Is the fundamental gap between creationists and non-creationists...

[driewerf]

So child abuse is cool with you?

No, and you can't deduce that from my post. Don't put words in my mouth. Especially not such horrific words.

 

[Speedwell]

So child abuse is cool with you?

Sin is defined as intentional disobedience to the known will of God. An atheist would not characterize a wrongdoing as "sin" because he does not believe in God, not because he denies the possibility of wrongdoing.

 

[Mr Laurier]

The blatantly, ridiculously, obvious point is it’s not faked.

No one counterfeited 100 dollar bills centuries before they existed, and no one faked a photographic negative on the shroud centuries before photography existed.

Nobody suggested that anybody faked a photographic negative. PERIOD

 

[Mr Laurier]

That is correct.

So why suggest otherwise?

A sci_en_tist named it, didn't he?

No. A scientist named it.

Are scientists in the habit of giving scientific names to things in the tabloids?

No. But tabloids ARE in the habit of spinning wild tales around scientific discoveries.
Farmer discovers tooth.
Scientist names species tooth came from.
Tabloid makes up wild story about species.

Notice that no scientist ever suggested that the tooth was from a human. That was all on the tabloid.
An anatomist suggested that it MAY have come from a primate of some sort. Based on preliminary examination. And then he caught his mistake, and realized it was not from a primate, and announced that he had made a mistake.
A TABLOID ran with the preliminary identification of "primate", and spun that into "primitive human". And then made up the details,with zero input from any scientists.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Which hinders science progress, due to the assumptions they make, such as assuming various parts of the human body to be vestigial leftovers from evolution, such as the pancreas, because their functions weren’t blatantly obvious.

Then there’s the assumption that DNA that they thought had no purpose, had to be a viral insertion, or junk DNA, which wasn’t the case at all.

So assumptions that nobody ever actualy made.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Why would we think the body in the Shroud was that of Jesus? As explained above, it is exceedingly improbable that the Shroud is a medieval forgery. First, there are no paints, dyes or other pigments on the Shroud (except for the small flecks coming from the sanctification of icons and paintings which touched it). Secondly, the anatomical precision of the blood stains—which are real human blood that congealed on the Shroud before the formation of the image—are in precise anatomical correlation to the image itself. How could a medieval forger have accomplished this? Thirdly, it is exceedingly difficult to explain how pollen grains indigenous to Palestine appeared in abundance on a shroud of probable Semitic origin (if it originated in medieval Europe) and how coins minted in 29 A.D. in Palestine appeared on the eyes of the man on the Shroud. How could a medieval forger have duplicated these first century Palestinian characteristics of the Shroud? Fourthly, the five enigmas of the image on the Shroud almost certainly preclude a forgery. How could a medieval forger have used vacuum ultraviolet radiation to discolor the cloth on the uppermost surface of the fibrils? How could he have created a perfect photographic negative image? How could he have created a double image on the frontal part of the Shroud? And how could he have known how to duplicate the interior and exterior of the hands in perfect proportion to each other? Thus, it does not seem reasonable or responsible to believe that the Shroud is a medieval forgery. Beyond this, there are three probative kinds of evidence pointing specifically to Jesus’ place and time of origin and to his unique crucifixion and resurrection:1.The material of the Shroud, the pollen grains on it, and the coins on the man’s eyes, all have their origin in First Century Palestine –the place where Jesus was purported to have died.2.The blood stains come from a crucifixion event identical to the one described in the four Gospels –which was very unusual, if not unique, in many respects –such as being crowned with thorns, being flogged, and being pierced with a Roman pilium (see above –the Introduction to this article).3.The five enigmas of the Shroud’s image point to a transphysically caused burst of vacuum ultraviolet radiation from a mechanically transparent body. This is suggestive of the transformation of Jesus’ body from a physical one to a spiritual-glorified one(asreported by St.Paul and the fourGospels).The spiritual-glorifiedtransformation of Jesus’ body was unique to the Christian view of resurrection.180It was 180N.T. Wright elucidates several Christian mutations of Second Temple Judaism’s doctrine of resurrection. One of these mutations is the change from a merely corporeal resurrection (like a resuscitated corpse) in Jewish doctrine to a spiritual-corporeal resurrection (“spiritual body”--“pneumatikon soma”—1 Cor.15:44) in the Christian view. This is remarkable in view of the fact that early Christians did not want to separate themselves from the doctrine of Second Temple Judaism. Why then, did the early Christians do this? After an exhaustive analysis, Wright concludes there is CCBB - Volume 3 - Evidence for the History and Divinity of Jesus Christ98

not known in Judaism (which held to a resuscitation of the flesh) or pagan cults (which held to ethereal or ghostlike views of immortality). Thus, the enigmas on the Shroud’s image point to the uniquely Christian view of resurrection implied by Jesus’ risen appearance. The odds of this First Century Palestinian burial shroud --with the unique features of Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection --being that of anyone else is exceedingly remote. Inasmuch as the image is not a forgery, and it originated from a real person living at the time of Jesus, crucified in the unique way of Jesus, and producing a burst of intense vacuum ultraviolet radiation from his decomposing body, who else would it be? Given all this, we might reasonably infer that the Shroud is the burial cloth of Jesus which contains not only a relic of his crucifixion, but also his resurrection in glory. If so, it shows both the truth of the most significant event in human history as well as the accuracy of the Gospel accounts of it.

https://www.crediblecatholic.com/the-7-essential-modules/#big-book

You understand that no jew would be buried with coins on their eyes.
This pagan Greek custom was never adopted by jews.
If Jesus was a jew, he would be buried in accordance with jewish custom. Not pagan Greek.

 

[AV1611VET]

I remember AV1611VET posting a list of hurricanes that all were somehow linked to peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

You mean this?

• 30 October 1991: The Halloween Monster, a.k.a. The Perfect Storm, strikes the U.S. amid the "land-for-peace" Madrid peace talks; President Bush's ocean-side home destroyed.
• 23 August 1992: President Bush moves Madrid talks to U.S. soil; that very day, Hurricane Andrew devastates southern Florida.
• 16 January 1994: President Clinton meets with Syrian President Hafez Assad to discuss more "land for peace" arrangements; less than 24 hours later, a 6.9 earthquake pulverized southern California.
• 1 September 1993: President Clinton announces a meeting with Arafat for the Oslo peace accords, to be held on 13 September; after a week of meandering in the Atlantic Ocean, Hurricane Emily hits North Carolina on that very day.
• 21 January 1998: while waiting to meet with Arafat at the White House, President Clinton's sex scandal breaks out.
• 27 September 1998: Arafat is meeting with the president in Washington; Hurricane Georges hits Alabama and stalls. The hurricane stalls until Arafat leaves and then it dissipates. Parts of Alabama declared a disaster area.
• 17 October 1998: Arafat comes to the Wye Plantation meeting; incredible rains fall on Texas, which cause record flooding. Parts of Texas declared a disaster area.
• 3 September 1999: Secretary of State Albright meets with Arafat in Israel; Hurricane Dennis comes ashore on this very day after weeks of changing course in the Atlantic Ocean.
• 12-26 July 2000: Arafat at the Camp David meetings. Powerful droughts throughout the country. Forest fires explode in West into uncontrollable fires. By the end of August, 7 million acres are burnt.
• 9 November 2000, two days after the presidential election: Arafat meets with President Clinton at the White House to try and salvage the peace process; worst election crisis in over 100 years occurs.

God hates peace or something.

I'll tell you what.

You go settle on your land, then let some of the neighbors come along and say, "I want this plot ... then that plot ... and that plot over there ..."

You call the sheriff, and he comes and says, "Aw ... give them some of your land, if it'll make them happy!"

What would you do?

 

[AV1611VET]

Scientist names species tooth came from.

That's all I wanted you to say, captain.

You can go on and on and on about how bad the tabloids were, but scientists did their part as well; and it's the scientists, not the tabloids, I'm calling out.

 

[Astrid]

You've obviously spent a lot of time and effort on this, When are you going to tie it to the OP?

Or post something that says the opposite and
explains wny the church won't let it be tested.

 

[Astrid]

So why suggest otherwise?

No. A scientist named it.


No. But tabloids ARE in the habit of spinning wild tales around scientific discoveries.
Farmer discovers tooth.
Scientist names species tooth came from.
Tabloid makes up wild story about species.

Notice that no scientist ever suggested that the tooth was from a human. That was all on the tabloid.
An anatomist suggested that it MAY have come from a primate of some sort. Based on preliminary examination. And then he caught his mistake, and realized it was not from a primate, and announced that he had made a mistake.
A TABLOID ran with the preliminary identification of "primate", and spun that into "primitive human". And then made up the details,with zero input from any scientists.

Sounds like creobehaviour

 

[Speedwell]

That's all I wanted you to say, captain.

You can go on and on and on about how bad the tabloids were, but scientists did their part as well; and it's the scientists, not the tabloids, I'm calling out.

For making a mistake and then correcting it themselves. And why does that get your knickers in such a twist?

 

[disciple Clint]

You've obviously spent a lot of time and effort on this, When are you going to tie it to the OP?

a question is about a specific item is asked, I give an answer about that specific question, apparently you do not like me posting things that draw attention to the existence of God, so then you complain that the answer is off topic. SOLUTION: do not ask off topic questions that are going to cause off topic answers.

 

[AV1611VET]

For making a mistake and then correcting it themselves. And why does that get your knickers in such a twist?

Because scientists are good at lighting fires, then putting them out.

You can call it a mistake, but I submit that they were so anxious to get a Nobel prize or something, that they fell over themselves to propagate "their" finding to the public.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

 

[Speedwell]

You ask a question about a specific item, I give you an answer about that specific question, apparently you do not like me posting things that draw attention to the existence of God, so then you complain that the answer is off topic. SOLUTION: do not ask off topic questions if you do not want off topic answers.

No, I just wonder what your intention is is drawing attention to the existence of God as it is not really relevant to the discussion. This is a discussion about creationism and evolution--not the existence of God--and there are theists, devout Christians, on both sides of the issue.

 

[Speedwell]

Because scientists are good at lighting fires, then putting them out.

You can call it a mistake, but I submit that they were so anxious to get a Nobel prize or something, that they fell over themselves to propagate "their" finding to the public.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

No, they did not fall all over themselves to publicize their finding. The Press did all the work.

 

[disciple Clint]

You understand that no jew would be buried with coins on their eyes.
This pagan Greek custom was never adopted by jews.
If Jesus was a jew, he would be buried in accordance with jewish custom. Not pagan Greek.

No I do not understand that "no jew would be buried with coins on their eyes", do you have evidence that what you are saying is correct?

 

[AV1611VET]

No, they did not fall all over themselves to publicize their finding. The Press did all the work.

I'm sorry. I don't believe you.

This thing was given a scientific name right from the get-go.

That tells me scientists were involved.

And the speed with which they reacted is telling.

After all, aren't they still quibbling over how we got our moon? how long have they known we've had one?

 

[VirOptimus]

You mean this?

• 30 October 1991: The Halloween Monster, a.k.a. The Perfect Storm, strikes the U.S. amid the "land-for-peace" Madrid peace talks; President Bush's ocean-side home destroyed.
• 23 August 1992: President Bush moves Madrid talks to U.S. soil; that very day, Hurricane Andrew devastates southern Florida.
• 16 January 1994: President Clinton meets with Syrian President Hafez Assad to discuss more "land for peace" arrangements; less than 24 hours later, a 6.9 earthquake pulverized southern California.
• 1 September 1993: President Clinton announces a meeting with Arafat for the Oslo peace accords, to be held on 13 September; after a week of meandering in the Atlantic Ocean, Hurricane Emily hits North Carolina on that very day.
• 21 January 1998: while waiting to meet with Arafat at the White House, President Clinton's sex scandal breaks out.
• 27 September 1998: Arafat is meeting with the president in Washington; Hurricane Georges hits Alabama and stalls. The hurricane stalls until Arafat leaves and then it dissipates. Parts of Alabama declared a disaster area.
• 17 October 1998: Arafat comes to the Wye Plantation meeting; incredible rains fall on Texas, which cause record flooding. Parts of Texas declared a disaster area.
• 3 September 1999: Secretary of State Albright meets with Arafat in Israel; Hurricane Dennis comes ashore on this very day after weeks of changing course in the Atlantic Ocean.
• 12-26 July 2000: Arafat at the Camp David meetings. Powerful droughts throughout the country. Forest fires explode in West into uncontrollable fires. By the end of August, 7 million acres are burnt.
• 9 November 2000, two days after the presidential election: Arafat meets with President Clinton at the White House to try and salvage the peace process; worst election crisis in over 100 years occurs.

I'll tell you what.

You go settle on your land, then let some of the neighbors come along and say, "I want this plot ... then that plot ... and that plot over there ..."

You call the sheriff, and he comes and says, "Aw ... give them some of your land, if it'll make them happy!"

What would you do?

I cant roll my eyes hard enough.

 

[Speedwell]

I'm sorry. I don't believe you.

This thing was given a scientific name right from the get-go.

That tells me scientists were involved.

And the speed with which they reacted is telling.

After all, aren't they still quibbling over how we got our moon? how long have they known we've had one?

So what? The rise and fall of Nebraska Man was no skin off my nose.

 

[disciple Clint]

No, I just wonder what your intention is is drawing attention to the existence of God as it is not really relevant to the discussion. This is a discussion about creationism and evolution--not the existence of God--and there are theists, devout Christians, on both sides of the issue.

I think your post is off topic, this thread is not about what I post in answer to the questions I am asked, please try to say on topic.