Police are NOT hunting down black people

[muichimotsu]

We are talking equity here, you are familiar with equity right. It is funny to me how you want to argue the disproportionate point, if black people did not commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime and resist arrest with violence in a disproportionate amount they would not be contacted or killed by police in a disproportionate number. Why is that so hard to understand?

Equity is about proportionality in terms of that fairness, because it being disproportionate is where the unfairness comes in.

You just assume they commit the disproportionate amount of crime without understanding the underlying factors for why they'd do that; again, because you're likely white and not in their position so you have no leg to stand on in actually understanding how they are affected in contrast to you, seen as the norm

More victim blaming to downplay the problems as just "black people shouldn't be bad, be more like obedient white people"

 

[muichimotsu]

Oh good. All this talk about bad apples made it look different.



Well that does result in protesting.



Evidence?

Do you really think people don't immediately think "I should call the police" in terms of virtually ANY problem in America? It's a cultural norm that police are somehow the only thing keeping us from sliding into anarchy when it's authoritarian nonsense that cares more about obedience than understanding

 

[muichimotsu]

Well that’s probably due to the fact that blacks are more prone to violence than whites are which is why blacks are responsible for roughly half of the homicides committed each year in America despite them only making up for 12% of our population.

Yeah, 1) you're showing how little you care about nuance and instead just pin all the blame on the group you admit is disproportionately involved in crime AND killed by law enforcement relative to their population demographic and 2) also prefer to reduce the solution to statistics instead of considering systemic issues that contribute to it. But to you "systemic racism" doesn't exist because you don't think it's real, apparently

 

[muichimotsu]

No not at all, the safety law abiding citizens feel is because they know that all they have to do is cooperate with the police officer and he will have no reason to harm them. Police officers don’t just go around attacking people for no reason.

It's not guaranteed that there won't be problems, you're still assuming some kind of perfection here and that there aren't potentially unlawful practices that go on with law enforcement in one form or another.

It isn't the case for all law enforcement, but it also isn't just some made up thing, the thin blue line is practically common knowledge in some form or fashion, that police will be biased in outing bad cops, that people will almost always rule in FAVOR of a cop even when they've done some wrong because they don't think they could really be in the wrong (because "they're enforcing the law, they're the 'good guys'")

 

[rjs330]

Pretty sure I didn't say anything remotely to dismiss or downplay Civil Rights, because that is a change, but it's not perfecting the situation, because there are clearly still issues just on the level of racial relations. People still utilize the Confederate flag as a response to the idea of the South not being racist and claiming "heritage not hate" when the flag was used to literally encourage the normalcy of slavery and was a reaction to school integration in the 60s, saying segregation should still be the norm because it was "better"

I can ask my black friends, that doesn't mean they are on equal ground with me in every aspect or are necessarily treated fairly, especially in an area like the South where racist assumptions still abound and the KKK is still deep seated in its venomous and disgusting ideas that have continued to spurn the very race war people seem to want to accuse black people of starting when white people have been the ones that do it far more often under the guise of "helping", which is code for "keeping non whites in their place". Not all white people hold this idea, certainly not to the extent that is explicitly stated, but it doesn't mean white people are just tabula rasa in regards to social conditioning about such ideas in regards to race either.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that we will ever perfect the situation. You're talking han beings. When have we ever perfected relationships? That will never happen. We will always have racists, back white, Hispanic and aisian and always have Muslim Extremism.

The issues if race relations now rest firmly on the side of the left these days. The left has the constant drumbeat of how whites are racist and how society is racist and police are racist and the justice system is racist and all that is why we have poor black people and racial problems.

It's all nonsense.

We can agree that the KKK is venomous and racist to it's core. You won't get any disagreement from me there.

White people have been trying to "help" the black community for 60 years now. And guess what. It's not really helping. If you ask me the kind of help that people have been doing is actually "keeping blacks in their place". The left has been socially conditioned to believe the black community is in such a poor state they can't get out without loads of help from white people. Ho degrading! And then in turn they turn around and tell black people that they just can't get out of the situation because of all the racist white people, so now white people must pay. This encouraging a racial divide.

Not a nary if a mention of how Civil Rights have occurred and now blacks are free to choose their own destiny. How they can succeed and become doctors, lawyers, teachers, plumbers and policemen. How they can now pursue whatever they want, live wherever they want, buy whatever they want and eat wherever they want. Where is the left teaching the blacks on how to take advantage of all this opportunity and freedom? No instead they want to preach how they are really not free and are still bound by the all the racist policies of white people. Ginning up hatred. Ginning up self hatred of white people and hatred for white people.

It's so sad how the left these days is working so hard at dividing people and demeaning people. Demeaning white people and demeaning black people.

 

[rjs330]

Well that’s probably due to the fact that blacks are more prone to violence than whites are which is why blacks are responsible for roughly half of the homicides committed each year in America despite them only making up for 12% of our population.

It's even lower than that. Consider 6% is male which pretty much make up the population for the homicide rate.

 

[rjs330]

Equity is about proportionality in terms of that fairness, because it being disproportionate is where the unfairness comes in.

You just assume they commit the disproportionate amount of crime without understanding the underlying factors for why they'd do that; again, because you're likely white and not in their position so you have no leg to stand on in actually understanding how they are affected in contrast to you, seen as the norm

More victim blaming to downplay the problems as just "black people shouldn't be bad, be more like obedient white people"

So black criminals are victims now? I thought the victims were the people they harmed. It sounds like your are "criminal excusing".

 

[Ana the Ist]

Do you really think people don't immediately think "I should call the police" in terms of virtually ANY problem in America?

Yeah. I know it for a fact.

It's a cultural norm that police are somehow the only thing keeping us from sliding into anarchy when it's authoritarian nonsense that cares more about obedience than understanding

Ahhh...ok.

Seattle police significantly reduced their contact with the public since the riots....partly due to lack of confidence and partly due to losing about 1/5th of their police force.

Murder alone is up 62%...which I'm sure you probably wouldn't chalk up to the lack of policing, and I certainly wouldn't call it anarchy....

But it's worth pointing out that all those awful lynchings in the past basically stopped when people had both police+the telephone.

You ever heard the phrase "Perfect is the enemy of the good"?

 

[muichimotsu]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that we will ever perfect the situation. You're talking han beings. When have we ever perfected relationships? That will never happen. We will always have racists, back white, Hispanic and aisian and always have Muslim Extremism.

Pretty sure you're misreading, because not once did I ever say perfect, I said better, which is seeking improvement instead of just accepting the status quo and resigning ourselves to unnecessary loss of life that disproportionately affects non whites

The issues if race relations now rest firmly on the side of the left these days. The left has the constant drumbeat of how whites are racist and how society is racist and police are racist and the justice system is racist and all that is why we have poor black people and racial problems.

It's all nonsense.

If you actually took a step back and tried to understand what kind of racism they're pointing out, then you wouldn't find it nonsensical, because racism is not a monolithic singular manifestation, only in a perfect world you seem to think doesn't have any underlying prejudices or lingering problems that are systemic in nature, not a conscious choice for people to maintain, but nonetheless have negative effects because they are creating socioeconomic situations that favor white people over black people still.

We can agree that the KKK is venomous and racist to it's core. You won't get any disagreement from me there.

I'd certainly hope so...

White people have been trying to "help" the black community for 60 years now. And guess what. It's not really helping. If you ask me the kind of help that people have been doing is actually "keeping blacks in their place". The left has been socially conditioned to believe the black community is in such a poor state they can't get out without loads of help from white people. Ho degrading! And then in turn they turn around and tell black people that they just can't get out of the situation because of all the racist white people, so now white people must pay. This encouraging a racial divide.

Malarkey, you're playing victim and acting like you can solve all your own problems when that isn't how a systemic issue works, there has to be cooperation, you can't just turn this all onto others and deflect responsibility or act like white people are just "doing their best" and there can't be any improvements or problems of societal privilege that blind white people, especially the more affluent they are.

No, that's not remotely what is being done, you're strawmanning the bigotry of soft expectations when that is assuming that the solution is blacks being less lazy when that isn't the fundamental issue remotely.

The goal is improving the situation overall, this doesn't exclusively affect black people remotely, other non white people are also affected negatively by these systemic issues that treat whiteness as the norm and discourage the idea of "acting in a non white fashion", which breeds internalized racism as well

Not a nary if a mention of how Civil Rights have occurred and now blacks are free to choose their own destiny. How they can succeed and become doctors, lawyers, teachers, plumbers and policemen. How they can now pursue whatever they want, live wherever they want, buy whatever they want and eat wherever they want. Where is the left teaching the blacks on how to take advantage of all this opportunity and freedom? No instead they want to preach how they are really not free and are still bound by the all the racist policies of white people. Ginning up hatred. Ginning up self hatred of white people and hatred for white people.

It's so sad how the left these days is working so hard at dividing people and demeaning people. Demeaning white people and demeaning black people.

The two positions are not mutually exclusive, especially when there's actual nuance to the point that there are still barriers and struggles black people have, which is different than saying it is impossible for them to succeed, because of course there are successful black people, I never said otherwise, more strawmanning and misrepresentation of a position so you can seem more "rational"

Being free and being capable of advancing within a broken system are not the same thing, you're ignoring systemic issues because you seem to think that there isn't a problem that doesn't fall back to human will, which is voluntaryist nonsense.[/QUOTE]

 

[muichimotsu]

Yeah. I know it for a fact.



Ahhh...ok.

Seattle police significantly reduced their contact with the public since the riots....partly due to lack of confidence and partly due to losing about 1/5th of their police force.

Murder alone is up 62%...which I'm sure you probably wouldn't chalk up to the lack of policing, and I certainly wouldn't call it anarchy....

But it's worth pointing out that all those awful lynchings in the past basically stopped when people had both police+the telephone.

You ever heard the phrase "Perfect is the enemy of the good"?

Yeah, because statistics totally reflect that the sole problem was the one thing you seem to be a bootlicker for above all instead of considering that systemic issues are holistic by nature. Removing the police is not what defunding the police means; to suggest that and utilize cherrypicked evidence of one city is disingenuous, if not outright dishonest

And you as well seem to misunderstand: never have I advocated for perfect, that's you reading into what I say with uncharitable interpretations that are a polar opposite to whatever resignation and enabling you seem fine with, because "you're a good citizen"

 

[muichimotsu]

So black criminals are victims now? I thought the victims were the people they harmed. It sounds like your are "criminal excusing".

They are victims in that the system overall is disproportionately pushing them into this, that doesn't mean their crime is excusable. You're still trying to solve a problem by cutting off branches instead of addressing the root, which is not some mere culture situation, as if all black people are just unconsciously going to want to be thugs or the like (and as if white people don't also seek that imitation for similar reasons of a lack of support structure, which isn't a cultural problem, it's a societal one)

Criminals are victims insofar as the system does not actually help them rehabilitate, but merely punishes them and expects them to get in line when they're going to be disenfranchised afterwards and thus fall BACK into the prison system that is designed to keep prisoners there so they can make money off them. It's like you haven't even considered that the grand morals you speak of are not manifest in America's system remotely the more we've allowed corporate interests to burrow their way in: for profit prisons are just one manifestation

 

[muichimotsu]

It's even lower than that. Consider 6% is male which pretty much make up the population for the homicide rate.

And your solution is what? Treating them like they need to be "civilized" when they were treated like subhumans for centuries and the progress doesn't just happen merely because laws are passed, people are still buying into stereotypes and misinformation. Cultural influences are going to be there, it isn't just going to go away because you throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater in thinking that the whole welfare system is somehow bad because you can make some causal link between that and black families being broken up, which is mere correlation, not a demonstrable link of cause and effect

Not to mention things like redlining and the like still have lingering problems with regards to black people not being equitable in their ability to generate and accumulate wealth relative to white people (who never had that challenge to the same degree because whiteness was the norm from the start)

 

[disciple Clint]

Equity is about proportionality in terms of that fairness, because it being disproportionate is where the unfairness comes in.

You just assume they commit the disproportionate amount of crime without understanding the underlying factors for why they'd do that; again, because you're likely white and not in their position so you have no leg to stand on in actually understanding how they are affected in contrast to you, seen as the norm

More victim blaming to downplay the problems as just "black people shouldn't be bad, be more like obedient white people"

I do not assume that black people commit more violent crimes it is a fact that has been pointed out to you in numerous posts by several different posters. Attempting to justify why black people commit a disproportionate amount of crime is not relevant to this discussion. Just for clarification, white people grow up in broken homes with little to eat and suffer all the same social problems associated with being poor. Interestingly people from all races grow up under unfortunate circumstances some of them become criminals and some of them become very, very successful. It is always the ones who do not try to use excuses who end up building themselves into a success. There is some wisdom to be gained in thinking about that.

 

[muichimotsu]

I do not assume that black people commit more violent crimes it is a fact that has been pointed out to you in numerous posts by several different posters. Attempting to justify why black people commit a disproportionate amount of crime is not relevant to this discussion. Just for clarification, white people grow up in broken homes with little to eat and suffer all the same social problems associated with being poor. Interestingly people from all races grow up under unfortunate circumstances some of them become criminals and some of them become very, very successful. It is always the ones who do not try to use excuses who end up building themselves into a success. There is some wisdom to be gained in thinking about that.

That fact is not so simple as to put all the blame on black people, as if they aren't trying to address it. When white people do nothing and downplay it, they are enabling the problem that they don't suffer from unless it inconveniences them

I'm considering a factor for the recidivism and crimes so that we can address it instead of just playing like we have no responsibility as white people, that it's all the responsibility of black people and we're just not involved at all.

Except white people aren't given the benefit of the doubt or treated like they're other in any fashion based on their race, any problems they have are a factor of a broken system in regards to crony capitalism and the like. Whereas black people can become successful, but they have to work far harder than a white person to get the same accomplishments, which is a historical fact in regards to so many accomplishments that white people can invoke in higher numbers because they were never marginalized as black people were for CENTURIES (as in hundreds of years, dozens of generations)

 

[disciple Clint]

That fact is not so simple as to put all the blame on black people, as if they aren't trying to address it. When white people do nothing and downplay it, they are enabling the problem that they don't suffer from unless it inconveniences them

I'm considering a factor for the recidivism and crimes so that we can address it instead of just playing like we have no responsibility as white people, that it's all the responsibility of black people and we're just not involved at all.

Except white people aren't given the benefit of the doubt or treated like they're other in any fashion based on their race, any problems they have are a factor of a broken system in regards to crony capitalism and the like. Whereas black people can become successful, but they have to work far harder than a white person to get the same accomplishments, which is a historical fact in regards to so many accomplishments that white people can invoke in higher numbers because they were never marginalized as black people were for CENTURIES (as in hundreds of years, dozens of generations)

All the blame for what we are or become is ours, each one of us can decide how much effort we are willing to put into life, our rewards are a result of our efforts, no one will ever achieve greatness while failing to take individual responsibility. In a nation that has had a black President and a Black VP it is hard to convincingly assert that our nation is systematically racist.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yeah, because statistics totally reflect that the sole problem was the one thing you seem to be a bootlicker

Awww....here I thought we could be cordial.

for above all instead of considering that systemic issues are holistic by nature. Removing the police is not what defunding the police means; to suggest that and utilize cherrypicked evidence of one city is disingenuous, if not outright dishonest

I could pull data from multiple cities if you want...Atlanta, Chicago, New York, and many many others.

And you as well seem to misunderstand: never have I advocated for perfect, that's you reading into what I say with uncharitable interpretations that are a polar opposite to whatever resignation and enabling you seem fine with, because "you're a good citizen"

I'm just asking you to consider....

10 years ago we were at record lows of violence and murder....dropping decade after decade.

At the same time, a pile of ignorant banal morons decided to start a 24_7_365 whiny campaign against the police because they had video of a tiny number of unfortunate incidents.

They haven't stopped and at this point....they've directly diminished the ability of the police to do their jobs effectively.

It's now costing lives. Arguably hundreds at this point. They're literally too dumb to see the damage they've done....or it's what they want.

But please, lend them your support. When the death toll reaches an unbearable level and people are begging for the police to return....I'll remind you that you the only real systemic problem is how easily the dumb accept easy vague answers to complex problems.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Whereas black people can become successful, but they have to work far harder than a white person to get the same accomplishments

Oh good....I actually used this as an example of what the racists say these days.

Black people work harder than white people.

Racism in its most basic form. You don't mind if I quote this on the other thread do you? It's literally what I said the racists say. I promise you won't be misrepresented.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yeah, 1) you're showing how little you care about nuance and instead just pin all the blame on the group you admit is disproportionately involved in crime AND killed by law enforcement relative to their population demographic and 2) also prefer to reduce the solution to statistics instead of considering systemic issues that contribute to it. But to you "systemic racism" doesn't exist because you don't think it's real, apparently

Your just ignoring the facts. Fact, blacks make up for roughly 12% of America’s population. Fact, blacks make up for roughly 50% of convicted murderers in our prisons. So how can you possibly insinuate that blacks are not more prone to violence than other races? And yes you are correct I don’t believe in systematic racism, it doesn’t exist. Systematic racism is what people have to resort to when they can’t provide any evidence of ACTUAL racism. Racism is dead in America thank God, or I should say that it was until the George Floyd incident. Now it’s completely blown out of proportion and the sad thing is that there’s nothing to suggest that George Floyd’s death was the result of racism to begin with. We have BLM and the media to thank for that propaganda stirring up the racial tension in America all over again. Are there racists in America? Yes, absolutely, but do they make up for a large percentage of America? No, absolutely not. Just going on how many people I know personally which is probably in the range of 500-600 easy I can think of maybe 3 or 4 people that I would say are racists which is less that 1%. I’d love to see some actual real examples of “systemic racism” because I believe it’s all just propaganda perpetrated by activists and the media.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's not guaranteed that there won't be problems, you're still assuming some kind of perfection here and that there aren't potentially unlawful practices that go on with law enforcement in one form or another.

It isn't the case for all law enforcement, but it also isn't just some made up thing, the thin blue line is practically common knowledge in some form or fashion, that police will be biased in outing bad cops, that people will almost always rule in FAVOR of a cop even when they've done some wrong because they don't think they could really be in the wrong (because "they're enforcing the law, they're the 'good guys'")

Yeah I did the numbers, remember? On average 1 in 50,000 police encounters result in a complaint. So no that’s not perfection but it’s a lot better than I expected. Who do you think is responsible for more fear in black communities, the police or the drug addicts and gang members? People have more fear of walking down the street at night of being shot or stabbed by the people who live there than the police. I know because I lived in 5th ward in Houston Tx for a year. Seeing a police officer brings a sigh of relief knowing that your at least safe as long as he’s in sight.

 

[rjs330]

Pretty sure you're misreading, because not once did I ever say perfect, I said better, which is seeking improvement instead of just accepting the status quo and resigning ourselves to unnecessary loss of life that disproportionately affects non whites



If you actually took a step back and tried to understand what kind of racism they're pointing out, then you wouldn't find it nonsensical, because racism is not a monolithic singular manifestation, only in a perfect world you seem to think doesn't have any underlying prejudices or lingering problems that are systemic in nature, not a conscious choice for people to maintain, but nonetheless have negative effects because they are creating socioeconomic situations that favor white people over black people still.



I'd certainly hope so...



Malarkey, you're playing victim and acting like you can solve all your own problems when that isn't how a systemic issue works, there has to be cooperation, you can't just turn this all onto others and deflect responsibility or act like white people are just "doing their best" and there can't be any improvements or problems of societal privilege that blind white people, especially the more affluent they are.

No, that's not remotely what is being done, you're strawmanning the bigotry of soft expectations when that is assuming that the solution is blacks being less lazy when that isn't the fundamental issue remotely.

The goal is improving the situation overall, this doesn't exclusively affect black people remotely, other non white people are also affected negatively by these systemic issues that treat whiteness as the norm and discourage the idea of "acting in a non white fashion", which breeds internalized racism as well


The two positions are not mutually exclusive, especially when there's actual nuance to the point that there are still barriers and struggles black people have, which is different than saying it is impossible for them to succeed, because of course there are successful black people, I never said otherwise, more strawmanning and misrepresentation of a position so you can seem more "rational"

Being free and being capable of advancing within a broken system are not the same thing, you're ignoring systemic issues because you seem to think that there isn't a problem that doesn't fall back to human will, which is voluntaryist nonsense.

[/QUOTE]

1. You said "perfecting the situation". That means perfect. You can't perfect the situation because your dealing with human beings. And you will never have perfecting relationships due to the the fact that we humans will always have extremist groups.

2. Better means building relationships, not tearing them down. Your sides rhetoric tears relationships apart and divides people. It does not build positive relationships. When you consistently blame and complain about a certain race you are divisive and encourage people to see others as their enemy who is holding them back.

3. You have no evidence for your claims. You have not presented any evidence of systemic racial problems that you claim exist.

4. You have not shown any evidence that white privilege actually exists and how it's systemic in holding black people back. This has been proven to you that it's not the case. Black people from other countries are very successful. That is proof that your systemic issue is false. If it were true these people would not be able to succeed. You have a false premise.

5. You on the left absolutely have soft expectations of the black community. Your entire premise is built on the facts that blacks cannot succeed without white peoples help or bringing white people down. You do and say nothing to encourage black people that they can succeed. Instead you consistently offer excuses why they can't. You offer the same ole mantra of accusing us as stating that blacks are lazy. If that was so, why did I mention that they can be anything they want? We encourage them to pursue their dreams. What you do is tell them they can't because of the white man. You consistently beat the leftist drum of blaming instead of encouraging. Laziness is not the problem. The problem is they are constantly told by the Democratic party and the left that they can't. It's not that they are lazy. They don't pursue because they are lazy. They don't pursue their opportunities because they are told they can't succeed by the left due to other people standing in their way.

6. You still have not shown a broken system.

What exactly IS preventing more blacks from joining the middle class?