Police are NOT hunting down black people

[rjs330]

Are you at all concerned about the murder of black people in or major cities or is your concern limited to the 5 or less questionable events that involve the police. Looks very much like selective social conscience if 5 victims is more important than thousands.

Remember the narrative isn't about how much murder takes place. It's why the murder takes place. Which seems to be, the fact that the inner cities have poverty. So, being poor leads people to murder one another. Being poor creates bad character.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Exactly, how often do we have SWAT rolling down the street killing people. I wonder how many people are shot and killed every year by SWAT bursting into houses etc. I'm sure you're right. 99% of the people killed by police are killed by your front line patrol officer.

You do get a handful of those situations where someone is barricaded inside their home with a rifle....but they don't make any significant impact on the data.

The "militarization of police" is similar to the "police are not mental health experts" argument.

It's just throwing darts at answers with no real analysis of the problem.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Says the person who was trying to say that since there were only a few police murders of Black people, it's nothing for us to worry our pretty little heads over.

When all else fails, projection.
Ringo

Again, what's an acceptable number?

We have police getting shot at hundreds of times a year. They have a right to defend themselves. They aren't perfect so there's going to be mistakes.

If you don't have a number....give a percentage. If they're wrong 1% of time is it a problem? 5%? 10%?

Anyone can just whine and moan and virtue signal all day....but they should be able to say at what point the whining stops.

 

[disciple Clint]

Says the person who was trying to say that since there were only a few police murders of Black people, it's nothing for us to worry our pretty little heads over.

When all else fails, projection.
Ringo

Well of course we should just like we should be concerned about a leaky faucet during a regional flood.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Prone to violence entails a disposition which is the racist stereotype that one is trying to avoid in being fair minded and not assuming stuff about people based on race, especially with statistics as your only basis rather than considering socioeconomic situations that push people into these criminal acts

So I should assume these were nonviolent acts of murder? Your showing your bias by not accepting the facts. Basing a statement on facts is not bias it’s simply accepting the facts as they are. I only presented this evidence as an explanation of why police resort to more use of violence against blacks than other races. You think it’s a simple case of racism but your not taking into account the facts that are the cause of their use of violence.

 

[BNR32FAN]

George Floyd was not the first incident of that nature, it's just the first one that really had major coverage and was less ambiguous in nature. You really think there weren't incidents of police brutality, going as far back as Rodney King?

I never said that, but do you really think these acts of police brutality only happen to blacks? That seems to be your inclination here.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well of course we should just like we should be concerned about a leaky faucet during a regional flood.

Which is exactly why we have laws against this type of behavior. The main problem is when a police officer breaks the law so many people blame the police instead of the individual. It’s the exact same type of stereotyping that causes people to say that blacks are such criminals because they saw a black guy commit a crime. People need to realize they can’t rightly accuse or condemn an entire group based on the actions of individuals within that group especially if the individuals are acting in violation of that particular groups rules or code of conduct.

 

[SummerMadness]

Which is exactly why we have laws against this type of behavior. The main problem is when a police officer breaks the law so many people blame the police instead of the individual. It’s the exact same type of stereotyping that causes people to say that blacks are such criminals because they saw a black guy commit a crime. People need to realize they can’t rightly accuse or condemn an entire group based on the actions of individuals within that group especially if the individuals are acting in violation of that particular groups rules or code of conduct.

People do not blame every police officer for the actions of a few (though quite ironic when people keep pointing to "black crime" to justify racial profiling and other similar discriminatory practices). What people complain about is that when many police officers do wrong, nothing is done to punish the individual officer. Most police officers have witnessed a colleague using excessive force, but most do nothing about it. That's a big problem, but it's not surprising that many police officers do nothing about.

If you review the DOJ reports on police departments across the country, one ongoing issue is the lack of follow up or punishment for officer misconduct. Additionally, officers that speak up are targeted by their colleagues (i.e., snitches get stitches) or even fired. This engenders environment where police officers are truly above the law. Likewise, many judges read qualified immunity to mean that judicial precedence is required to act against an officer who has broken the law, which sets a high bar even it is clear that an officer has broken the law. In the end, you have a systemic issue that coupled with racial bias creates fear within communities because police oversight truly does not exist.

 

[muichimotsu]

You do get a handful of those situations where someone is barricaded inside their home with a rifle....but they don't make any significant impact on the data.

The "militarization of police" is similar to the "police are not mental health experts" argument.

It's just throwing darts at answers with no real analysis of the problem.

Yeah, because I'm sure you have a solution. Or do you just think there's no problems to be solved and just act like the status quo fixes everything? Please, enlighten us with your "superior analysis"

 

[muichimotsu]

So I should assume these were nonviolent acts of murder? Your showing your bias by not accepting the facts. Basing a statement on facts is not bias it’s simply accepting the facts as they are. I only presented this evidence as an explanation of why police resort to more use of violence against blacks than other races. You think it’s a simple case of racism but your not taking into account the facts that are the cause of their use of violence.

What was that you said in a later post about generalizing a group of people? Sounds a LOT like you're doing that with black people

Black people statistically committing more crime does not mean they are more prone to it, it merely means they're committing it more by the numbers. You ignoring the factors of socioeconomic issues (which I call malarkey on your 50% of black people being in middle class when that designation shrinks more and more as corporate interests get all the benefits and none of the sacrifices that the middle class has to take onto themselves so the country doesn't crash and burn) that lead to more incidences of crime, which disproportionately affect non whites (never said they didn't affect whites, they merely affect them in a different fashion because of societal norms that favor white people and give them a benefit of the doubt, that they're not "prone to violence" as people generalize black people as)

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yeah, because I'm sure you have a solution. Or do you just think there's no problems to be solved

Let's describe the problem. What do you think it is?

 

[muichimotsu]

Let's describe the problem. What do you think it is?

That there is disproportionate use of excessive force and/or violence as well as racial profiling by law enforcement against non white citizens. Simple enough?

 

[Ana the Ist]

That there is disproportionate use of excessive force and/or violence

Ok....what part of this suggests a pattern to you?

We see disparities between groups all the time, it's the norm. It would be odd if we didn't.

Here's the thing...I don't understand what you want to happen.

If a black suspect fights a cop....and the cop uses force against him...and a disparity emerges from this....

What would you like to happen?

1. Should cops stop responding to calls from black neighborhoods?

2. Should cops stop arresting black suspects?

3. Should they try really hard to find other suspects in other racial categories?

What is the problem you're describing when you say "disproportionately"? Are you saying they are doing something immoral or illegal because a disparity exists?

as well as racial profiling by law enforcement against non white citizens. Simple enough?

Now you're just describing a crime. There's laws against racial profiling.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That there is disproportionate use of excessive force and/or violence as well as racial profiling by law enforcement against non white citizens. Simple enough?

Here's a couple of tables from the Bureau For Justice Statistics...

Here's a breakdown of 911 calls by race. Imperfect, because race cannot always be assessed (see my earlier point) but it's what we have so let's take a look.

So there's definitely a disparity there....because while both white and black people are calling 911 around 8% of the time....black people are a much smaller population.

I'm guessing the high number of native Americans probably has more to do with easy racial categorization on reservations, but I'm admitting that's a guess.

Let's look at how they feel about those police responses.

Probably not the results you expected. I think we can safely say that black people are satisfied with their police response about 5-3% less than white people.

That's hardly what I would call a significant problem, it's minor. Do you think it's significant?

 

[rjs330]

Yeah, because I'm sure you have a solution. Or do you just think there's no problems to be solved and just act like the status quo fixes everything? Please, enlighten us with your "superior analysis"

Why won't you answer the question? The question is, what percentage is an acceptable number? What percentage would allow you to say the problem isn't that serious and within what would be expected when human beings are involved? C'mon man, give us something.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Why won't you answer the question? The question is, what percentage is an acceptable number? What percentage would allow you to say the problem isn't that serious and within what would be expected when human beings are involved? C'mon man, give us something.

Nobody ever answers this question.

I don't know if it's because they realize the ridiculous nature of their expectations.....

Or if they are somehow afraid they'll lose whatever approval they seek.

Or they honestly have no idea what they want.

 

[rjs330]

What was that you said in a later post about generalizing a group of people? Sounds a LOT like you're doing that with black people

Black people statistically committing more crime does not mean they are more prone to it, it merely means they're committing it more by the numbers. You ignoring the factors of socioeconomic issues (which I call malarkey on your 50% of black people being in middle class when that designation shrinks more and more as corporate interests get all the benefits and none of the sacrifices that the middle class has to take onto themselves so the country doesn't crash and burn) that lead to more incidences of crime, which disproportionately affect non whites (never said they didn't affect whites, they merely affect them in a different fashion because of societal norms that favor white people and give them a benefit of the doubt, that they're not "prone to violence" as people generalize black people as)

When someone refuses to believe facts it's denying reality. I think it's called denialism. Denialism is an irrational action when someone refuses to accept empirically verifiable reality.

Denying verifiable reality of about 50% of blacks being middle class is an interesting place to go.

 

[muichimotsu]

Ok....what part of this suggests a pattern to you?

We see disparities between groups all the time, it's the norm. It would be odd if we didn't.

Here's the thing...I don't understand what you want to happen.

If a black suspect fights a cop....and the cop uses force against him...and a disparity emerges from this....

What would you like to happen?

1. Should cops stop responding to calls from black neighborhoods?

2. Should cops stop arresting black suspects?

3. Should they try really hard to find other suspects in other racial categories?

What is the problem you're describing when you say "disproportionately"? Are you saying they are doing something immoral or illegal because a disparity exists?

The disparity is occurring because of socioeconomic situations that you apparently think don't need to be solved or are going to be solved by the "free market", which is hopelessly naive, since that's expecting some vague system to repair a system it's tied into, capitalistic greed that doesn't care about safety nets except where they can cut corners and save money

I never said a thing about just leaving black folks alone entirely, but there is still a trend in policing that regards blacks as somehow more violent and prone to crime, even if they don't have a basis for it beyond numbers that aren't going down even if there's more policing. The problem only might go away in some short term, but like a gaping wound with a band aid over it, nothing is fixed long term.

Police shouldn't have to be called to black neighborhoods in higher numbers in the first place, there shouldn't be more black suspects approached by cops in the first place (racial profiling may be illegal, doesn't mean it still doesn't happen via plausible deniability)

The disparity is that more black people are being treated like criminals and regarded like they need to be handled with violence when they are only 13% of the population, thus the disproportionate aspect. Disparity /=/ disproportionate representation. Inequality is a necessary evil in terms of some aspects of society, I never said otherwise, but acting like we shouldn't try to improve situations that create dispositions for criminal activity is turning a blind eye to a fundamental root of the issue that isn't going to be solved by police being used as a bludgeon to fix every problem that people don't recognize there are alternate solutions for (mental healthcare, healthcare access itself, etc)

 

[Ana the Ist]

The disparity is occurring because of socioeconomic situations that you apparently think don't need to be solved or are going to be solved by the "free market",

Socioeconomic situations?

So we should see the police using similarly high levels of force on white people in similar socioeconomic situations?

which is hopelessly naive, since that's expecting some vague system to repair a system it's tied into, capitalistic greed that doesn't care about safety nets except where they can cut corners and save money

LOL ok...

Up until mercantilism....99.9999999% of the world lived on less than a dollar a day.

Capitalism lifted more people from poverty than any other system.

Arguably, even the poorest black person alive today has access to all sorts of opportunities and benefits many of the richest white people in the past had none of.

I never said a thing about just leaving black folks alone entirely, but there is still a trend in policing that regards blacks as somehow more violent and prone to crime, even if they don't have a basis for it beyond numbers that aren't going down even if there's more policing.

So you believe police are racist?

Police shouldn't have to be called to black neighborhoods in higher numbers in the first place

Then tell black people to stop calling the police.

The disparity is that more black people are being treated like criminals and regarded like they need to be handled with violence when they are only 13% of the population, thus the disproportionate aspect. Disparity /=/ disproportionate representation. Inequality is a necessary evil in terms of some aspects of society, I never said otherwise, but acting like we shouldn't try to improve situations that create dispositions for criminal activity is turning a blind eye to a fundamental root of the issue that isn't going to be solved by police being used as a bludgeon to fix every problem that people don't recognize there are alternate solutions for (mental healthcare, healthcare access itself, etc)

What in the world are you talking about?

We can destroy gangs. We can force these young black men and their families to move away from other black people and try to destroy the associations these gangs are founded on.

That seems like an egregious destruction of their basic liberties and basically treats them like infants.

If you've got a suggestion though, I'm willing to listen.

 

[muichimotsu]

Socioeconomic situations?

So we should see the police using similarly high levels of force on white people in similar socioeconomic situations?

We don't, it's generally people that aren't white who are treated far more brutally, in no small part because of social conditioning of stereotypes that black people can endure more pain or the like. This isn't

LOL ok...

Up until mercantilism....99.9999999% of the world lived on less than a dollar a day.

Capitalism lifted more people from poverty than any other system.

Arguably, even the poorest black person alive today has access to all sorts of opportunities and benefits many of the richest white people in the past had none of.

Doesn't mean capitalism is without flaws, that's where you're oversimplifying to see capitalism as a panacea and savior fo the world rather than a start in the right direction of valuing people's work and not just them as cogs in a machine (except capitalism still can lead to reducing people to their labor and nothing else, which leads to the necessity of unions, etc)

Historical fallacy applies here, you're trying to say that things are better because we can find something worse in the past. Yeah, no spit Sherlock, we can also find that people didn't live as long 200 years ago, that doesn't make the American healthcare system better except in the fact that proportionally less people die at the age of 35. Doesn't mean people aren't still forced to ration their freaking insulin or otherwise are unable to afford bills from various procedures because insurance companies decide to gouge and otherwise cut costs by bringing up pre existing conditions or other red tape

So you believe police are racist?

I believe even good intentioned police are enabling a problem that is in no small part targeting racial groups, even if it isn't something done with the intentionality that the KKK did with targeting black families. They're a product of a broken system as much as black people who are either accused of crimes they didn't commit or are desperate enough to go into crime because of impoverishment that neither of us can hope to understand

Then tell black people to stop calling the police.

Not that simple, police's relevance to the public good is there, but it isn't black people that are calling the police on black people necessarily, you're neglecting that many tips would very likely be from "concerned" white citizens who don't think black people should be in their neighborhood, that they're "suspicious"

What in the world are you talking about?

We can destroy gangs. We can force these young black men and their families to move away from other black people and try to destroy the associations these gangs are founded on.

That seems like an egregious destruction of their basic liberties and basically treats them like infants.

If you've got a suggestion though, I'm willing to listen.

Destroying gangs just creates a power vacuum, you're not addressing the root problem, you're cutting off the branches and expecting the tree to not still die from whatever tree sickness

My suggestion is defunding the police in terms of the needless amount of involvement they're expected to have in every facet of public life and give funding that is desperately needed for other social goods. Oh, but you apparently think defund the police means I think we dont' need police at all? If so, then you're not only wrong, but thoroughly misinformed.