The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

[Ceallaigh]

That rings true.

I should have mentioned that's something I've heard said. I'm not all that eloquent.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's been said the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.

In the case I mentioned, there is not even indifference. There is just plain ignorance. Most people don't have the vaguest idea who the Christian God is, or even that there is such a religion.

 

[Jipsah]

Thy speech doth betray thy ungodly attitude toward the Scriptures.

The familiar form pronouns give anything a nice sonorous and formal air, don't they?

You assume that everyone else believes only what they personally agree with in the word of God written and abrogates to themselves authority to deny what they do not personally agree with, as is your practice, so that anyone who defends the word of God simply because it is the word of God,
must be doing so because they personally like what is written.

The thing I really like is taking concepts that the Bible in no way hints at and using them as an overlay to interpret what the Bible actually says. The of the innate immortality of human beings is one of those. The nearesr thing I can see that seems to refer to it directly in Scripture is when the serpent tells Eve "thou shalt not surely die". Otherwise Scripture appears to be accept human mortality as axiomatic apart from the direct intervention of God.

Remarkable inability to get outside oneself, and remarkable ignorance regarding the nature of faith in the authority of the word of God written. That attitude doesn't seem arrogant to you?

I reckon there's enough ignorance and arrogance to go around in these discussions. How many people (naming no names, mind you)have elevated their own understandings of what they think Scripture "means" as equivalent to the Scripture itself. 'Tain't so.

 

[renniks]

Okay. . .I was thinking in terms of an experience of external constraint, vs.
an experience of choosing what one is inclined to do.

Maybe I misunderstood. God gives a new heart but the giving is conditional on our surrender.

 

[renniks]

The argument isn't that there's no hell, but rather what hell is.

Jesus just forget to mention that the rich man would eventually be pardoned? No hint of that in the story.

 

[renniks]

In a nutshell. That's why i have to reject Arminianism, because IMO any sentence that contains the phrase "God cannot" is absurd.

That's not an accurate representation of arminianism. It's not God cannot it's God will not.

 

[renniks]

No, that's not it.
Anyone who hates God hasn't met him yet. Take as long as you need.

I don't agree. Lots of people who genuinely loved God now hate him. That's what evil does.

 

[Ceallaigh]

In the case I mentioned, there is not even indifference. There is just plain ignorance. Most people don't have the vaguest idea who the Christian God is, or even that there is such a religion.

I find that unlikely. Christians are everywhere. Christian churches are everywhere. Christian missionaries have gone into the deepest darkest places of the world. The great commission has been carried out effectively. They may not know about God, but I'm sure they've heard about God. And heard about Jesus Christ in particular.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I don't agree. Lots of people who genuinely loved God now hate him. That's what evil does.

I don't think they actually knew him though. At least not in the way I know him.

 

[Ceallaigh]

That's not an accurate representation of arminianism. It's not God cannot it's God will not.

Like you've said in regard to Calvinism, what you're saying is God will not force anyone or cause anyone to become irresistibly compelled. Because that's not real love. It's not a real choice.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Jesus just forget to mention that the rich man would eventually be pardoned? No hint of that in the story.

As I understand it, there is if the rich man represents Israel. Not in the parable itself but in other scripture regarding Israel. Some have equated the gulf of separation in the story to this well known image:

 

[bbbbbbb]

I find that unlikely. Christians are everywhere. Christian churches are everywhere. Christian missionaries have gone into the deepest darkest places of the world. The great commission has been carried out effectively. They may not know about God, but I'm sure they've heard about God. And heard about Jesus Christ in particular.

Apparently you have never been to China. I have, multiple times. There are roughly 1.4 billion people in China today. The typical Chinese person knows nothing at all about the Christian God or Jesus Christ. in December the shops have lovely pictures of a fat white man with a big white beard and who is wearing red clothing. Wal-Mart, which is immensely popular in China, sells artificial Christmas trees and ornaments. Most Chinese adore all things American and some are now beginning to decorate their apartments at the end of the year, although the major holiday, by far, is the New Year which takes place in late January or early February, depending on the lunar calendar. If Chinese know anything about American religion they know that Americans have a god who is white, fat, with a big white beard and who wears red clothing.

There are church buildings in China and any Chinese person can enter them and even purchase a Bible if they choose to do so. However, most Chinese people do not choose to do so because they see no particular reason to do so. Christianity is a foreign religion like Buddhism, which, although fading in popularity, still has many adherents along with Taoism and Confucianism, neither of which are actually religions in the sense of having a theology about god(s).

Some educated Chinese will tell you that they know about Christianity. In their view, Christians worship a god called father, a woman (Mary) called mother, and their son, called Jesus Christ. They also worship many lesser gods called saints. This is similar to Buddhism which worships the Buddha and at least a thousand bodhisattvas. Christianity is not alien to various aspects of traditional Chinese religion and can be considered a Western form of ancestor worship.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Ad hominem. . .the last refuge of a failed argument.

Thy speech doth betray thy ungodly attitude toward the Scriptures.

This escaped my notice at first. You say ad hominem and then accuse your brother in Christ of being ungodly. And of course it's not really his attitude towards the scriptures that's the issue, it's his attitude towards the viewpoint that you're maintaining. Which still isn't what I would call ungodly. It seems like maybe your refuge is in equating your view as being equal to scripture, so that anyone who disagrees with you, is actually going against scripture. Anyone who goes against your view on this is going against God. Arguing with you is tantamount to blasphemy. Forgive me if I'm getting it wrong, but that's kinda what it sounds like to me.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Apparently you have never been to China. I have, multiple times. There are roughly 1.4 billion people in China today. The typical Chinese person knows nothing at all about the Christian God or Jesus Christ. in December the shops have lovely pictures of a fat white man with a big white beard and who is wearing red clothing. Wal-Mart, which is immensely popular in China, sells artificial Christmas trees and ornaments. Most Chinese adore all things American and some are now beginning to decorate their apartments at the end of the year, although the major holiday, by far, is the New Year which takes place in late January or early February, depending on the lunar calendar. If Chinese know anything about American religion they know that Americans have a god who is white, fat, with a big white beard and who wears red clothing.

There are church buildings in China and any Chinese person can enter them and even purchase a Bible if they choose to do so. However, most Chinese people do not choose to do so because they see no particular reason to do so. Christianity is a foreign religion like Buddhism, which, although fading in popularity, still has many adherents along with Taoism and Confucianism, neither of which are actually religions in the sense of having a theology about god(s).

Some educated Chinese will tell you that they know about Christianity. In their view, Christians worship a god called father, a woman (Mary) called mother, and their son, called Jesus Christ. They also worship many lesser gods called saints. This is similar to Buddhism which worships the Buddha and at least a thousand bodhisattvas. Christianity is not alien to various aspects of traditional Chinese religion and can be considered a Western form of ancestor worship.

Christianity is the fastest growing religion in China. But what you said is most people. While China is a lot of people, it's not most of the world's population. Overall I believe most of the world knows about Jesus

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Jesus just forget to mention that the rich man would eventually be pardoned? No hint of that in the story.

He lets John know on the prophetavision channel:

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell [Hades] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Rev 20:13)

So Jesus even jailbreaks Richie (shock, horror!). He's the one with the keys, after all. Plus his name is salvation, and his mission statement includes the freeing of the prisoners, as you may recall. Box ticked.

Good news!

 

[Ceallaigh]

Going by Acts of the Apostles 2:31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6 many say Jesus already emptied Hell.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't agree. Lots of people who genuinely loved God now hate him. That's what evil does.

We are all so fickle. That could easily reverse again.

 

[Saint Steven]

Strangely, the vast majority of humanity has no emotional response to God. God is an utterly foreign concept to them, at least God as revealed in the Bible. People no more hate God than they hate you or myself.

But I wonder if this is more of a current spiritual malady. There is so much conflicting information out there. Even within Christianity.

And we have become so self-sufficient. In the past humans have been more vulnerable to natural disasters, to which they may want to appease any deity they can imagine.

On the other hand our current attitude of self-sufficiency is often shattered by tragedy. You know things are REALLY bad when the news anchor says someone is in their prayers.

The old saying was: "There are no atheists in foxholes."

 

[Saint Steven]

Going by Acts of the Apostles 2:31, Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6 many say Jesus already emptied Hell.

Right. Why couldn't it happen again? It pretty well debunks the idea that the situation can't change in the afterlife.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Right. Why couldn't it happen again? It pretty well debunks the idea that the situation can't change in the afterlife.

The verse I've seen used to shoot down the idea of a second chance is: "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment," Hebrews 9:27. That's the only one I know of.