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For Skeptics Only: Would you ever accept the burden of proof for atheism?

Do atheists ever shoulder the burden of proof for atheism?


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    6

Paulomycin

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Taking a position 'I don't believe there is a God or gods' is very different to taking the position 'I believe there is no God or gods'.

I continually see this assertion, but never any explanation for it.

"I don't believe this desktop monitor before me exists."

"I believe there is no desktop monitor before me."

What's the difference?
 
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Gene2memE

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I continually see this assertion, but never any explanation for it.

"I don't believe this desktop monitor before me exists."

"I believe there is no desktop monitor before me."

What's the difference?

Faulty analogy.

A better analogy is:

"I dont believe your claim a desktop monitor exists"

"I believe there is no desktop monitor before you"

Atheism is a response to a claim. As such it doesn’t necessarily involve a counter claim.

If you flip a coin and claim it has come up heads, me saying "I don't believe your claim" does not require me to make a counter claim that the result is tails.

Similarly, if you say "I believe God exists" and I say "I dont have that belief" or "I don't believe your claim" or "I'm not convinced your belief is true", that doesn't entail me making a claim that your belief is untrue or that God does not or could not exist.

Hope that helps.
 
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Paulomycin

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A better analogy is:

Okay, let's go with that.

"I dont believe your claim a desktop monitor exists"

"I believe there is no desktop monitor before you."

What's the difference? You didn't explain any distinction between the two statements.

If you flip a coin and claim it has come up heads, me saying "I don't believe your claim" does not require me to make a counter claim that the result is tails.

It is when there's only two options. Who on earth made up this imaginary "rule" you people continually spout?

Hope that helps.

Creating more questions than you can answer is never helping.
 
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durangodawood

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Excuse me? Which phrase? I posted your entire quote.

Compare:

The original.

My response.
My mistake. It's still there in your OP: "atheism is a negative claim".

At any rate I moved on from wondering which claim you were referring to and posted my general thoughts on your question.
 
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Paulomycin

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My mistake. It's still there in your OP: "atheism is a negative claim".

At any rate I moved on from wondering which claim you were referring to and posted my general thoughts on your question.

If you don't believe atheism is a negative claim, then you're essentially denying the "a" in atheism.
 
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Gene2memE

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Okay, let's go with that.

"I dont believe your claim a desktop monitor exists"

"I believe there is no desktop monitor before you."

What's the difference? You didn't explain any distinction between the two statements.

In statement A, I am not making a positive claim. I am only making a statement of disbelief of your claim about the existence of a computer monitor.

In statement B, I am making a positive claim. I'm am making a statement that I believe there is no monitor, in direct contradiction to your claim.

With statement A, I remain open to the possibility of there actually being a computer monitor. I can still be convinced, either way, that a monitor exits or it does not exist.

With statement B, I am closed to the possibility of computer monitor existence. I not only assert that the statement "a computer monitor" exists if false, but I also make the claim there is no monitor.

Statement A is most analogous to 'soft/weak/negative' atheism (or 'agnostic atheism'). Statement B is most analogous to 'hard/strong/positive' atheism (or 'gnostic atheism').

It is when there's only two options.

Nope.

Even when dealing with a binary choice, its not an A or B option. Its an ['A' or 'Not-A'] and a ['B' or 'Not-B'] set of options. Each set deals with a separate horn of the binary choice dilemma - at least when responding to a claim.

For the coin toss, you could claim its heads. I can accept this claim (A), I can not accept this claim (Not-A), or I can reject it and make a counter claim of tails (B). The counter claim deals with a separate horn of the dilemma though.

Not accepting your claim of heads doesn't require me, in any way, to propose that the result of the coin toss is tails. There could be any number of reasons why I don't accept your claim. Until more or better information is available to me, there's no reason to move beyond non-acceptance.

There is a similarity with a criminal suit in a court of law. A person is either innocent or guilty of a crime. That's the binary. A or B.

However, when it comes to pleading and determining the outcome, the defendant doesn't plead 'guilty' or innocent' ('A' or 'B'), they plead 'guilty' or 'not guilty' ('A' or 'Not-A'). Similarly, the jury doesn't find 'guilty' or 'innocent', they find 'guilty' or 'not guilty' That's dealing with a single horn of the dilemma.



There's a key distinction to be made between the existence of a true binary and believing a claim concerning a binary (made by a third party).

The drivers license in my wallet is either expired or valid. If I claim that its valid, and you say you don't believe me, are you arguing that it is expired?

Who on earth made up this imaginary "rule" you people continually spout?

I didn't "spout" an imaginary rule. And who are "you people"?

If you're referring to the basic laws of logic, I think Aristotle is generally credited with formally writing them down (although I suspect others preceded him, we just don't have their writings).

Creating more questions than you can answer is never helping.

I'm just trying to explain atheism to the best of my understanding and ability. I don't see where I created questions that are unanswerable. You didn't explain the questions I was creating.
 
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Yttrium

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A better analogy is:

"I dont believe your claim a desktop monitor exists"

"I believe there is no desktop monitor before you"

Atheism is a response to a claim. As such it doesn’t necessarily involve a counter claim.

You know what you mean. I know what you mean. I think it's safe to say that most everyone around here with the notable exception of Paulomycin knows what you mean. It's a semantics issue. But I think it's an understandable one.

If someone asks me if I believe in the Theory of Evolution, I don't want to say "no, I don't believe in it". It just comes off the wrong way, even if it's technically correct. I accept the Theory of Evolution as by far the best explanation for the diversity of life on Earth. But, skeptic that I am, I'm not convinced.

One could say, for example, "I doubt that a desktop monitor exists." Possible, but unlikely. Or I could say "I doubt that the Theory of Evolution is false."

I note that someone who is Jewish could also be an atheist. No faith required. A Buddhist could be an atheist. Or a Shinto. But a Christian couldn't be an atheist, due to the faith requirement.

I voted "yes" in the poll because I assumed the OP was talking specifically about "hard" atheists. If an atheist makes a negative claim on the existence of gods, then that claim has a burden of proof, just like a positive claim from a theist.
 
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durangodawood

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If you don't believe atheism is a negative claim, then you're essentially denying the "a" in atheism.
Oh no I believe there's many different negative claims under the umbrella of atheism, including my own weak claim that I already mentioned.
 
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Paulomycin

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In statement A, I am not making a positive claim. I am only making a statement of disbelief of your claim about the existence of a computer monitor.

In statement B, I am making a positive claim. I'm am making a statement that I believe there is no monitor, in direct contradiction to your claim.

So in statement A, you're concealing your true intent. In other words, "I don't believe your claim of a god, but I won't tell you what I do believe."

With statement A, I remain open to the possibility of there actually being a computer monitor. I can still be convinced, either way, that a monitor exits or it does not exist.

No. It really doesn't indicate you're open to the possibility of anything. You're not actually communicating anything "open" or "closed," and I can only conclude what is inferred by omission.

You're essentially claiming the omission is always "open" in a positive sense. But it's really more ambiguous than that. It doesn't actually say it's open. It could be closed after all. Or, it could be a bait & switch.

Even when dealing with a binary choice, its not an A or B option. Its an ['A' or 'Not-A'] and a ['B' or 'Not-B'] set of options. Each set deals with a separate horn of the binary choice dilemma - at least when responding to a claim.

You're omitting the context. In the context of the binary choice of a coin flip, 'Not-A' = 'B' and "Not-B' = A.

Who taught you this crap? I want names. It's not Aristotle, and you know it. Why do you people always hide the external citations?

There is a similarity with a criminal suit in a court of law. A person is either innocent or guilty of a crime. That's the binary. A or B.

Straight-up wrong. It's presumed innocent until proven guilty. Even when found "not guilty," the court doesn't declare the suspect "innocent," but rather "not guilty." Since it's impossible to prove innocence.

If you're referring to the basic laws of logic, I think Aristotle is generally credited with formally writing them down (although I suspect others preceded him, we just don't have their writings).

Law of excluded middle. Binary options mean only two options. Not FOUR options.
 
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Paulomycin

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You know what you mean. I know what you mean. I think it's safe to say that most everyone around here with the notable exception of Paulomycin knows what you mean. It's a semantics issue. But I think it's an understandable one.

If someone asks me if I believe in the Theory of Evolution, I don't want to say "no, I don't believe in it". It just comes off the wrong way, even if it's technically correct. I accept the Theory of Evolution as by far the best explanation for the diversity of life on Earth. But, skeptic that I am, I'm not convinced.

Sorry, but that just looks so. . .non-committal. If you accept ToE as "by far the best explanation for the diversity of life on Earth," but you're still not convinced. It really looks like a flip-flop. A contradiction.

Why would you think I'd be the only one to notice this--outside of the "everyone around here" gang of consensus?
 
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Paulomycin

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Yeah. It's a totally unjustified assertion to make.

Why?

What evidence are you basing your non-acceptance of my claim on?

Do I have to prove a negative? In 12 years of debating online and in-public, I have never encountered an atheist who was willing to take on the burden of proof for a negative claim. Shockofgod on YouTube used to troll atheists on the daily with it. At least I took the atheist's word for it that he was trolling. Now you're implying that it's a legit question after all. Which is it?
 
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Yttrium

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Sorry, but that just looks so. . .non-committal. If you accept ToE as "by far the best explanation for the diversity of life on Earth," but you're still not convinced. It really looks like a flip-flop. A contradiction.

There's nothing wrong with being non-committal. One can see something as likely without being convinced. It's a normal human thing that just about everybody does with a wide variety of topics.

Why would you think I'd be the only one to notice this--outside of the "everyone around here" gang of consensus?

You have a very stubborn hangup on the semantics that I haven't seen from... anybody else here. Granted, I have seen a person on another forum with the same issue, and also a similar issue with the term "agnostic".
 
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Paulomycin

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There's nothing wrong with being non-committal. One can see something as likely without being convinced. It's a normal human thing that just about everybody does with a wide variety of topics.



You have a very stubborn hangup on the semantics that I haven't seen from... anybody else here. Granted, I have seen a person on another forum with the same issue, and also a similar issue with the term "agnostic".

"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." - Some classic rock atheist.
 
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Gene2memE

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Sorry, but that just looks so. . .non-committal. If you accept ToE as "by far the best explanation for the diversity of life on Earth," but you're still not convinced. It really looks like a flip-flop. A contradiction.

What's wrong with beliefs being provisional?

I'm also convinced that the ToE is the best explanation for the diversity of life on Earth.

I'm also open to having that belief changed. If a new theory is developed that provides a better explanation (i.e. has better explanatory and predictive power), I could change my belief.

Being convinced that something is the best now does not mean I cannot change my mind once new/better evidence becomes available.
 
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