Maybe it's time to define, "Fall Away". Is it always the same meaning/use?

[Butterball1]

Once again, you don’t answer a question. So once again, does Christ pray that you won’t lose faith?

I answered in saying it is Christ's preceptive will that you, me and all men be saved.

Can you tell me what Christ is praying about right now?

 

[Hammster]

These verses do not give a basis. It says God does things after the counsel of His will but does not give a basis to God's will as to why He willed to save one person but not another.

You assume that you are owed a reason. God doesn’t owe us any explanation as to why He does anything.

 

[Hammster]

I answered in saying it is Christ's preceptive will that you, me and all men be saved.

Can you tell me what Christ is praying about right now?

I know how you answered. But you didn’t answer the actual question.

 

[Hammster]

Can you tell me what Christ is praying about right now?

I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
— John 17:11

“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
— John 17:20-21

 

[Saint Steven]

God NEVER UNconditionally, randomly saved men to begin with so God would not undo what He never done.

For whom was the lamb slain before the foundations of the world? He died for us before creation. How random and unconditional is that?

 

[Saint Steven]

Those that continue to believe, continue to hear and follow Christ John 10:27 are Christ sheep. It's those that wander away in unbelief that become lost.

And what does the good shepherd do for those lost sheep? Aren't they the ones you claim will not be saved because they didn't endure to the end?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Why did the good shepherd leave the ninety-nine to go after the one lost sheep? Did the lost sheep "continue to believe"?

 

[Saint Steven]

Your argument is dead on this one point. Free gifts can and often do come with precondition, this is a fact and reality in life. I gave some examples in a prior post about the store offering free ice cream but one must still do the work in going to the store and ordering in order to receive the free gift. And the work did not take anything away from the 'freeness' of the gift for it was still given to me for free (no charge at all) even though I did a necessary work.
Hebrews 11:7 the salvation of Noah's house from the flood was a free gift for God certainly did not owe that to Noah, Yet for Noah to receive that free gift God put the precondition that Noah first build the are IN ORDER to receive the gift. No obedient work = will not receive the free gift.
Nowhere EVER in the OT or NT is it said that one's obedience to God in order to receive God's free gift eanrs God's free gift. If God's free gift (grace/salvation) were totally UNconditional then all men would universally be saved (Titus 2:11). But that is not the case (Matthew 7:13) because salvation is not UNconditional thus those not meeting the condition of faith/obedience will suffer God's wrath in flaming fire, (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

You are claiming salvation is by works, then?

 

[Butterball1]

You are claiming salvation is by works, then?

Define what YOU mean by the phrase "salvation by works".

 

[Butterball1]

And what does the good shepherd do for those lost sheep? Aren't they the ones you claim will not be saved because they didn't endure to the end?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Why did the good shepherd leave the ninety-nine to go after the one lost sheep? Did the lost sheep "continue to believe"?

If one continues to believe he will not become lost for believers are the ones that "shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). It is those who stop believing altogether that become lost.

 

[Butterball1]

For whom was the lamb slain before the foundations of the world? He died for us before creation. How random and unconditional is that?

I never said anything about Christ' death being random. The issue is Calvinism claims Christ only died for SOME and only that SOME will be saved. So what basis was used to determine who would or would not be of that SOME?

 

[Butterball1]

I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
— John 17:11

“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
— John 17:20-21

Jesus prayed that disciples be ONE therefore Jesus did not teach the idea of demoninationalism.
So what is your point here?

 

[Hammster]

Jesus prayed that disciples be ONE therefore Jesus did not teach the idea of demoninationalism.
So what is your point here?

“Keep them in Your name”. It appears that you overlooked that part.

 

[Butterball1]

I know how you answered. But you didn’t answer the actual question.

I answered the question. Just because I did not answer it in away you think I should does not mean I did not answer the question.

You obviously ask these questions for in you mind you have laid some trap for me and wait for me to take the bait. Instead of taking your bait I give a Biblical answer to the question.

Does Christ desire I be saved? Yes. The Bible is clear that God desires all men be saved but all men will not be saved.

Whether or not you want to equate "desire" to "pray" is up to you.

Are you trying to suggest Jesus prays to God that I be saved. Since Jesus is God therefore Jesus is praying to Himself I be saved but if I am lost then Jesus denies His own prayers. Is this your little trap you tried to set for me?

 

[Butterball1]

You assume that you are owed a reason. God doesn’t owe us any explanation as to why He does anything.

I never said God oews man an explanation. I am asking Calvinist for that basis as to why God would save one and not another. God does explain in the Bible that obedience is that basis (Jeremiah 18:8-10) God has mercy upon thos who obey Him (as the king of Nineveh) and no mercy for those that do not obey (as Pharaoh). Calvinis denies this simple fact therefore leaving itself in the dark unable to give a reason for the basis. If you don't know the basis then you cannot even be sure if you are of those lucky ones God supposedly prechose.

Peter clearly states God is not a repecter of person when it comes to salvation, Acts 10:34-35. The reason being God allows men to choose to obey Him and be saved or not obey Him and be lost. God therefore is not accountable or biased in choices men make for themselves.
But if God does the choosing fro men before the world began as Calvinism claims then God would be culpable and biased in choosing for men which ones will be saved and which ones lost.

God predetermined a group (Christian) be saved but God does not choose for men which ones will or will not be in the group, men choose that for themselves. Thus God is not culpable for who is or is not in the group and therefore there is no bias on God's part when men do the choosing. But again, if God does the choosing then He is showing bias for those He choose to be in the group and culpability for those not chosen.

 

[Butterball1]

“Keep them in Your name”. It appears that you overlooked that part.

In the context, Jesus is specifically speaking about the Aposltes who God gave Jesus and He kept. John 17:12. Judas was among those given to Christ meaning Judas had been given eternal life (John 17:2), Judas kept God's word (John 17:6), Judas belonged to God (John 17:9) Judas was kept by Christ John 17:12) but ended being lost for he did not maintain a present tense belief therefore by transgression fell Acts 1:25.

 

[Hammster]

I answered the question. Just because I did not answer it in away you think I should does not mean I did not answer the question.

No, you replied to my post, but you in no way answered the question. If even you had said “no, and here’s why,” that would have been an answer.

You obviously ask these questions for in you mind you have laid some trap for me and wait for me to take the bait. Instead of taking your bait I give a Biblical answer to the question.

No, again. I ask the questions because if you actually answered them according to scripture, you’d see the flaw in your position. I want you to embrace the truth.

Are you trying to suggest Jesus prays to God that I be saved. Since Jesus is God therefore Jesus is praying to Himself I be saved but if I am lost then Jesus denies His own prayers. Is this your little trap you tried to set for me?

I’m not suggesting anything. I’ve shown that the Father gives sheep to His Son (because you wouldn’t answer the question), and I’ve shown that Christ prays for His people (because you wouldn’t answer the question).

 

[Hammster]

In the context, Jesus is specifically speaking about the Aposltes who God gave Jesus and He kept. John 17:12. Judas was among those given to Christ meaning Judas had been given eternal life (John 17:2), Judas kept God's word (John 17:6), Judas belonged to God (John 17:9) Judas was kept by Christ John 17:12) but ended being lost for he did not maintain a present tense belief therefore by transgression fell Acts 1:25.

And in the context He said that He wasn’t only praying for His disciples. And Judas was never His. He was the son of perdition.

 

[Saint Steven]

Define what YOU mean by the phrase "salvation by works".

"Salvation by works" would be salvation to eternal life NOT as a free gift by grace, but a conditional offer for which we have to do something to either earn it, or keep it. Are you claiming that salvation is by works?

Saint Steven said: ↑
You are claiming salvation is by works, then?

 

[Saint Steven]

If one continues to believe he will not become lost for believers are the ones that "shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). It is those who stop believing altogether that become lost.

How are such things measured? Do you never have doubts?

 

[Saint Steven]

I never said anything about Christ' death being random. The issue is Calvinism claims Christ only died for SOME and only that SOME will be saved. So what basis was used to determine who would or would not be of that SOME?

I believe in Universal Reconciliation. There is no SOME. God has ALREADY reconciled all things to himself through Christ. (things on earth and things in heaven) Peace was made on the cross.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.