Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Are God's 10 commandments moral laws of our duty of love to God and our fellow man in the new covenant if not why not if so how? (scripture please)

Your response...

Yes. Jewish believers keep the whole law.
For gentiles, no. The ten commandments were in the covenant with Israel. Now some may still be moral commands in the new covenant, but not in the form given to Israel.

So let's summarize so far so we can catch up a little latter...

You believe that God's 10 commandments are moral laws only for Israel of the old covenant but Gentiles believers in the new covenant according to you, only have to keep some of the 10 commandments but not all of them because they are not God's ISRAEL in the new covenant? Yet for this claim, you have no scripture to support this position despite God's new covenant promise of a new heart to love God and our fellow man which is the new covenant promise only ever being made to God's new covenant ISRAEL in Jeremiah 31:31-34 from Ezekiel 36:24-27 in Hebrews 8:10-12.

Your unable to define from the scriptures who God' ISRAEL is in the new covenant, despite all the scriptures provided in post # 967 linked, that proves Gods' ISRAEL in the new covenant is no longer physical Israel in the flesh from the old covenant but those who have been born again in the Spirit to believe and follow Gods' Word in the new covenant and there is now no more Jewish or Gentile believers as we are all one in Christ with gentiles being grafted in with believing Jews (Romans 11:13-27).

According to the scriptures provided in the linked post above, how can all believers both Jews and Gentiles not be a part of God's new covenant ISRAEL (defined in the scriptures as all those who believe and follow Gods Word) and still have access to Gods' new covenant promise which is only to ISRAEL which BTW is only a name given by God to his people defined in the new covenant as all those who believe and follow Gods' Word? (more scriptures on who God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are if your interested starting here linked)

Let's chat more latter

 

[tall73]

Indeed (Romans 9:6-8) we are in the new covenant now not the old covenant.

So you are not in Australia?

 

[BobRyan]

I would argue that Ephesians 6 is a good example of how it did not include the ten in their original context. Paul re-frames the promise to apply to gentiles outside the promised land.

The only unit of Law where the 5th commandment is "the first commandment with a promise" is the TEN. This is irrefutable proof that the context for the 5th commandment in Paul's quote was within the distinct unit of Law "the TEN".

Whereas in its original context it applied to Israel in the promised land. Which is a good example of "moral" principle in the law applying, but not the aspects relating the the context of Israel.

Moral law defines sin and applies to all mankind and all the confessions of faith in Christianity affirm this for all TEN - but more than that - I doubt there is even one denomination that will deny that the command to honor parents is not an unchanged moral law applicable to all mankind.

And of course in the OT - God specifically singles out gentiles for keeping the Sabbath Is 56:6-8

 

[BobRyan]

You know that non-Adventists do in fact see a value to her writings.

Certainly not for defining/clarifying doctrine - which is why I never quote her in a debate to show approval of a certain doctrinal point or Bible detail - the way I would for the "Baptist Confession of Faith" or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" or "D.L. Moody" or "C.H. Spurgeon" or "R.C. Sproul" or the CCC.

You may as well quote her. Because she is part of the debate whether you want her to be or not.

There is a bit of wishful thinking there.

 

[Freth]

The only unit of Law where the 5th commandment is "the first commandment with a promise" is the TEN. This is irrefutable proof that the context for the 5th commandment in Paul's quote was within the distinct unit of Law "the TEN".



Moral law defines sin and applies to all mankind and all the confessions of faith in Christianity affirm this for all TEN - but more than that - I doubt there is even one denomination that will deny that the command to honor parents is not an unchanged moral law applicable to all mankind.

And of course in the OT - God specifically singles out gentiles for keeping the Sabbath Is 56:6-8

Not to take away from your post, but in addition to it. The Sabbath commandment is also a promise.

Isaiah 56:1-2 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

Isaiah 58:13-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.​

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not to take away from your post, but in addition to it. The Sabbath commandment is also a promise.

Isaiah 56:1-2 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

Isaiah 58:13-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.​

And who was this promised made to? Assuredly, it was not me.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

And who was this promised made to? Assuredly, it was not me.

The promise is made to all those who believe and follow Gods Word according to the scripture *Romans 9:6-8. (more scriptures on who God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are if your interested starting here linked). If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL in the new covenant according to the new covenant scriptures we have no part in God's new covenant promise. *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 which is to God's new covenant ISRAEL.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So you are not in Australia?

Yes living in the new covenant. Everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as a requirement for Christian living in the new testament scriptures (scriptures support here and here)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The only unit of Law where the 5th commandment is "the first commandment with a promise" is the TEN. This is irrefutable proof that the context for the 5th commandment in Paul's quote was within the distinct unit of Law "the TEN".

Absolutely Bob, I like this scripture from Ephesians 6:2 Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise. It also proves what we were discussing through the scriptures earlier that the two great commandments of love to God and man that Jesus quotes from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 in Matthew 22:36-40 are as Paul says simply summarizing the 10 commandments. The 5th commandment of honoring our father and mother from Exodus 20:12 is the very first commandment as Paul shows in Romans 13:8-10 of how we love our neighbor. That is love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law. The first four commandments of the 10 commandments being how we love God with all of our heart and soul and the next six commandments being how we love our neighbor as our self (Romans 13:9-10).

Thanks for sharing this.

 

[tall73]

The only unit of Law where the 5th commandment is "the first commandment with a promise" is the TEN. This is irrefutable proof that the context for the 5th commandment in Paul's quote was within the distinct unit of Law "the TEN".

That doesn't follow. Exodus 19 God lays out the broad strokes of the covenant. The people agree to do all that the Lord commands.

He relates the 10 commandments in Exodus 20. They were the first of any of the commandments to be given.

Once the ten are given the people are in fear:

Exo 20:18 Now when all the people saw the thunder and the flashes of lightning and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled, and they stood far off
Exo 20:19 and said to Moses, “You speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let God speak to us, lest we die.”
Exo 20:20 Moses said to the people, “Do not fear, for God has come to test you, that the fear of him may be before you, that you may not sin.”
Exo 20:21 The people stood far off, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.​

Then the other commands were given. So sure, it was the first commandment with a promise. And I think everyone acknowledges it is in the 10. However, that does not cut out other commandments beyond the ten from the statement.

How many ten commandments have a promise? He said FIRST, not ONLY.

I doubt there is even one denomination that will deny that the command to honor parents is not an unchanged moral law applicable to all mankind.

Nor should they. Read my post again. Paul recognizes it as applicable moral law. He reiterates that law. But he does not state it the same as in the commandment to Israel. He changes the promise, which was specific to their context.

The covenant with Israel was specific to their land. And in the covenant curses and blessings remaining in the land was dependent on obedience. The promise relates to them staying in the land the Lord God gave them.

Paul restates the command, but changes the promise to something that applies to all people, in every land. So he has taken moral law and shown that it is still applicable, but also took the promise with it, and restated to make it more applicable.

That is why I said that the ten commandments to Israel are not moral law as stated. But they contain moral laws, phrased within the context of the covenant people, in the land the Lord gave them.

 

[tall73]

Absolutely Bob, I like this scripture from Ephesians 6:2 Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise. It also proves what we were discussing through the scriptures earlier that the two great commandments of love to God and man that Jesus quotes from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 in Matthew 22:36-40 are as Paul says simply summarizing the 10 commandments. The 5th commandment of honoring our father and mother from Exodus 20:12 is the very first commandment as Paul shows in Romans 13:8-10 of how we love our neighbor. That is love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law. The first four commandments of the 10 commandments being how we love God with all of our heart and soul and the next six commandments being how we love our neighbor as our self (Romans 13:9-10).

Thanks for sharing this.

Please show the second of the ten commandments with a promise. He was speaking of all the law. See post 990.

 

[tall73]

Certainly not for defining/clarifying doctrine - which is why I never quote her in a debate to show approval of a certain doctrinal point or Bible detail - the way I would for the "Baptist Confession of Faith" or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" or "D.L. Moody" or "C.H. Spurgeon" or "R.C. Sproul" or the CCC.

I stated for non-sda's Ellen White's writings are a good way to show Adventist teaching because most Adventists agree with her writings.

No, using it to prove something to someone who does not accept she is inspired would prove nothing.

Showing me confessions of faith of other groups also doesn't mean anything to me in the same way the writings of Ellen White mean something to you.

You have said you consider her inspired. I do not at all consider any of the theologians you mentioned inspired. I disagree with them on a number of things. And you do as well.

There is a bit of wishful thinking there.

Wishful thinking that you would acknowledge the implications of your decision once you consider Ellen White to be inspired?

Sure. But I know what it means. And you know what it means. It means you think all the things she wrote are true.

Therefore, I will use that to show what Adventists like you, who claim to accept her writings, hold as true.

And it also means if she says something you have a hard time disagreeing with it.

 

[tall73]

It also proves what we were discussing through the scriptures earlier that the two great commandments of love to God and man that Jesus quotes from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 in Matthew 22:36-40 are as Paul says simply summarizing the 10 commandments.

Mat 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
​

It tells you what hangs on these two commands, and it is more than the ten commandments.

​

 

[tall73]

Yet for this claim, you have no scripture to support this position despite God's new covenant

We haven't gotten to your line of reasoning about the gentiles being part of Israel. I addressed your question before that, and I am waiting on whether you think that you must not shave the sides of your head, disfigure your beard, and what are your views of mixing livestock.

Then I will address the Israel material after that, since we are trading questions.

 

[tall73]

Yes living in the new covenant. Everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant as a requirement for Christian living in the new testament scriptures (scriptures support here and here)

Exo 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
​

The commandment, as related to Israel, was tied to the covenant curses and blessings in which disobedience would result in them being driven from the land.

I did not state that the commandment to honor father and mother is not moral. I stated that Paul changes the promise. He restates the moral command to honor father and mother. And he relates a promise more fitting to gentiles who do not live in the promised land, where the curses of being removed from the land apply.

So the command does not apply as given to the Israelites. The command is still moral law, and binding on gentiles.

And it is the first of the commandments given, more than just the ten, with a promise.

The other of the ten did not have a promise. And he did not say only command with a promise. He said the first.

It is your turn to address beard disfigurement and livestock laws. Then I will respond to the idea of being Israelites.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Please show the second of the ten commandments with a promise. He was speaking of all the law. See post 990.

Not really. The context of Ephesians 6:1-3 is speaking to children [v1] telling them to honor their parents saying "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise." in [v2], which is actually the fifth commandment of the 10 commandment found in Exodus 20:12.

Though it is the fifth commandment of the 10 commandments Paul calls it the first commandment with promise because the fifth commandment of the 10 commandments to honor our father and mother is the first commandment of our duty of love to our neighbor which is the second great commandment as Jesus teaches in Matthew 22:26-40 where he quotes Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

Jesus says here that the two greatest commandments of loving God with all of our heart mind and soul and the second great commandment as loving our neighbor as our selves is simply summarizing obedience to God's 10 commandments and God's word. Honoring our parents therefore as it is shown in Ephesians 6:1-3 is the first commandment of our duty of love to our fellow man. Paul expresses the same concept here in Romans 13:8-10 where he says

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. For this, {notice if we love our neighbor we will keep God's commandments} You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law".

No one loves God or their fellow man by breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments as love is expressed through obedience to God's law not by breaking God's 10 commandments according to the scriptures. (see 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14).

Hope this is helpful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Mat 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
​

It tells you what hangs on these two commands, and it is more than the ten commandments.

The point being made that I am glad your now conceding is that if we love God and our fellow man we will be keeping all of God's 10 commandments as shown in these scriptures. This of course includes Gods' 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments as shown in Exodus 20:8-11.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

We haven't gotten to your line of reasoning about the gentiles being part of Israel.

According to God's Word in the new covenant God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word. There is now no more Jewish believer or Gentile believer under Gods' new covenant gospel commission. All believers are now one in Christ. If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL in the new covenant we have no part in God's new covenant promise of Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. Gentile believers are now grafted in place of Jewish unbelievers according to the scriptures and very much a part of God's true ISRAEL according to the scriptures. (detailed scripture response starting here if your interested on who God's ISRAEL is in the new covenant).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Exo 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
​

The commandment, as related to Israel, was tied to the covenant curses and blessings in which disobedience would result in them being driven from the land.

I did not state that the commandment to honor father and mother is not moral. I stated that Paul changes the promise. He restates the moral command to honor father and mother. And he relates a promise more fitting to gentiles who do not live in the promised land, where the curses of being removed from the land apply.

So the command does not apply as given to the Israelites. The command is still moral law, and binding on gentiles.

No. As posted earlier, according to the new covenant scriptures, God's ISRAEL are all those who now believe and follow God's Word (detailed scripture support starting here if your interested).

God's people (ISRAEL) in the new covenant are no longer those who walk in the flesh *Romans 9:6-8 but those who are now born again (John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9) to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16. They keep all of God's 10 commandments because they have been born again to through faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:2-4.

According to Jesus on these two great commandments to love hang all the law and the prophets this of course includes as you have admitted now, God's 10 commandments which is how we love God and our fellow man.

Paul says the same thing as Jesus does in Matthew 22:36-40 when he tells us that God's second commandment of loving out neighbor is simply summing up those of the 10 commandments that are our duty of love to our fellow man in Romans 13:9.

John in 1 John 3:4-10 also shows us that the difference between those who are born again to love (the children of God) in God's new covenant promise from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27 and repeated by Paul in Hebrews 8:10-12 and those who are the children of the devil is sin (breaking Gods commandments) as those who are born again do not practice sin and if we say we know God while knowingly practicing breaking his commandments the scriptures tell us that we are lying and the truth is not in us (see 1 John 2:3-4; Hebrews 10:26-31; 1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14).

Hope this is helpful.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not really. The context of Ephesians 6:1-3 is speaking to children [1] telling them to honor their parents saying "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise." in v2, which is actually the fifth commandment of the 10 commandment found in Exodus 20:12.

Though it is the fifth commandment of the 10 commandments Paul calls it the first commandment with promise because the fifth commandment of the 10 commandments to honor our father and mother is the first commandment of our duty of love to our neighbor which is the second great commandment as Jesus teaches in Matthew 22:26-40 where he quotes Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

Jesus says here that the two greatest commandments of loving God with all of our heart mind and soul and the second great commandment as loving our neighbor as our selves is simply summarizing obedience to God's 10 commandments and God's word. Honoring our parents therefore as it is shown in Ephesians 6:1-3 is the first commandment of our duty of love to our fellow man. Paul expresses the same concept here in Romans 13:8-10 where he says

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. For this, {notice if we love our neighbor we will keep God's commandments} You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law".

No one loves God or their fellow man by breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments as love is expressed through obedience to God's law not by breaking God's law according to the scriptures. (see 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14).

Hope this is helpful.

If you truly love God, as you assert, why is it that you selectively ignore His commandments?