Jesus could do no deed of power there

fhansen

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What? The Bible is full of references to our sinful condition prior to coming to Faith.
Of course. We're lost, in need of being found, sick, in need of being healed, dead, in need of being raised. We can't find, cure, or raise ourselves. But that doesn't mean we can't refuse to be found, cured or raised. God works in very subtle ways with the human will, drawing, without determining, its right orientation and choices.
 
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Albion

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Of course. We're lost, in need of being found, sick, in need of being healed, dead, in need of being raised. We can't find, cure, or raise ourselves. But that doesn't mean we can't refuse to be found, cured or raised.
That is so. And there are churches which take that view which I would think deserves to be thought of as somewhere in the middle of the range of choices offered by the various denominations.
 
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Clare73

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All right, then why would it be necessary for Him to dictate whether you are saved or not?
No one would be saved if God did not alter their disposition to belief.
 
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fhansen

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No one would be saved if God did not alter their disposition to belief.
And yet, even empowered and enabled to believe, He still doesn't force us to make that act. Faith is both a gift and a human choice.
 
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disciple Clint

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We are in partial agreement again. YES, only God can do miracles. So, if WE do a miracle, it is DEFINITELY God working through us. However, some "doing" is required by us. These things typically don't happen spontaneously.

I can give a personal testimony, which you will likely reject. But someone else might benefit.

And are you aware of the spiritual gift of miracles? (miraculous powers)

1 Corinthians 12:7-11 NIV
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
I have no problem with any of that, in fact I am a continuationist. I do not see that as being against orthodox teachings.
 
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disciple Clint

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Well... Orthodox Christian Theology and The Council of Chalcedon 451 seem to be in disagreement with the Apostle Paul in Philippians chapter two. What to do, what to do... ???

Saint Steven said:
I agree partially. Yes, only God can do miracles. Jesus was a conduit, just like us. He said "... the Son can do nothing by himself...". See John 5:19 below.

Jesus laid aside his deity when he became a man. (did not use it to his advantage) See Philippians 2:6 below.
I am not going to tell people what to believe, your understanding of John 5:18 and Philippians 2:6 is not consistent with Orthodox Christianity if you believe that Jesus was any less God or had any less power than God, if you want to debate that I can provide volumes of evidence. Jesus was not just a conduit, Jesus was and is and always has been God with all the powers of God anytime He wanted to use them.
 
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Nathan@work

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And yet, even empowered and enabled to believe, He still doesn't force us to make that act. Faith is both a gift and a human choice.

I would say Faith is the human response to the gift of it from God.

The gift, without a response(which is actually rejection, so in a way it is a response) is faithlessness.

Human response to ‘something’ besides the gift is simply just pride.
 
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disciple Clint

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No offence but I think all believers have a right to assess what the scriptures are stating and not using Councils as some authoritative absolute standard of the credibility of things. Anything spoken or taught after the Apostles themselves always stand a chance that they're wrong. Don't necessarily mean that they weren't Christians but whole groups can be somewhat wrong about a lot of things. And even with that it doesn't mean one labels them heretics BUT .... people CAN be wrong. What do the scriptures say? I think our arguments should be based on them and only them. As for me I can never get around the fact that the Bible says, Jesus GREW in wisdom. Luke 2:40

You wouldn't have to grow in wisdom IF you walked in all your attributes which he clearly didn't. I believe too I've heard all the arguments what it meant for him to grow in wisdom arguments which still try to retain he walked in his attributes but I've never really felt comfortable with them. To me it seems like a clear refusal to accept what's been revealed. I believe motives are good for wanting to do so for everyone wants to honour God but I think the Lord would say you're not dishonouring me by understanding exactly what took place at the incarnation and why it had to be a certain way.
I do not intend to tell people what to believe, I teach Orthodox Christian doctrine even though some of my person beliefs might slightly deviate from that doctrine. There are entire denominations based on misinterpretation of scripture and flawed Christology. I am hesitant to call any beliefs heretical even though some clearly are. Trying to establish a belief system based only on isolated Scripture is always going to lead to errors and potentially heretical beliefs. Regarding Jesus growing in wisdom, there is nothing inconsistent in that statement. Jesus assumed a human nature, that nature developed in knowledge and wisdom just as any other human does. How the human nature and the nature of the second person of the Trinity communicated is unclear and a mystery. It is safe to say that the human nature of Jesus was perfected in faith and sanctification beyond anything that any of us is capable of being. It is important to keep in mind the findings of the Council of Chalcedon declared that Jesus possesses the perfect Godhead and the perfect manhood. His fully divine nature is united with His fully human nature yet without mixing, blending or alteration. I hope this is helpful and not seen as critical of anyone or their beliefs.
 
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disciple Clint

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I use this analogy to explain a possible way the whole thing works: The earth is a WalMart store. It has employees and department managers who are the face of the company to customers. They are the company to the customers. It also has a store manager who we all answer to. As far as we are concerned, he IS the company. He IS the head of the company as far as those of us in the store are concerned.

So, the head of the whole company is God. The store manager is Jesus, and we are the rest.

Oh, and there is more than one Wal-Mart store.

Everything above is from the perspective of "through a glass darkly". The bible is written for man. Man on earth. So do I believe the above? No. Do I think it's possible? Yes.
And that view is called Subordinationism and it is rejected by Orthodox Christian Theology. https://www.theopedia.com/subordinationism
 
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disciple Clint

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I get you're wanting to be a strength to people. I commend you for that. You should know though that there are times that's the thing you might need to do that it might be something a person has done or is doing which could be serving as a roadblock to healing. Actually the Apostle Paul even taught why MANY are sick and weak among the church and that is because of things they're doing or not doing. Am I being unkind in saying this? I think I"m quoting below at what God said through the Apostle Paul,

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 1 Cor 11: 30

As we see Paul wasn't totally silent on this issue. Even though we mean well, nope we never want to hurt people or offend them of course not BUT are we really loving them by not teaching that yes there are roadblocks to healing? Why did Paul even teach it? Wasn't it so there wouldn't be MANY weak and sick among them? We certainly don't read from him that no that's not something one shouldn't seek God about.

I think we stumble though in not being able to tell the difference between someone beating another over the head with a Bible knowledge thus making the hearer feel condemned as compared to someone who's heart is in a right place wanting the other merely to be helped and edified. Merely by teaching on the issue doesn't mean the other is unkind and I"m guessing you want the same end result too....that there would not be MANY not just a few but that there would not be MANY weak and sickly among us. I think we all want to see everyone strong and healed.



And as we've seen God HAS given us revelation why it could be possible many are sick or weak so that we need not be. We're not left in the dark about this. 1 Cor 11: 30. And in speaking about Job let's keep in mind too that he got healed and was restored.
My concern involves those who want to blame a suffering person for their failure to receive healing. anyone who says or infers that someone was not healed or is sick because of something that they themselves did that is causing God to punish them is not only being heartless and uncaring but they are also most probably wrong. Point in fact no one has any idea why God does what He does. Clearly the Book of Job, likely the oldest book of the Bible, is a wisdom book that teaches that man is in no way able to understand God or God's actions. It also teaches that bad things happen to good people due to no fault of their own. Job's "friends" continually try to assert that Job is responsible for his misfortunes and sickness however the reader knows that they are absolutely wrong. These are the major point made in the Book of Job so they should be understood by all believers. It strikes me as somewhat ironic to use a Pauline Scripture to support the assertion that people are responsible for their own failure to be healed or for their illness. Paul after all was perhaps the most obedient and faithful man in the Bible and yet he asked God three times to be healed of his affliction and God refused. Are we to conclude that Paul earned his affliction by his own misdeeds or that he was not healed due to his lack of faith?
 
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Saint Steven

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I am not going to tell people what to believe, your understanding of John 5:18 and Philippians 2:6 is not consistent with Orthodox Christianity if you believe that Jesus was any less God or had any less power than God, if you want to debate that I can provide volumes of evidence. Jesus was not just a conduit, Jesus was and is and always has been God with all the powers of God anytime He wanted to use them.
I'm not denying the deity of Christ. Just making the point that he laid it aside when he became a man. As per Philippians 2:6 and John 5:16

Why would Jesus say "... the Son can do nothing by himself..." if he was doing the miracles in his deity? And why would he require us to do miracles (as a conduit) if it required being God to do them? Were the Apostles God too?

Saint Steven said:
Well... Orthodox Christian Theology and The Council of Chalcedon 451 seem to be in disagreement with the Apostle Paul in Philippians chapter two. What to do, what to do... ???

Saint Steven said:
I agree partially. Yes, only God can do miracles. Jesus was a conduit, just like us. He said "... the Son can do nothing by himself...". See John 5:19 below.

Jesus laid aside his deity when he became a man. (did not use it to his advantage) See Philippians 2:6 below.
 
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Saint Steven

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@disciple Clint and anyone else that wants to read this,

Working miracles in America has become a pioneering work. An effort to regain what is commonplace in third world countries that are not overshadowed by unbelief in miracles.

If you would like to be a part of this pioneering work, you could follow these basic steps. (off the cuff)

1) You cannot heal anyone. Only God can heal.
2) If you fail to heal someone, see step number one.
3) Interview the person seeking healing to create a benchmark to work from. For instance a level of pain from 1 to 10, or the range of limited movement on a limb.
4) Begin to pray for healing.
5) Take a break to assess the situation based on the benchmark from the interview. Has the pain lessened or is there more freedom of movement. Take any improvement as progress and continue to pray.
6) Keep checking on progress until you reach your healing goal.
7) Thank God for the healing that has been achieved.
Here's an example of Jesus using the interview technique.

Mark 8:23-25 NIV
He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man’s eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, “Do you see anything?”
24 He looked up and said, “I see people; they look like trees walking around.”
25 Once more Jesus put his hands on the man’s eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly.
 
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disciple Clint

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I'm not denying the deity of Christ. Just making the point that he laid it aside when he became a man. As per Philippians 2:6 and John 5:16

Why would Jesus say "... the Son can do nothing by himself..." if he was doing the miracles in his deity? And why would he require us to do miracles (as a conduit) if it required being God to do them? Were the Apostles God too?

Saint Steven said:
Well... Orthodox Christian Theology and The Council of Chalcedon 451 seem to be in disagreement with the Apostle Paul in Philippians chapter two. What to do, what to do... ???

Saint Steven said:
I agree partially. Yes, only God can do miracles. Jesus was a conduit, just like us. He said "... the Son can do nothing by himself...". See John 5:19 below.

Jesus laid aside his deity when he became a man. (did not use it to his advantage) See Philippians 2:6 below.
Saint Steven said:
I agree partially. Yes, only God can do miracles. Jesus was a conduit, just like us. He said "... the Son can do nothing by himself...". See John 5:19 below
As I posted previously the answer to the question of why did Jesus say The Son can do nothing by himself is contained in understanding the economic Trinity. Nothing done by any member of the Trinity outside of the ontological Trinity is done alone. All three persons of the Trinity are acting when Jesus does miracles. This also provides the reason why Jesus is not just a conduit, He is an active participant. He never lost or failed to have available any of His powers. What He subdued was his Glory which was displayed in the transfiguration. He humbled Himself by taking the form of a man even though He was God. As I said I am not telling you what to believe but if you want to debate the accuracy of what I am sharing, I can provide lots of evidence.
 
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disciple Clint

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Here's an example of Jesus using the interview technique.

Mark 8:23-25 NIV
He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man’s eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, “Do you see anything?”
24 He looked up and said, “I see people; they look like trees walking around.”
25 Once more Jesus put his hands on the man’s eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly.
I have seen that method but then I have also seen Benny Hinn throw his coat, I wont tell you what I think of when I think of Benny Hinn.
 
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Direct Driver

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And that view is called Subordinationism and it is rejected by Orthodox Christian Theology. https://www.theopedia.com/subordinationism
I don't really care about "orthodox Christian Theology". I care about my relationship with my creator, and the grace he gives. And my understanding increases as I pray and read the bible, and apply what I learn.

Think of me as a smaller version of a modern "Luther". BTW, I was not saying I believed what I was posting. Rather, it is an interesting thought exercise to stimulate further study.
 
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disciple Clint

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I don't really care about "orthodox Christian Theology". I care about my relationship with my creator, and the grace he gives. And my understanding increases as I pray and read the bible, and apply what I learn.

Think of me as a smaller version of a modern "Luther". BTW, I was not saying I believed what I was posting. Rather, it is an interesting thought exercise to stimulate further study.
BTW I have a Teac reel to reel tape deck much like the one you show. It is in my attic, I have not used it for years.
 
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Saint Steven

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As I posted previously the answer to the question of why did Jesus say The Son can do nothing by himself is contained in understanding the economic Trinity. Nothing done by any member of the Trinity outside of the ontological Trinity is done alone. All three persons of the Trinity are acting when Jesus does miracles. This also provides the reason why Jesus is not just a conduit, He is an active participant. He never lost or failed to have available any of His powers. What He subdued was his Glory which was displayed in the transfiguration. He humbled Himself by taking the form of a man even though He was God. As I said I am not telling you what to believe but if you want to debate the accuracy of what I am sharing, I can provide lots of evidence.
A camel is a horse built by committee.
 
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Saint Steven

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I have seen that method but then I have also seen Benny Hinn throw his coat, I wont tell you what I think of when I think of Benny Hinn.
If God told me to throw my coat, I would throw my coat. Would you?
 
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