Guns and Schools - What Changed?

[DerSchweik]

Well, it seemed that the point of your post (and the article) was that school children were safer when they were taking guns to school. The "data" you presented supported that point:

Children carrying guns - only 1.5 children dying by gun violence per year.

Evil liberals preventing kids from carrying guns - awful 2.8 children dying by gun violence per year.

Of course, this is a disengenuous way of presenting the data since:

Children carrying guns - only 1.5 children dying by gun violence per year ... out of 6 school children = 25% fatality rate per year.

Evil liberals preventing kids from carrying guns - awful 2.8 children dying by gun violence ... out of 280,000 children = 0.001% fatality rate per year.

It's simple math and is a better indicator of whether something may be, per capita, good or not.

No, the only reason I addressed stats at all was because the very first poster in the thread brought it up to support a rather snotty comment about school shootings being a popular American pastime.

List of school shootings in the United States (before 2000) - Wikipedia

School shootings have always been a popular pastime for Americans.

FWIW - the point of the OP is NOT gun control, America's love of guns, or even safety of children in school (the article was just an example to lay a foundation for the topic) - and it's definitely NOT about statistics of gun violence.

The point is - we went from a period of relative peace, if you will (I speak generally of course), when attitudes about guns were not remotely what they are today, when it was (FOR EXAMPLE) accepted that school children could actually bring their weapons to school (for whatever reasons), to the literal demonization of ALL guns, gun ownership, even gun owners and the prohibition of guns in schools - ALL OF WHICH occurred BEFORE the relative incidence of gun violence in schools increased nearly ten-fold as it has since. Why? What changed?

 

[MIDutch]

Why? What changed?

It certainly wasn't the ability of guns to kill people.

Only now they can kill a whole lot of people in a whole lot less time.

 

[Larniavc]

The only thing a tyrannical dictatorship fears more than an informed citizenry is an armed one.

Simply untrue. A heavily armed, ignorant population is perfect for a tyrannical dictatorship.

 

[MIDutch]

The point is - we went from a period of relative peace, if you will (I speak generally of course), when attitudes about guns were not remotely what they are today, [snip]

So those documentaries I watched growing up (I believe they were called Westerns) where people were having gun battles in the middle of the street at the drop of a hat were all fake?

Also, do you think Native Americans, slaves, African Americans, Chinese laborers, the original Mexican settlers of the US Southwest, etc. thought it was a period of "relative peace"?

 

[MIDutch]

Simply untrue. A heavily armed, ignorant population is perfect for a tyrannical dictatorship.

But it is a convenient lie when you're trying to make as much profit for the gun industry as possible.

 

[Larniavc]

But it is a convenient lie when you're trying to make as much profit for the gun industry as possible.

I agree. Americans have been convinced that they need guns to be free by Big Guns the same way they’ve been convinced they need opioids by Big Pharma the same way they have been convinced that Insurance based Health Care is freedom the same way they’ve been convinced they need an unregulated Free Market to make them rich.

And when they get angry about their lot being awful compared to other developed nations they kill each other with the guns they think the need.

From the eyes of the political and moneyed classes it’s a perfect situation; working as intended.

 

[MIDutch]

I agree. Americans have been convinced that they need guns to be free by Big Guns the same way they’ve been convinced they need opioids by Big Pharma the same way they have been convinced that Insurance based Health Care is freedom the same way they’ve been convinced they need an unregulated Free Market to make them rich.

And when they get angry about their lot being awful compared to other developed nations they kill each other with the guns they think the need.

From the eyes of the political and moneyed classes it’s a perfect situation; working as intended.

Who was it that said the easiest way to control a mob was to make it fear ... "something"?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

That's part of the greater picture of the problem.

Americans today, particularly young Americans, are far more desperate than in the past, far more desperate than even in my own past. There had always, for most of ever American generation, been a shared feeling that things are getting better, and things will get better. That had even been true for black people in America: The hope was there even if belied by the reality of their actual circumstances.

Desperation creates a continual undercurrent of fear and rage.

Agreed. I'm GenX and finally at 50 did I finally reach what my parents had in their 30s. However, I don't have a pension like they did, and struggling through the various recessions has not given me the resources to ever consider full retirement.

So yeah, I can see the desperation growing as we're all struggling not just to get ahead but to reach stability. That's one reason why I've become more liberal over the last 15 years, rather than conservative as most people do.

 

[DerSchweik]

Simply untrue. A heavily armed, ignorant population is perfect for a tyrannical dictatorship.

Ok... and you're basing this on...?

 

[DerSchweik]

Who was it that said the easiest way to control a mob was to make it fear ... "something"?

You mean like - guns?

 

[variant]

Interesting but not conclusive.

Feel free to show me why you seemed convinced to the contrary.

 

[DerSchweik]

So those documentaries I watched growing up (I believe they were called Westerns) where people were having gun battles in the middle of the street at the drop of a hat were all fake?

Are you kidding?! They were absolutely real!

Also, do you think Native Americans, slaves, African Americans, Chinese laborers, the original Mexican settlers of the US Southwest, etc. thought it was a period of "relative peace"?

Talk about out of context... Good grief, why don't you bring up WW1, or WW2, or the Korean War and ask if I thought those were periods of peace too?

 

[Larniavc]

Ok... and you're basing this on...?

The opposite of what you are basing your assertion on. My understanding of human psychology and sociology.

 

[DerSchweik]

The opposite of what you are basing your assertion on. My understanding of human psychology and sociology.

Ok, well... refreshers can sometimes be helpful:

“The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let’s not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country.”
– Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942

“One man with a gun can control 100 without one.” – Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

“If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves.”
– Joseph Stalin

“All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party.” – Mao Tze Tung – Mao Tze Tung, Nov 6 1938

“The measures adopted to restore public order are: First of all, the elimination of the so-called subversive elements. … They were elements of disorder and subversion. On the morrow of each conflict I gave the categorical order to confiscate the largest possible number of weapons of every sort and kind. This confiscation, which continues with the utmost energy, has given satisfactory results.”
– Benito Mussolini, address to the Italian Senate, 1931

 

[DerSchweik]

And fwiw (not to belabor this topic too much), after establishing gun control, the Soviet Union went on to exterminate over 60,000,000 of its [unarmed] citizens.
After establishing gun control, Communist China went on to exterminate over 135,000,000 of its [unarmed] citizens.
After establishing gun control, Nazi Germany went on to exterminate over 13,000,000 Jews and other [unarmed] "undesirables."
After establishing gun control in Cambodia, Pol Pot's Khymer Rouge exterminated over one third of it's [unarmed] population.
...fwiw.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

And fwiw (not to belabor this topic too much), after establishing gun control, the Soviet Union went on to exterminate over 60,000,000 of its [unarmed] citizens.
After establishing gun control, Communist China went on to exterminate over 135,000,000 of its [unarmed] citizens.
After establishing gun control, Nazi Germany went on to exterminate over 13,000,000 Jews and other [unarmed] "undesirables."
After establishing gun control in Cambodia, Pol Pot's Khymer Rouge exterminated over one third of it's [unarmed] population.
...fwiw.

So who determines who is a threat? You, me, BLM, 3%ers, etc? Is Kyle Rittenhouse an armed patriot or a threat to democracy?

 

[disciple Clint]

So who determines who is a threat? You, me, BLM, 3%ers, etc? Is Kyle Rittenhouse an armed patriot or a threat to democracy?

He is a young man who got involved in something that he should have stayed away from but who would have been killed if he had not defended himself.

 

[DerSchweik]

So who determines who is a threat? You, me, BLM, 3%ers, etc? Is Kyle Rittenhouse an armed patriot or a threat to democracy?

Well... WE do, ultimately.

As noted in the quotes, tyrants/dictators/despots determine who is a threat to them, and they take tyrannical/dictatorial/despotic action against that threat. In the examples I posted, to the tune of exterminating over 200,000,000 of their own [unarmed] citizens. Disarm, exterminate - that was their MO.

To direct this back to the point of the OP, I think one thing that is changing in our society, evinced by the calls of many from a certain group/worldview/political party (whatever) over the past 40 or 50 years or more - sans ANY substantial, credible justification - is the growing belief that an armed populace is somehow a threat to them. And what are they saying? Fundamentally, they believe the threat is ANYONE other than them being armed. That's not hyperbole - just read / listen to what they say.

Some here have argued the founding fathers' intent behind our individual right to own/possess firearms is no longer valid. I think such arguments naive at best, ignorant perhaps, but dangerous definitely, if you read what some of them have said:

“A free people ought to be armed.” – George Washington

“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government” – Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.” – Patrick Henry

“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms.” – James Madison, Federalist Paper #46

“The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops.” – Noah Webster, 1787​

And a quote I find particularly chilling, given what's been going on in our nation over the past 40 - 50 years:

“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”
– William Pitt, Nov. 18, 1783​

And, I think it fair to ask, "Who is, who has been asserting the necessity for disarming American citizens? Who is, who has been leading that charge and why?"

 

[Fantine]

TBT, the gun owners who say they don't want the government to overstep its bounds concern me most.
.
These words seem always to be spoken by people whose beliefs are 180 degrees from mine.

They believe Trump to be a populist hero. I believe he was a dangerous demagogue.

They believe the election was stolen. I believe it was the safest in history.

They believe in my police right or wrong. I believe we must work cooperatively with the police in our communities so that no one ever needs to fear a traffic stop because of their race.

They believe they can come uninvited to peaceful protests with paintball and pepper spray to help the police by causing chaos that can result in deaths. I believe they should mind their own business.

They believe the government is overstepping its bounds when it it enacts progressive policies for the common good.

They believe vaccines and masks infringe on their freedoms. I believe they protect all of us.

They fear good government is socialism. I fear authoritarian fascists.

I represent the majority of Americans who don't want gun owners to take to the streets to overturn our democracy.

(I know that this does not represent every gun owner but typifies the alt-right groups who are too numerous in my part if the country.)

 

[DerSchweik]

Q.E.D.?