Police are NOT hunting down black people

[disciple Clint]

You really think another group isn't promoting their own false narrative? It's only the group that's easy to demonize that's in the wrong, apparently.

Well your opinion is interesting but it does not provide any facts that challenge the accuracy of the information I posted. Do you have any evidence?

 

[muichimotsu]

The largest factor is our culture. African American culture, as it has developed since the mid 80s especially, is our own worst enemy. We're barraged with messages that gangbanging, sleeping around, having countless baby-mommas, serial welfare living, using drugs, sagging pants, glorifying women who act like [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]s and ratchets, and normalizing committing crime as the way of life we should be aspiring to. African American men that take responsibility and get jobs and go to college are looked down on as trying to 'fit in' with the white man's world.

Problem here is assuming this is solely advertised to black people rather than it being a subculture that has arguably influenced non black people. Glorifying such things and people actually participating is not a direct causative link, it's a fallacious correlation at best.

The problem with some black people conforming to the expectations of what is a majority white culture is that they can manifest internalized racism and treat other blacks as if they're lesser because they fit the stereotypes they have bought into about black people as if they must mean not being successful rather than incidentally having associations with it.

Do you really think there aren't rappers or such who have those kinds of behaviors related to the subculture that aren't encouraging good values? It's not an either/or situation, it's cherry picking the idea of a particular stereotype of what is presumed to be "black culture" and associating it to crime, which is well poisoning and creating the negative stereotype rather than considering WHY such criminal actions and such came about and are glorified, which isn't necessarily related to government action, but might also have an inadvertent response from government action, the systemic problems versus problems of someone just being "lazy"

It's not some 'sustemic aspects that affect black people in a similarly disproportionate factor'. It's african american culture itself (note that's why I clearly stated African American numerous times above, instead of 'black'). People who are also black, coming over from Africa with not a cent to their name, from environments and poverty far worse than most of us here could even dream of, are one of the most successful migrant groups when they come to the US. Somehow they manage to do leaps and bounds better than African-Ameicans, despite being black, having that same skin color. That indicates that there isn't any such 'systemic aspects' or 'systemic racism' that we can blame. It's time for the community to grow the heck up, take responsibility for our own issues, and work to make positive change instead of adopting this liberal victim complex to pass blame off on the white man for all of our own ills caused by our own culture.

African American culture is patently vague and also dishonestly assumes it's all negative rather than that what you're criticizing is a subculture, not the culture as a whole, a nuance that went entirely over your head

Correlation fallacy yet again: someone being black is not what people are saying is guaranteeing discrimination in America or a lack of success, it's that there are hoops to jump through that are unreasonable AND encourage internalized racism amongst black people.

No one is blaming the intentionality of white people for the problem, but their inaction and enabling of a system that favors them. You're confusing the systemic aspect that is brought up by thinking it must be some conscious thing, when not every socioeconomic issue is something planned by a sinister cabal, which has never been the argument in regards to systemic racism and other discrimination that favors rich white people
WOrking harder would certainly be a good start, but sure, changing the culture is very much needed.

Poverty can certainly be a factor in likelihood of crime. But it's not the be-all end-all. Other similarly poverty stricken populations of other races/cultures don't have remotely close to the amount of crime that African-Americans have.

Pretty sure I never said it was the be all end all, but it being addressed arguably would have proportional changes that we seem to not want to do because that'd mean taking away from corporate tax handouts and anything else that plays into an uber capitalist mindset where work is the only value people have, encouraging ableism, among other problems of American society that further marginalize non whites because they're just "being ungrateful and uppity". The amount of crime is going to vary depending on the type of crime: reducing it to violent crime ignores white people, I'd almost bet money, get away with their fair share of crime or commit it at higher levels than blacks because they're in a societally privileged status that lets them get away with it or even just pay it off in some cases (not all, some)

And there you go at the end trying to push it off on things that happened in the past. We did not have these problems after Jim Crow Ended, and we were MUCH closer to the effects of Jim Crow then, so if that was the issue, the problems would have been worse and clearer then. No, the issues have developed with the entrance of the welfare state to our communities, the destruction of the nuclear family as a result, and the development of the glorification of gangbanging/rap culture and lifestyle. That's been the worst poison to our community and culture. Not anything white people did decades ago. But what we have allowed to happen to our culture and community ourselves.

Pretty sure the problems existed in one form or another: just because black people didn't commit as many crimes as they do now in terms of statistics that are not always analyzed accurately to begin with (numbers don't lie, but that doesn't mean people always understand the methodological and other variables and instead fixate on one interpretation that fits a preconception, like blacks are just more criminal, which is repugnant to even suggest)

Welfare in itself is not the issue, you're demonizing the whole institution as if people benefitting from it means they must abuse it rather than it being a problem of familiarity breeding contempt. Intervention from the government is not always the solution, but acting like people can just fix a cultural norm that they don't even recognize is influencing them or that they may have biases that are encouraging discriminatory ideas against their own or another racial group is naive, because social conditioning is something we cannot fully avoid, we have to confront it introspectively as individuals to some degree.

 

[muichimotsu]

Well your opinion is interesting but it does not provide any facts that challenge the accuracy of the information I posted. Do you have any evidence?

Maybe put up on your own claim first, I see no remote substantiation of the idea that BLM is some anti American terrorist group as many right wing nutbars seem to say, even lumping them together with Antifa or Communists as if them all agreeing about something like racial equality means they must be in cahoots

 

[disciple Clint]

Maybe put up on your own claim first, I see no remote substantiation of the idea that BLM is some anti American terrorist group as many right wing nutbars seem to say, even lumping them together with Antifa or Communists as if them all agreeing about something like racial equality means they must be in cahoots

So the answer is not you do not have any facts, avoiding the facts will not change them, talking around them will not change them, trying to change the subject will not change them, only new facts that prove they are incorrect will change anything.

 

[rjs330]

The largest factor is our culture. African American culture, as it has developed since the mid 80s especially, is our own worst enemy. We're barraged with messages that gangbanging, sleeping around, having countless baby-mommas, serial welfare living, using drugs, sagging pants, glorifying women who act like [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]s and ratchets, and normalizing committing crime as the way of life we should be aspiring to. African American men that take responsibility and get jobs and go to college are looked down on as trying to 'fit in' with the white man's world.

It's not some 'sustemic aspects that affect black people in a similarly disproportionate factor'. It's african american culture itself (note that's why I clearly stated African American numerous times above, instead of 'black'). People who are also black, coming over from Africa with not a cent to their name, from environments and poverty far worse than most of us here could even dream of, are one of the most successful migrant groups when they come to the US. Somehow they manage to do leaps and bounds better than African-Ameicans, despite being black, having that same skin color. That indicates that there isn't any such 'systemic aspects' or 'systemic racism' that we can blame. It's time for the community to grow the heck up, take responsibility for our own issues, and work to make positive change instead of adopting this liberal victim complex to pass blame off on the white man for all of our own ills caused by our own culture.
WOrking harder would certainly be a good start, but sure, changing the culture is very much needed.


Poverty can certainly be a factor in likelihood of crime. But it's not the be-all end-all. Other similarly poverty stricken populations of other races/cultures don't have remotely close to the amount of crime that African-Americans have.

And there you go at the end trying to push it off on things that happened in the past. We did not have these problems after Jim Crow Ended, and we were MUCH closer to the effects of Jim Crow then, so if that was the issue, the problems would have been worse and clearer then. No, the issues have developed with the entrance of the welfare state to our communities, the destruction of the nuclear family as a result, and the development of the glorification of gangbanging/rap culture and lifestyle. That's been the worst poison to our community and culture. Not anything white people did decades ago. But what we have allowed to happen to our culture and community ourselves.

Wow, just wow. This is an AMAZING evaluation. I don't think it will matter much to the left, but I am awed by your honest and thoughtful assessment. You bring up points that are even more salient than anything I have thought of. Mainly the idea of blacks coming from other countries who are doing well and also the factors of crime in the african american community during Jim Crowe era and now.

I think we'd have to make a correlation between the african american culture of that time before the great society and what has happened to it since. Which has NOTHING to do with Jim Crow. Something has occurred in the african american community over the last 50 years since the Civil Rights era. What was it the caused a change in the culture?

 

[rjs330]

So the question is why are those communities committing more crime in the first place and why is it seemingly disproportionately black people? Assuming it must just be due to a factor of intentionality is ignoring other systemic aspects that affect black people in a similarly disproportionate factor.

People seem to keep going in the direction of, "Well, if black people just worked harder, they wouldn't be in such a bad situation," or the like, which is assuming all poverty and factors that can contribute to higher likelihood of committing crimes, is just a matter of work instead of a system that is stacked against their success in any meaningful way (redlining, Jim Crow, all manner of social stereotypes, the list goes on for how there isn't fair opportunity given, just the pretense of equality like in segregation)

You make SO MANY assumptions here. It just completely shows how biased you are. Basically that all the changes that have been made since the civil rights are meaningless.

It has nothing to do with "working harder". I know people who work very hard who still don't make a ton of money. Working hard does not guarantee wealth. No, it what you choose to do, is what matters. 50+% of the African American community have figured it out. Why don't you ask them what they did to get where they are? That would get you more than just a bunch of assumptions. We see that blacks are fully capable of at least reaching middle class. What was their path forward? What is it that allows blacks from other countries to become successful? Why didn't their skin color hold them back? Why not follow their pathway forward.?

 

[rjs330]

You really think another group isn't promoting their own false narrative? It's only the group that's easy to demonize that's in the wrong, apparently.

Do 70% of blacks approve of the way police are doing their job or not?

 

[rjs330]

Problem here is assuming this is solely advertised to black people rather than it being a subculture that has arguably influenced non black people. Glorifying such things and people actually participating is not a direct causative link, it's a fallacious correlation at best.

The problem with some black people conforming to the expectations of what is a majority white culture is that they can manifest internalized racism and treat other blacks as if they're lesser because they fit the stereotypes they have bought into about black people as if they must mean not being successful rather than incidentally having associations with it.

Do you really think there aren't rappers or such who have those kinds of behaviors related to the subculture that aren't encouraging good values? It's not an either/or situation, it's cherry picking the idea of a particular stereotype of what is presumed to be "black culture" and associating it to crime, which is well poisoning and creating the negative stereotype rather than considering WHY such criminal actions and such came about and are glorified, which isn't necessarily related to government action, but might also have an inadvertent response from government action, the systemic problems versus problems of someone just being "lazy"


African American culture is patently vague and also dishonestly assumes it's all negative rather than that what you're criticizing is a subculture, not the culture as a whole, a nuance that went entirely over your head

Correlation fallacy yet again: someone being black is not what people are saying is guaranteeing discrimination in America or a lack of success, it's that there are hoops to jump through that are unreasonable AND encourage internalized racism amongst black people.

No one is blaming the intentionality of white people for the problem, but their inaction and enabling of a system that favors them. You're confusing the systemic aspect that is brought up by thinking it must be some conscious thing, when not every socioeconomic issue is something planned by a sinister cabal, which has never been the argument in regards to systemic racism and other discrimination that favors rich white people
WOrking harder would certainly be a good start, but sure, changing the culture is very much needed.



Pretty sure I never said it was the be all end all, but it being addressed arguably would have proportional changes that we seem to not want to do because that'd mean taking away from corporate tax handouts and anything else that plays into an uber capitalist mindset where work is the only value people have, encouraging ableism, among other problems of American society that further marginalize non whites because they're just "being ungrateful and uppity". The amount of crime is going to vary depending on the type of crime: reducing it to violent crime ignores white people, I'd almost bet money, get away with their fair share of crime or commit it at higher levels than blacks because they're in a societally privileged status that lets them get away with it or even just pay it off in some cases (not all, some)



Pretty sure the problems existed in one form or another: just because black people didn't commit as many crimes as they do now in terms of statistics that are not always analyzed accurately to begin with (numbers don't lie, but that doesn't mean people always understand the methodological and other variables and instead fixate on one interpretation that fits a preconception, like blacks are just more criminal, which is repugnant to even suggest)

Welfare in itself is not the issue, you're demonizing the whole institution as if people benefitting from it means they must abuse it rather than it being a problem of familiarity breeding contempt. Intervention from the government is not always the solution, but acting like people can just fix a cultural norm that they don't even recognize is influencing them or that they may have biases that are encouraging discriminatory ideas against their own or another racial group is naive, because social conditioning is something we cannot fully avoid, we have to confront it introspectively as individuals to some degree.

Yet you do exactly the same thing to whites and cops. With even less evidence of current issues. Like racist white cops killing blacks. With little to know evidence of that or even a culture that encourages that behavior. Then you lump whites into the racist again labeling white culture which is against blacks without any real evidence that it currently exists and no evidence whatsoever that the culture encourages any kind of such behavior. And with out any evidence that it even exists.

Yet with the black culture we can point to specifics within the culture that encourages and glorifies such behavior as violence and drugs. Yet nothing in the white culture encourages racist behavior not anything within the police culture that encourages racism towards blacks and unjustified force. And we have results of a predominant culture in the back community and it is proven by actual data and actual evidence.

You ask why does the black community have these issues. You have been told by more than one african american why. And you just poo poo it away because it doesn't fit your world view. Perhaps it's time to take a hard look at your world view and see it's not accurate.

 

[KCfromNC]

Just a thought to share with you, I am not posting for your exclusive benefit. I frankly do not care what you think of my posts but if you want to continue being annoying that is your option dont expect me to participate.

Yeah, I could imagine that being asked to explain vague comments which read like veiled insults could be seen as annoying. But posts complaining about that annoyance sure feel like shooting the messenger

... and are also quite a long trip in a short time from posts confidently asserting that there is copious evidence for earlier claims. Quite telling, that.

 

[rjs330]

You really think another group isn't promoting their own false narrative? It's only the group that's easy to demonize that's in the wrong, apparently.

What would that group be and what is the false narrative. We've said what the false narrative on the left is. What the one you are talking about? And what group is selling it?

 

[Pommer]

Do 70% of blacks approve of the way police are doing their job or not?

The question ought to be, “Why is 70% approval by the black community regarding the police good enough”?

Maybe we should strive to get that approval even higher?
What would be wrong about that?

 

[muichimotsu]

Do 70% of blacks approve of the way police are doing their job or not?

Does the statistic reflect reality always? I seriously doubt it, since statistics are going to vary depending on sample size, etc.

 

[muichimotsu]

What would that group be and what is the false narrative. We've said what the false narrative on the left is. What the one you are talking about? And what group is selling it?

Right wing Blue Lives Matter reactionaries who don't want to deal with how they don't live in fear of police encounters that could lead to their deaths. Privileged white people that don't want to recognize a problem because it doesn't affect them in any meaningful way.

 

[muichimotsu]

Yet you do exactly the same thing to whites and cops. With even less evidence of current issues. Like racist white cops killing blacks. With little to know evidence of that or even a culture that encourages that behavior. Then you lump whites into the racist again labeling white culture which is against blacks without any real evidence that it currently exists and no evidence whatsoever that the culture encourages any kind of such behavior. And with out any evidence that it even exists.

Yet with the black culture we can point to specifics within the culture that encourages and glorifies such behavior as violence and drugs. Yet nothing in the white culture encourages racist behavior not anything within the police culture that encourages racism towards blacks and unjustified force. And we have results of a predominant culture in the back community and it is proven by actual data and actual evidence.

You ask why does the black community have these issues. You have been told by more than one african american why. And you just poo poo it away because it doesn't fit your world view. Perhaps it's time to take a hard look at your world view and see it's not accurate.

Nope, because I fully recognize that there are good cops, it doesn't mean that law enforcement as a whole is good, that's a compositional fallacy on its face.

I'm pointing out that this is a problem not only in the officers that do repugnant acts against minorities in a disproportionate fashion (some actually being held accountable by justice and not given qualified immunity that protects them from any real consequences beyond administrative leave or changing districts, among other likely solutions that give faux accountability), but those that try to make apologies by saying this is the exception rather than a trend that is reflected even in racial profiling itself, let alone a fundamental societal issue that police clearly aren't solving even if you put more money in their coffers to get military grade weapons.

Have you just...not learned that racism doesn't have to be explicit? You can have biases that color your interactions with people of another race and it manifests in a way that is more unconscious and has to be pointed out, this isn't someone that uses the n word or thinks blacks are mentally inferior, that's not even close to what racism as a term means, that's myopically reducing it to one manifestation to ignore others because that makes it "easier"

You haven't actually shown proof this is an exclusively black culture or that it is reasonably associated with the black race in the first place, that's part of the racist assumptions you've bought into that prefer to reduce the culture you criticize to a racial group instead of something broader, since that'd actually involve thinking critically and challenging preconceptions you appear to have about black culture, like it's mostly criminal in nature.

And you double down, acting like there's some monolithic white culture, when that's not what I argued in the first place at all, it's white supremacist cultural norms that create an idea that whiteness is the norm, not that there is some culture specific to white people, but a sociological norm that favors one racial group and marginalizes others as needing to "fit in"

Bring up this so called "evidence" before you act like it's been presented, because I'm pretty sure it hasn't

And don't play this idea like you aren't guilty of the same things you accuse me of, as if there's nothing that you could be mistaken about in these reductionist ideas about race and culture, as if they're remotely equal in nature rather than one emerging as a concept from the other and both being socially constructed

 

[muichimotsu]

So the answer is not you do not have any facts, avoiding the facts will not change them, talking around them will not change them, trying to change the subject will not change them, only new facts that prove they are incorrect will change anything.

What you think to be "facts" aren't necessarily so, especially with poor methodology and misunderstanding about statistics and the correlation/causation nuance that's gone entirely over your head.

You want to place ALL the blame on one group and dismiss ideas that they are victimized or marginalized, so you don't have to take any real responsibility, since you're very likely white yourself and thus insulated from really dealing with this in an empathetic fashion

 

[muichimotsu]

You make SO MANY assumptions here. It just completely shows how biased you are. Basically that all the changes that have been made since the civil rights are meaningless.

It has nothing to do with "working harder". I know people who work very hard who still don't make a ton of money. Working hard does not guarantee wealth. No, it what you choose to do, is what matters. 50+% of the African American community have figured it out. Why don't you ask them what they did to get where they are? That would get you more than just a bunch of assumptions. We see that blacks are fully capable of at least reaching middle class. What was their path forward? What is it that allows blacks from other countries to become successful? Why didn't their skin color hold them back? Why not follow their pathway forward.?

Pretty sure I didn't say anything remotely to dismiss or downplay Civil Rights, because that is a change, but it's not perfecting the situation, because there are clearly still issues just on the level of racial relations. People still utilize the Confederate flag as a response to the idea of the South not being racist and claiming "heritage not hate" when the flag was used to literally encourage the normalcy of slavery and was a reaction to school integration in the 60s, saying segregation should still be the norm because it was "better"

I can ask my black friends, that doesn't mean they are on equal ground with me in every aspect or are necessarily treated fairly, especially in an area like the South where racist assumptions still abound and the KKK is still deep seated in its venomous and disgusting ideas that have continued to spurn the very race war people seem to want to accuse black people of starting when white people have been the ones that do it far more often under the guise of "helping", which is code for "keeping non whites in their place". Not all white people hold this idea, certainly not to the extent that is explicitly stated, but it doesn't mean white people are just tabula rasa in regards to social conditioning about such ideas in regards to race either.

 

[disciple Clint]

What you think to be "facts" aren't necessarily so, especially with poor methodology and misunderstanding about statistics and the correlation/causation nuance that's gone entirely over your head.

You want to place ALL the blame on one group and dismiss ideas that they are victimized or marginalized, so you don't have to take any real responsibility, since you're very likely white yourself and thus insulated from really dealing with this in an empathetic fashion

Always with the opinions never with any facts to support them. Where is your evidence?

 

[muichimotsu]

Always with the opinions never with any facts to support them. Where is your evidence?

The better question is whether you'd even accept it as evidence. What specific claim do you want evidence for?

 

[disciple Clint]

The better question is whether you'd even accept it as evidence. What specific claim do you want evidence for?

Well, if you truly want to know look at the number of times I have asked you.

 

[rjs330]

Right wing Blue Lives Matter reactionaries who don't want to deal with how they don't live in fear of police encounters that could lead to their deaths. Privileged white people that don't want to recognize a problem because it doesn't affect them in any meaningful way.

You didn't answer my question. You talk about white people but don't actually provide any false narrative.