their righteousness through law keeping when all the law does according to the scriptures is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7. We do not look to the law for righteousness but to Christs forgiveness and through faith we are born again to walk in Gods' new covenant promise and receive His Spirit *Galatians 5:16. According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. We are all sinners in need of God's salvation and only saved 100% by the blood of Christ and what Jesus has done for us at Calvary. According to the scriptures however, the reasons why Gods grace is given to us is so we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of faith of one that is already been given 100% by the blood of Christ. Gods promise of salvation from sin is the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we are born again to walk in His Spirit *Galatians 5:16; 1 John 3:6-9 as we believe and follow his word *John 3:16; John 10:26-27. According to James if our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. This is God's new covenant promise of Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

 

[Leaf473]

Sorry Leaf been away for a bit. Had a bad toothache/headache so needed to go see the dentist. I have a root canal surgery next week to try and help here so it has been a little hard to concentrate of late. If we are mainly in agreement, then why not keep the Sabbath commandment as well as the others? No one receive Gods Spirit in disobedience. Gods' Word is very clear here *Acts of the Apostles 2:38 states that we only receive Gods' Spirit if we obey God's law. Faith, repentance from sin, confession of sins are all requirements to become a Christian and receive Gods' Spirit. As posted earlier Galatians 4:4 is in reference to Jesus being subject to Gods' law. Different subject matter and context to Romans 3:19.

Your response...

Maybe you have a misunderstanding here. I never said these Galatians were not saved. I posted that they were seeking their righteousness through law keeping when all the law does according to the scriptures is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7. We do not look to the law for righteousness but to Christs forgiveness and through faith we are born again to walk in Gods' new covenant promise and receive His Spirit *Galatians 5:16. According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. We are all sinners in need of God's salvation and only saved 100% by the blood of Christ and what Jesus has done for us at Calvary. According to the scriptures however, the reasons why Gods grace is given to us is so we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of faith of one that is already been given 100% by the blood of Christ. Gods promise of salvation from sin is the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we are born again to walk in His Spirit *Galatians 5:16; 1 John 3:6-9 as we believe and follow his word *John 3:16; John 10:26-27. According to James if our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. This is God's new covenant promise of Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

Hi again LoveGodsWord,

I'm sad to hear about your dental challenges.
Take all the time you want to respond.

There's lots of great points in your post there! I'm happy to answer each question you ask and address each issue you raise, but I can't do it all in one post.

My response #1686 confirmed for me that doing those kinds of long posts just isn't healthy for me physically or mentally. It's too much time bent over a cell phone putting the punctuation in the right place, etc.

But I'm happy to address one issue or question at a time. If you would like to proceed that way, which one would you like me to address first?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi again LoveGodsWord,

I'm sad to hear about your dental challenges.
Take all the time you want to respond.

There's lots of great points in your post there! I'm happy to answer each question you ask and address each issue you raise, but I can't do it all in one post.

My response #1686 confirmed for me that doing those kinds of long posts just isn't healthy for me physically or mentally. It's too much time bent over a cell phone putting the punctuation in the right place, etc.

But I'm happy to address one issue or question at a time. If you would like to proceed that way, which one would you like me to address first?

Hello Leaf, thanks for your kind thoughts about my tooth ache. You have not got access to a PC or laptop? I will always post what I believe God wants me to share from the scriptures in a public forum. I cannot make any apologies for loving Gods' Word (excuse the pun)

 

[Leaf473]

Hello Leaf, thanks for your kind thoughts about my tooth ache. You have not got access to a PC or laptop? I will always post what I believe God wants me to share from the scriptures in a public forum. I cannot make any apologies for loving Gods' Word (excuse the pun)

The short answer is that no, I don't really have access to a PC or laptop.

Of course you should always post what you feel God is leading you to post. Amen to not apologizing for loving God's word, that's for sure!

This comes to mind from Matthew "All the prophets and the law prophesied until John."

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This comes to mind from Matthew "All the prophets and the law prophesied until John."

How do you interpret Matthew 11:13?

 

[Leaf473]

How do you interpret Matthew 11:13?

I believe that it means that all of the prophets and all of the laws point to Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah. Then John came along and pointed to him physically.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe that it means that all of the prophets and all of the laws point to Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah. Then John came along and pointed to him physically.

This is my understanding as well. All the "shadow laws" of the old covenant for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, earthly Sanctuary laws, the laws for animal sacrifices and sin offerings), circumcision, Feast days all pointing to Jesus and Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; 36. This is what Hebrews chapters 7 to 10 are all talking about as well as Colossians 2 and Ephesians 2. All the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins and other laws point to the coming of the Messiah as Jesus and God's plan of salvation for all mankind in sending us His only begotten son that who so ever believes on His should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16). They also point to Jesus as our new high Priest ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:1-6 and the new covenant based on better promises. God's 10 commandments however have the same role they always had under the new covenant and that is to give us the knowledge of sin when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. So if God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken why do you not keep it?

 

[Leaf473]

This is my understanding as well. All the "shadow laws" of the old covenant for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, earthly Sanctuary laws, the laws for animal sacrifices and sin offerings), circumcision, Feast days all pointing to Jesus and Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; 36. This is what Hebrews chapters 7 to 10 are all talking about as well as Colossians 2 and Ephesians 2. All the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins and other laws point to the coming of the Messiah as Jesus and God's plan of salvation for all mankind in sending us His only begotten son that who so ever believes on His should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16). They also point to Jesus as our new high Priest ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:1-6 and the new covenant based on better promises. God's 10 commandments however have the same role they always had under the new covenant and that is to give us the knowledge of sin when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. So if God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken why do you not keep it?

I think when Jesus says, "All the prophets and the law prophesied until John" he means everything the prophets say and the entire law. That would include the ten commandments.

I do keep the fourth commandment, as I keep the entire law. I say this based on the idea that if a law is fulfilled it is necessarily kept.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I think when Jesus says, "All the prophets and the law prophesied until John" he means everything the prophets say and the entire law. That would include the ten commandments.

I do keep the fourth commandment, as I keep the entire law. I say this based on the idea that if a law is fulfilled it is necessarily kept.

Your post does not make any sense here Leaf or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are talking about here. Jesus did not fulfill the law so that we do not have to keep the law. He kept the law according to the scriptures as our example of how the law is to be kept and that is through love by the Spirit. No one keeps the law by breaking the law.

 

[Leaf473]

Your post does not make any sense here Leaf or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are talking about here. Jesus did not fulfill the law so that we do not have to keep the law. He kept the law according to the scriptures as our example of how the law is to be kept and that is through love by the Spirit. No one keeps the law by breaking the law.

Sounds like this would be a good time to talk about words like
Fulfill
End
Keep
Break

In your view which of those words apply to what you call the shadow laws?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sounds like this would be a good time to talk about words like
Fulfill
End
Keep
Break

In your view which of those words apply to what you call the shadow laws?

No problem. I am just asking for clarification. Are you claiming that Jesus fulfilled God's 10 commandments so that we do not have to as seems to be the teaching of many that disagree with the scriptures? If we are keeping God's 10 commandments from the heart though faith resulting in the fruit of obedience to God's law are we fulfilling God's law by keeping Gods' law or breaking God's law?

 

[Leaf473]

No problem. I am just asking for clarification. Are you claiming that Jesus fulfilled God's 10 commandments so that we do not have to as seems to be the teaching of many that disagree with the scriptures? If we are keeping God's 10 commandments from the heart though faith resulting in the fruit of obedience to God's law are we fulfilling God's law by keeping Gods' law or breaking God's law?

In Matthew, Jesus says that the entire law and the prophets is to treat others as you want to be treated. Jesus did that to the fullest extent possible, so no, we do not have to fulfill the entire law and the prophets again.

If we are keeping the ten commandments, we are not necessarily fulfilling the entire law. Given how Jesus expands on a couple of the commandments, I doubt that any human who was able to know right and wrong has actually kept them.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

In Matthew, Jesus says that the entire law and the prophets is to treat others as you want to be treated. Jesus did that to the fullest extent possible, so no, we do not have to fulfill the entire law and the prophets again.

If we are keeping the ten commandments, we are not necessarily fulfilling the entire law. Given how Jesus expands on a couple of the commandments, I doubt that any human who was able to know right and wrong has actually kept them.

Hello Leaf, my question was specifically to the 10 commandments in the new covenant. Not the "shadow laws" for remission of sins from the Levitical Priesthood of the old covenant laws that point to and are fulfilled and continued in Jesus to who they pointed to as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world (John 1:29; 36 Hebrews 10:10) and his role as out Great High Priest (Hebrews 7:1-25) in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not me based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. Jesus also discusses the 10 commandments in Matthew 5:19-22; 27-28 where he is applying God's law to our very thoughts and feelings (heart; see also Matthew 15:18-20) in fulfillment of the scriptures from Isaiah 42:21 where Jesus would come and magnify the law and make it honorable. You did not really clarify anything I asked you in my post you are responding to here and neither did you answer my questions. Did you wish to have another go?