Guns and Schools - What Changed?

[Larniavc]

I think one thing that is changing in our society, evinced by the calls of many from a certain group/worldview/political party (whatever) over the past 40 or 50 years or more - sans ANY substantial, credible justification - is the growing belief that an armed populace is somehow a threat to them.

The biggest threat to the armed population is the armed population. As evidenced by the significantly higher levels of gun deaths in America than normal Western nations.

 

[DerSchweik]

The biggest threat to the armed population is the armed population. As evidenced by the significantly higher levels of gun deaths in America than normal Western nations.

So what are you saying, to protect the armed population against... themselves, the unarmed population should disarm the armed population?

 

[Larniavc]

So what are you saying, to protect the armed population against... themselves, the unarmed population should disarm the armed population?

Not at all. It’s too late for America in terms of gun killings. The amount of guns in circulation, the laser focus of the arms industry in selling as many guns to Americans as possible, the NRA pushing owning guns as being synonymous with freedom, American’s seeming attitude that all the deaths are worth it to own guns.

So I’m not suggesting that anything can be done. America has done this to itself and it’s baffling that America was unable figure out how they have been duped by the arms industry or how important lives are compared to the ability to own guns.

 

[Pommer]

So what are you saying, to protect the armed population against... themselves, the unarmed population should disarm the armed population?

Maybe don’t have firearms be the number one symbol of freedom and things will sort themselves out?

 

[DerSchweik]

Not at all. It’s too late for America in terms of gun killings. The amount of guns in circulation, the laser focus of the arms industry in selling as many guns to Americans as possible, the NRA pushing owning guns as being synonymous with freedom, American’s seeming attitude that all the deaths are worth it to own guns.

So I’m not suggesting that anything can be done. America has done this to itself and it’s baffling that America was unable figure out how they have been duped by the arms industry or how important lives are compared to the ability to own guns.

You should maybe revisit a couple of my posts back, 117, 118 -- in that area. Stated beliefs about the threat of gun ownership to tyrannical leaders and the stated beliefs about the threat of no gun ownership to liberty.

I think your assessment of the issue is grossly skewed and not remotely indicative of the real issue(s) at play here.

Gun ownership is a GOOD thing - as long as those who own them are responsible themselves and in their use, as well as trained in their use. Laws governing the same are fine - to the point that they start infringing on the fundamental right.

The call to eliminate gun ownership is a very real, credible harbinger of tyranny - and as one quote went, those who cite "necessity" as their rationale for taking guns away from the citizenry are no less a cause for concern than those who do so in their leadership roles.

The violence we're seeing now is atypical to our nation, and imho very much a consequence of the deterioration of morality, human values, and the basic tenets on which this nation was founded. In short, we're under attack and have been under attack for over a century by influences, by a world view for which individual liberty and freedom are anathema. That... not guns, for pity's sake, is the source of all the violence here.

 

[DerSchweik]

Maybe don’t have firearms be the number one symbol of freedom and things will sort themselves out?

Well, I don't know that it IS the number one symbol of freedom.

It's just a hot button topic at the moment - and sadly any time there's a multiple shooting - gives a venue and guise for all those whose who feel threatened by a free (and armed) citizenry to voice their opposition to... a free (and armed) citizenry.

If you're getting beaten up by a bully, you don't stop to ponder and analyze all the personal and societal reasons they might have for beating you up. You protect yourself, then deal with the other stuff later.

 

[98cwitr]

2013 Article in the National Review

Guns in schools used to be accepted, common, safe. Kids used to bring their guns to schoool, walk the halls with them, fire them in basement firing ranges inside the schools.

Not so anymore.

What changed?

You can watch with very clear perspective: As we moved away from God toward social secularism, things got worse.

 

[RDKirk]

You can watch with very clear perspective: As we moved away from God toward social secularism, things got worse.

The US was never walking with God.

 

[98cwitr]

The US was never walking with God.

Then how did we get here? Proverbs 16:9

 

[RDKirk]

Then how did we get here? Proverbs 16:9

You could use that proverb in the same way for North Korea.

 

[Larniavc]

Gun ownership is a GOOD thing - as long as those who own them are responsible themselves and in their use, as well as trained in their use.

Which does not happen and people get killed. The issue here is weighing up the value of dead people against the ability to buy guns.

 

[keith99]

When did kids bring guns to school? Not any time in the last 50 years. That said I do agree with teaching children gun handling in school. If more knowledge is good in the arena of sex education then the same is true of gun education.

Well, yea!

The first half of the 20th century ended over 70 years ago.

 

[Belk]

Well, yea!

The first half of the 20th century ended over 70 years ago.

So....you're saying I'm old?

 

[keith99]

So....you're saying I'm old?

Only if there were shooting clubs at schools you went to!

BTW I wonder if there were ever any such clubs in URBAN schools. I knew some people just a little older than I was who made their pocket money shooting jackrabbits. In areas where shooting pests is valuable teaching gun safety is vital.

 

[DerSchweik]

Only if there were shooting clubs at schools you went to!

BTW I wonder if there were ever any such clubs in URBAN schools. I knew some people just a little older than I was who made their pocket money shooting jackrabbits. In areas where shooting pests is valuable teaching gun safety is vital.

I'd already noted how I ran into at least one in Denver, CO - no precise dates, but there were photos in the admin office of students on their indoor firing range, which I saw first hand during a job walk.

And from the article:

it was common for schools to have shooting clubs. Even in New York City, virtually every public high school had a shooting club up until 1969. It was common for high school students to take their guns with them to school on the subways in the morning and turn them over to their homeroom teacher or the gym coach so the heavy guns would simply be out of the way. After school, students would pick up their guns when it was time for practice.

 

[DerSchweik]

You can watch with very clear perspective: As we moved away from God toward social secularism, things got worse.

Agreed - though the more accurate term is simply marxism (or if one prefers, statism), either way, it amounts to social secularism, secular humanism, etc. One "positive" is that one of our political parties, long hiding behind more palatable monikers like "progressivism" and "liberalism" or "democratic socialism" or just plain "socialism" seems to have finally come out of the closet so-to-speak regarding who and what they really are.

...and if history has proven anything to us, when marxists/statists start calling for gun control, the citizenry needs to watch out. Of this, our founding fathers were very conscious and concerned.

 

[DerSchweik]

Which does not happen and people get killed. The issue here is weighing up the value of dead people against the ability to buy guns.

I disagree. I think the use of "mass" (>1) shootings being about the people that got killed is just a canard - the greater concern being the fact that guns were employed in the deed. In fact, you can read it here in this very thread - some people feel absolutely threatened by the mere fact that others simply possess guns.

Btw - what exactly is the "value of dead people?"

(don't answer that, just joking)

 

[Larniavc]

I think the use of "mass" (>1) shootings being about the people that got killed is just a canard

This is the same old story: begin to debate the meaning of the words used to deflect from the issue of people being killed by guns weekly.

What next: thirty posts on the definition of ‘assault rifle’? Please stick to the point.

In fact, you can read it here in this very thread - some people feel absolutely threatened by the mere fact that others simply possess guns.

More deflection. No one cares what you THINK other people feel.

Btw - what exactly is the "value of dead people?"

(don't answer that, just joking)

I’m glad you said it was a joke: it would not have been the first time a Christian on this site appeared puzzled by why people might care about people dying.

 

[Larniavc]

Agreed - though the more accurate term is simply marxism (or if one prefers, statism), either way, it amounts to social secularism, secular humanism, etc. One "positive" is that one of our political parties, long hiding behind more palatable monikers like "progressivism" and "liberalism" or "democratic socialism" or just plain "socialism" seems to have finally come out of the closet so-to-speak regarding who and what they really are.

...and if history has proven anything to us, when marxists/statists start calling for gun control, the citizenry needs to watch out. Of this, our founding fathers were very conscious and concerned.

You seem to be describing a state very similar to the UK. Last time I checked we had very few mass shootings.

Would that be so very bad?

 

[DerSchweik]

This is the same old story: begin to debate the meaning of the words used to deflect from the issue of people being killed by guns weekly.

Oh give us a break, you know perfectly well the more people killed in a shooting, the more interest it raises - frankly, in EVERYBODY's mind. The one or two person getting shot stories are just 30-word bits in the local paper that rarely make front page, and even less the local news.

My point was, calling them "mass" shootings is just a canard - they're more useful (and used more) by the anti-gun crowd as an opportunity for another call for gun control. Case in point (strike that, EVERY mass shooting is a case in point): Boulder, CO recently. The police were still inside the store, trying to figure out what exactly had happened, whether the shooter was still in the store or not, etc.; no one knew if, or how many people had been shot yet, their condition (save for several outside the store)... the story was still in infancy, BUT - not the call for gun control! No, the state media and members of a certain political party were on that like a flash, raising the call for gun controls almost immediately upon hearing the word "gun" and "people shot" in the story.

They don't care about who got shot, hurt, maimed, killed; they don't care about the family members, friends, coworkers - all they care about is the opportunity to point out the "necessity" for implementing more gun controls.

Fact is, barely a week goes by and these stories are no longer of interest to these people and their state media. They got their message of "necessity" across.

And, ironically, they're all back to being "loaded and cocked" for the next hint of >1 people getting shot.... and I suspect you know perfectly well I'm right.