• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Is the fundamental gap between creationists and non-creationists...

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,006
✟69,550.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Refuting the ToE is every scientists dream, it would assure fame, money and a place in history.

That noone has speaks volumes about its robustness.



As if the institutions behind keeping evolution as the holy grail of science, would accept anything that refutes the theory?

The famous Carl Popperr got in trouble years ago, for making the mistake of truthfully admitting that evolution is not actual science, but is metaphysics, because it’s not falsifiable.

It’s too vague to be falsifiable - when they hit a dead end, as happens all the time, they just switch to another rabbit trail and continue on.
 
Upvote 0

Tinker Grey

Wanderer
Site Supporter
Feb 6, 2002
11,657
6,145
Erewhon
Visit site
✟1,110,215.00
Faith
Atheist
As if the institutions behind keeping evolution as the holy grail of science, would accept anything that refutes the theory?

The famous Carl Popperr got in trouble years ago, for making the mistake of truthfully admitting that evolution is not actual science, but is metaphysics, because it’s not falsifiable.

It’s too vague to be falsifiable - when they hit a dead end, as happens all the time, they just switch to another rabbit trail and continue on.
*Karl Popper
 
Upvote 0

Tinker Grey

Wanderer
Site Supporter
Feb 6, 2002
11,657
6,145
Erewhon
Visit site
✟1,110,215.00
Faith
Atheist
As if the institutions behind keeping evolution as the holy grail of science, would accept anything that refutes the theory?

The famous Carl Popperr got in trouble years ago, for making the mistake of truthfully admitting that evolution is not actual science, but is metaphysics, because it’s not falsifiable.

It’s too vague to be falsifiable - when they hit a dead end, as happens all the time, they just switch to another rabbit trail and continue on.
Here's what "Karl Popper" actually thought about evolution: What Did Karl Popper Really Say About Evolution? | National Center for Science Education

Indeed, the recent vogue of historicism might be regarded as merely part of the vogue of evolutionism—a philosophy that owes its influence largely to the somewhat sensational clash between a brilliant scientific hypothesis concerning the history of the various species of animals and plants on earth, and an older metaphysical theory which, incidentally, happened to be part of an established religious belief.

What we call the evolutionary hypothesis is an explanation of a host of biological and paleontological observations—for instance, of certain similarities between various species and genera—by the assumption of common ancestry of related forms.

. . . I see in modern Darwinism the most successful explanation of the relevant facts. [Popper, 1957, p. 106; emphasis added]

There exists no law of evolution, only the historical fact that plants and animals change, or more precisely, that they have changed. [Popper, 1963b, p. 340; emphasis added]

I have always been extremely interested in the theory of evolution and very ready to accept evolution as a fact. [Popper, 1976, p. 167; emphasis added]

The Mendelian underpinning of modern Darwinism has been well tested and so has the theory of evolution which says that all terrestrial life has evolved from a few primitive unicellular organisms, possibly even from one single organism. [Popper, 1978, p. 344; emphasis added]
 
Upvote 0

Frank Robert

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2021
2,389
1,169
KW
✟145,443.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Ridiculous and untrue insult.

There are thousands of creationists with PhDs who are far from ignorant, and some have organizations that explain why macro evolution is untrue, that delve deeply into the science.
Such as Stephen Meyer PhD and his Creation Institute.
Such as Professor Gary Parker, who taught evolution in college, and wrote a pro evolution textbook, before eventually realizing macro evolution does not occur, and became a creationist - and he explains the science claims vs science facts very well.

Or Professor Dean Kenyon, famous evolution proponent, who wrote a very successful book on chemical evolution/abiogenesis titled Your Biochemical Destiny, before eventually realizing abiogenesis is impossible and becoming a creationist.

Or Professor of synthetic and organic chemistry Professor

None of these people or the thousands like them, are stupid OR ignorant,vand it’s ludicrous to claim they are.

Smug condescension and claims that we just don’t understand the science behind it or we’d accept it as fact, and we are ignorant and stupid, is false.

"A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism" (or "Dissent from Darwinism") was a statement issued in 2001 by the Discovery Institute, a conservative think tank based in Seattle, Washington, U.S. ... the statement expresses skepticism about the ability of random mutations and natural selection to account for the complexity of life, and encourages careful examination of the evidence for "Darwinism", a term intelligent design proponents use to refer to evolution.[1]

The statement was published in advertisements under an introduction which stated that its signatories dispute the assertion that Darwin's theory of evolution fully explains the complexity of living things, and dispute that "all known scientific evidence supports [Darwinian] evolution".[2][3] The Discovery Institute states that the list was first started to refute claims made by promoters of the PBS television series "Evolution" that "virtually every scientist in the world believes the theory to be true".[4] Further names of signatories have been added at intervals.[5][6] The list continues to be used in Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns in an attempt to discredit evolution and bolster claims that intelligent design is scientifically valid by claiming that evolution lacks broad scientific support.

Responses
After more than a decade of effort the Discovery Institute proudly announced in 2007 that it had got some 700 doctoral-level scientists and engineers to sign "A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism." Though the number may strike some observers as rather large, it represented less than 0.023 percent of the world's scientists. On the scientific front of the much ballyhooed "Evolution Wars", the Darwinists were winning handily. The ideological struggle between (methodological) naturalism and supernaturalism continued largely in the fantasies of the faithful and the hyperbole of the press.[38]

Expertise relevance

The listed affiliations and areas of expertise of the signatories have also been criticized,[1][12] with many signatories coming from wholly unrelated fields of academia, such as aviation and engineering, computer science and meteorology.[39]

In addition, the list was signed by only about 0.01% of scientists in the relevant fields. According to the National Science Foundation, there were approximately 955,300 biological scientists in the United States in 1999.[40] Only about 1/4 of the approximately 700 Darwin Dissenters in 2007 are biologists, according to Kenneth Chang of The New York Times.[12] Approximately 40% of the Darwin Dissenters are not identified as residing in the United States, so in 2007, there were about 105 US biologists among the Darwin Dissenters, representing about 0.01% of the total number of US biologists that existed in 1999.

Counter-petitions
Responding in the form of a humorous parody, the National Center for Science Education launched Project Steve, a list of scientists named "Steve", or its equivalent (such as "Stephanie" or "Esteban"), who had signed a pro-evolution statement.[54] As of 17 March 2017, the Steve-o-meter registered 1,412 Steves.[55]

After the Discovery Institute presented the petition as part of an amicus curiae brief in the Kitzmiller v. Dover intelligent design court case in October 2005, a counter-petition, A Scientific Support For Darwinism, was organized and gathered 7,733 signatures from scientists in four days.[57]

As of 6 July 2015, the Clergy Letter Project[58] has collected signatures of 13,008 American Christian clergy who "believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist." Over 500 Jewish clergy have signed a similar "Rabbi Letter".[59][60] The Clergy Letter Project has also circulated an "Imam Letter" affirming that "the timeless truths of the Qur'an may comfortably coexist with the discoveries of modern science."[61]


Dawkins is a prime example of your erroneous claim.
What part of my comment is untrue and how is it untrue. If I made a mistake I would like to know so I can correct it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: dlamberth
Upvote 0

VirOptimus

A nihilist who cares.
Aug 24, 2005
6,814
4,422
54
✟258,187.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
As if the institutions behind keeping evolution as the holy grail of science, would accept anything that refutes the theory?

The famous Carl Popperr got in trouble years ago, for making the mistake of truthfully admitting that evolution is not actual science, but is metaphysics, because it’s not falsifiable.

It’s too vague to be falsifiable - when they hit a dead end, as happens all the time, they just switch to another rabbit trail and continue on.
Holy grail of science?

You are truly ignorant about how science works.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hans Blaster
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Only for those biased and uninterested in the truth.
Were not talking about the "truth" here, but whether Douglas Axe is an evolutionist.

Calling Axe an evolutionist makes about as much sense as calling the Pope a Methodist--regardless of which religion is correct.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,006
✟69,550.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism" (or "Dissent from Darwinism") was a statement issued in 2001 by the Discovery Institute, a conservative think tank based in Seattle, Washington, U.S. ... the statement expresses skepticism about the ability of random mutations and natural selection to account for the complexity of life, and encourages careful examination of the evidence for "Darwinism", a term intelligent design proponents use to refer to evolution.[1]

The statement was published in advertisements under an introduction which stated that its signatories dispute the assertion that Darwin's theory of evolution fully explains the complexity of living things, and dispute that "all known scientific evidence supports [Darwinian] evolution".[2][3] The Discovery Institute states that the list was first started to refute claims made by promoters of the PBS television series "Evolution" that "virtually every scientist in the world believes the theory to be true".[4] Further names of signatories have been added at intervals.[5][6] The list continues to be used in Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns in an attempt to discredit evolution and bolster claims that intelligent design is scientifically valid by claiming that evolution lacks broad scientific support.

Responses
After more than a decade of effort the Discovery Institute proudly announced in 2007 that it had got some 700 doctoral-level scientists and engineers to sign "A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism." Though the number may strike some observers as rather large, it represented less than 0.023 percent of the world's scientists. On the scientific front of the much ballyhooed "Evolution Wars", the Darwinists were winning handily. The ideological struggle between (methodological) naturalism and supernaturalism continued largely in the fantasies of the faithful and the hyperbole of the press.[38]

Expertise relevance

The listed affiliations and areas of expertise of the signatories have also been criticized,[1][12] with many signatories coming from wholly unrelated fields of academia, such as aviation and engineering, computer science and meteorology.[39]

In addition, the list was signed by only about 0.01% of scientists in the relevant fields. According to the National Science Foundation, there were approximately 955,300 biological scientists in the United States in 1999.[40] Only about 1/4 of the approximately 700 Darwin Dissenters in 2007 are biologists, according to Kenneth Chang of The New York Times.[12] Approximately 40% of the Darwin Dissenters are not identified as residing in the United States, so in 2007, there were about 105 US biologists among the Darwin Dissenters, representing about 0.01% of the total number of US biologists that existed in 1999.

Counter-petitions
Responding in the form of a humorous parody, the National Center for Science Education launched Project Steve, a list of scientists named "Steve", or its equivalent (such as "Stephanie" or "Esteban"), who had signed a pro-evolution statement.[54] As of 17 March 2017, the Steve-o-meter registered 1,412 Steves.[55]

After the Discovery Institute presented the petition as part of an amicus curiae brief in the Kitzmiller v. Dover intelligent design court case in October 2005, a counter-petition, A Scientific Support For Darwinism, was organized and gathered 7,733 signatures from scientists in four days.[57]

As of 6 July 2015, the Clergy Letter Project[58] has collected signatures of 13,008 American Christian clergy who "believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist." Over 500 Jewish clergy have signed a similar "Rabbi Letter".[59][60] The Clergy Letter Project has also circulated an "Imam Letter" affirming that "the timeless truths of the Qur'an may comfortably coexist with the discoveries of modern science."[61]




What part of my comment is untrue and how is it untrue. If I made a mistake I would like to know so I can correct it.

There are scads of honest evolutionist who admit science is very biased towards atheism and naturalism, and “can’t allow a divine foot in the door”.

Dawkins bias and hostility towards creationists is very well evident.

Those claiming science and scientists don’t bring their world views and biases into their work, are naive or disingenuous.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,006
✟69,550.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No. The odds of a wining ticket is 1:1. A winner is selected for each lottery. You want a specific winner. Then how many times is the lottery drawn? Every hour? In which case you'll have a specific winner every 11 million years. Ridiculously low odds in the scheme of things. In the time we have for the process to run it'll happen about 500 times.

Odds of any one ticket winning is 1 in 16 million if 16 million tickets were sold so you can’t refute that.

To get the odds of winning for any person wanting to win to 50/50 would require buying 8 million of the 16 million tickets.

The odds of chemical evolution occurring are beyond impossible, and no amount of deep time can reverse the impossible.

Astrophysicist Dr. Hugh Ross explicitly shows why abiogenesis can’t occur:

Hugh Ross astrophysicist:


Is the Chemical Origin of Life (Abiogenesis) a Realistic Scenario?
 
Upvote 0

Ponderous Curmudgeon

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2021
1,477
944
66
Newfield
✟38,862.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
There are scads of honest evolutionist who admit science is very biased towards atheism and naturalism, and “can’t allow a divine foot in the door”.

Dawkins bias and hostility towards creationists is very well evident.

Those claiming science and scientists don’t bring their world views and biases into their work, are naive or disingenuous.
Considering that most of the worlds scientists are theists of one strain or another it would be more accurate to state that they don't bring their religious world views into their work to avoid bias in terms of the methodological nature of science.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Speedwell
Upvote 0

VirOptimus

A nihilist who cares.
Aug 24, 2005
6,814
4,422
54
✟258,187.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Odds of any one ticket winning is 1 in 16 million if 16 million tickets were sold so you can’t refute that.

To get the odds of winning for any person wanting to win to 50/50 would require buying 8 million of the 16 million tickets.

The odds of chemical evolution occurring are beyond impossible, and no amount of deep time can reverse the impossible.

Astrophysicist Dr. Hugh Ross explicitly shows why abiogenesis can’t occur:

Hugh Ross astrophysicist:


Is the Chemical Origin of Life (Abiogenesis) a Realistic Scenario?
Repeating already defeated arguments are inherintly dishonest.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,006
✟69,550.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Argument From Very Big Numbers is really a poor one.

Let's assume that 97 billion to 1 odds statistic is correct.

What it fails to consider is the available probability space.

Non-organic and organic chemicals are binding and reacting with each other all the time. At least trillions of times per day. Everywhere. All the time.

The probability space is immense. Literally incalculably large.

If organic chemicals were reacting/binding with each other at a rate of just one event per second, then an event with odds of 97 billion to 1 would occur every 3100 years. Roughly

10 events per second? 310 years.
1000 events per second. 31 years.
10000 events per second. 3.1 years.

Using that lottery example: suppose that instead of just buying one ticket, you bought thousands. And everyone else you knew bought thousands. And everyone they knew also bought thousands of tickets.

What are the odds of someone winning then?

That's the problem here with then numbers argument. Abiogenesis wasn't a singular event at a singular moment. It's not a single person buying a single lottery ticket. It's a billion people buying a billion lottery tickets every second of every day for hundreds of million of years.

There are some arguments that thanks to thermodynamics, abiogenesis is not only more probable than not, but it may be inevitable.

Except the reactions needed cannot occur, period, but those facts are ignored as if they don’t exist.

Homochirality is one example. Researchers just ignore that and do their experiments with purified and concentrated L handed amino acids.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Except the reactions needed cannot occur, period, but those facts are ignored as if they don’t exist.

Homochirality is one example. Researchers just ignore that and do their experiments with purified and concentrated L handed amino acids.
They don't "ignore" homochirality--they just haven't figured it out yet, though there are some interesting hypotheses.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hans Blaster
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,006
✟69,550.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Argument From Very Big Numbers is really a poor one.

Let's assume that 97 billion to 1 odds statistic is correct.

What it fails to consider is the available probability space.

Non-organic and organic chemicals are binding and reacting with each other all the time. At least trillions of times per day. Everywhere. All the time.

The probability space is immense. Literally incalculably large.

If organic chemicals were reacting/binding with each other at a rate of just one event per second, then an event with odds of 97 billion to 1 would occur every 3100 years. Roughly

10 events per second? 310 years.
1000 events per second. 31 years.
10000 events per second. 3.1 years.

Using that lottery example: suppose that instead of just buying one ticket, you bought thousands. And everyone else you knew bought thousands. And everyone they knew also bought thousands of tickets.

What are the odds of someone winning then?

That's the problem here with then numbers argument. Abiogenesis wasn't a singular event at a singular moment. It's not a single person buying a single lottery ticket. It's a billion people buying a billion lottery tickets every second of every day for hundreds of million of years.

There are some arguments that thanks to thermodynamics, abiogenesis is not only more probable than not, but it may be inevitable.

Except the reactions needed cannot occur, period, but those facts are ignored as if they don’t exist.

Homochirality is one example. Researchers just ignore that and do their experiments with purified and concentrated L handed amino acids.

Close but not quite. There are many lotteries that "roll-over". If no one wins the pot continually grows. What we find instead is that the odds of their being a winner for a lottery quickly approaches one. It is possible to sell more tickets than there are possible entries. Combinations are not exclusive. They are based either a random pick when one buys it or it could be numbers that a person has chosen. That is why sometimes there are multiple winners of one lottery.

Still the lottery is a good example to use because sooner or later there always is a winner.

That’s completely disingenuous.

The odds of anyone winning the jackpot, who buys a lottery ticket where 16 million tickets were sold, is 1 in 16 million, and you can’t spin that fact.

Rollovers are irrelevant, however when no one wins and they rollover the jackpot, the odds of anyone winning go down even more because many more millions of tickets are bought

If 30 million more tickets are sold, the jackpot goes up, but the odds of anyone winning go down.

With abiogenesis, the absurd claim is made that the impossible can occur if enough time, and enough chances occur.

Not so. Research has shown that the organic compounds and amino acids needed for abiogenesis do not occur in sufficient concentrations anywhere in the world.

Researchers have to use purified and concentrated compounds - abiogenesis cannot occur under any possible prebiotic conditions, anywhere.

Reactions that produce the all important sugar ribose, produce other sugars which block RNA and DNA formation.

There’s a long list of reasons why abiogenesis is impossible, at Astrophysicist Dr. Hugh Ross’ website:

Is the Chemical Origin of Life (Abiogenesis) a Realistic Scenario?
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Hood was a loser.
Mar 11, 2017
21,580
16,285
55
USA
✟409,680.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Astrophysicist Dr. Hugh Ross explicitly shows why abiogenesis can’t occur:

This sentence does not compute.

I know astrophysicists. I would not ask them to compute the odds of life arising from pre-biotic systems. They do not have the experience or training to do so. If they did, they might instead be called "astrobiologists".
 
Upvote 0

Frank Robert

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2021
2,389
1,169
KW
✟145,443.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
re are scads of honest evolutionist who admit science is very biased towards atheism and naturalism, and “can’t allow a divine foot in the door”. Science it not biased towards atheism but creationism is obviously biased against science.

Dawkins bias and hostility towards creationists is very well evident.
So? No one is claiming that there is hostility between atheists and creationists. As a frequent poster you should know that.

Those claiming science and scientists don’t bring their world views and biases into their work, are naive or disingenuous.
No one claiming differently. My point was that researchers are aware that their bias can creep in so take precautions to guard against them doing so. I know that from my own studies and experience. I am not a scientist but I have do have a graduate research degree.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Hood was a loser.
Mar 11, 2017
21,580
16,285
55
USA
✟409,680.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
There are scads of honest evolutionist who admit science is very biased towards atheism and naturalism, and “can’t allow a divine foot in the door”.

Science doesn't measure or test the "divine". Period.

It's like complaining your local Ford dealer won't fix your new Chevy.
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
That’s completely disingenuous.

The odds of anyone winning the jackpot, who buys a lottery ticket where 16 million tickets were sold, is 1 in 16 million, and you can’t spin that fact.

Nope, you do not know how lotteries work. Have you ever played Megamillions or Power Ball? They sometimes go months without winners. And then when there is a winner there are sometimes more than one. The odds are based upon how they choose the numbers. They are not based upon how many entries that there are.


Rollovers are irrelevant, however when no one wins and they rollover the jackpot, the odds of anyone winning go down even more because many more millions of tickets are bought

Oh my! Statistics fail. No, the odds remain the same.

If 30 million more tickets are sold, the jackpot goes up, but the odds of anyone winning go down.

With abiogenesis, the absurd claim is made that the impossible can occur if enough time, and enough chances occur.

Not so. Research has shown that the organic compounds and amino acids needed for abiogenesis do not occur in sufficient concentrations anywhere in the world.

Researchers have to use purified and concentrated compounds - abiogenesis cannot occur under any possible prebiotic conditions, anywhere.

Reactions that produce the all important sugar ribose, produce other sugars which block RNA and DNA formation.

There’s a long list of reasons why abiogenesis is impossible, at Astrophysicist Dr. Hugh Ross’ website:

Is the Chemical Origin of Life (Abiogenesis) a Realistic Scenario?

LOL!! Oh my, a lying joke site as a source of evidence. Please, we are not in elementary school here. If that is all that you can do no wonder that you are losing the argument.

Before we do anything else let's look at how lotteries work:

Mega Millions - Wikipedia

I see that I misspelled Mega Millions. That shows that I do not play it, but I understand how they work. From the article that I linked the odds of winning the jackpot are always the same, regardless of how many people enter:

"The probability and odds can be taken into a mathematical perspective: The probability of winning the jackpot(through October 27, 2017) was 1:(75C5) x (15); that is: 75 ways for the first white ball times 74 ways for the second times 73 for the third times 72 for the fourth times 71 for the last white ball divided by 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1, or 5!, and this number is then multiplied by 15 (15 possible numbers for the "Megaball"). Therefore, (75 x 74 x 73 x 72 x 71)/ (5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1) x 15 = 258,890,850, which means any combination of five white balls plus the Megaball has a 1:258,890,850 chance of winning the jackpot."

This is very very basic statistics. If you do not understand this how do you expect to understand the flawed arguments given to you by creationists?[/quote]
 
Upvote 0