Universal Resurrection

[grafted branch]

I agree with this, however, there are a couple of other important questions that come from this.

1. When was the first resurrection?
2. Who are these "dead" that are resurrected?

I'll tell you what I think. The dead are all those who died before Jesus was resurrected, in other words all the people of the OT. The reason they needed a resurrection is because they actually died (unlike believers today who will never die). Those OT people returned to the dust of the earth, as God said they would. They "slept with their fathers" waiting for the resurrection, which is Jesus.

So of that entire group of people who died in the OT, I believe only the righteous were resurrected in the first century. The wicked will have to wait until after the thousand years have ended. In the meantime, those of us who've accepted Jesus today will never die and will literally be transformed into spiritual beings when our physical bodies die, unlike the OT saints who had to sleep in the dust of the earth, we go directly into the spiritual realm.

I agree and would also add that those who are beheaded, <3990> to cut off with an axe, in Revelation 20:4 should be associated with Matthew 3:10 where the axe is laid to the root of the trees and Mark 11:20 where the fig tree was dried up from the roots. So I see those who have been cut off with an axe (beheaded) as Israel, which can also be seen in Daniel 9:26 where Messiah (the root) is cut off.

There has always been a believing element in Israel which held the testimony of the examples in the scriptures that pointed to Christ. So I see the saints that are resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53, as those who are beheaded in Revelation 20:4 because Messiah was cut off. This is the first literal resurrection of many humans.

 

[Freedm]

Also not correct. Those who are raptured are raptured to the 1st heaven which is the clouds of the Earth. It is correct to say they are not raptured to the 2nd or 3rd heaven however.

And what would the point of that be?

 

[ewq1938]

I agree with this, however, there are a couple of other important questions that come from this.

1. When was the first resurrection?

The very first person to die and then be resurrected? I don't know if we know their name.

1. Who are these "dead" that are resurrected?

I'm not sure which "dead" you refer to here. Can you explain?

I'll tell you what I think. The dead are all those who died before Jesus was resurrected, in other words all the people of the OT. The reason they needed a resurrection is because they actually died (unlike believers today who will never die).

Believers have been dying throughout history and are dying daily so I don't understand why you think they can't die the first death. They won't die the second death but they will die the first death except those who are alive at the second coming.

So of that entire group of people who died in the OT, I believe only the righteous were resurrected in the first century.

I think that was a small, specific group who resurrected and I believe they resurrected back to mortality so would have died again like Lazarus etc.

The wicked will have to wait until after the thousand years have ended.

Agreed.

In the meantime, those of us who've accepted Jesus today will never die and will literally be transformed into spiritual beings when our physical bodies die, unlike the OT saints who had to sleep in the dust of the earth, we go directly into the spiritual realm.

Ok so when you say never die, you aren't counting the first death.

 

[Freedm]

So Lazarus was resurrected in what is considered the New Testament in our Bibles but the new covenant didn’t start until after Christs death (Hebrews 9:15-17).

So I personally would place the widows son and Lazarus in the old covenant; Christ as the first resurrection in the new covenant and the first literal bodily resurrection of many people in the new covenant occurring in Matthew 27:52-53.

Do you think those resurrected in Matthew 27 were resurrected in heavenly bodies, or did they live again in physical bodies only to die again some time later?

 

[ewq1938]

And what would the point of that be?

It's a meeting point mid-second coming. They are scattered all over the Earth so God will change them into immortals, then bring them up to one place in the clouds so they are all together, likely for the first time, plus then they are united with Christ to follow him as he descends and completes his arrival.

 

[Freedm]

So I see the saints that are resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53, as those who are beheaded in Revelation 20:4 because Messiah was cut off. This is the first literal resurrection of many humans.

So do you mean the beheading mentioned in Revelation 20 is figurative and not literal?

 

[Freedm]

Ok so when you say never die, you aren't counting the first death.

Yes, you could say it that way, but I want to emphasize that we will never experience a point in time in which we are dead. We will instantly pass from our natural body to our spiritual body, in the blink of an eye. Our natural body stays behind on earth to decay, while we go on living in our new spiritual body.

In other words, "I" am not my physical body. "I" am my existence and my consciousness, which currently resides in my physical body but will at some point be transferred to my new spiritual body, so when you look at it that way, I will literally never die. I will just transfer from the mortal to the immortal.

 

[Freedm]

It's a meeting point mid-second coming. They are scattered all over the Earth so God will change them into immortals, then bring them up to one place in the clouds so they are all together, likely for the first time, plus then they are united with Christ to follow him as he descends and completes his arrival.

Have you considered that this talk of "clouds" could be symbolic for something, like for example power and authority?

 

[Freedm]

Jesus is not the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20. The first resurrection there is the first group of the dead that resurrect.

But Jesus literally said "I am the resurrection".

 

[grafted branch]

Do you think those resurrected in Matthew 27 were resurrected in heavenly bodies, or did they live again in physical bodies only to die again some time later?

I think it was a fulfillment of Ezekiel 37, so I think it was physical bodies that came out of the graves but I’m not certain about whether their physical bodies went to heaven or not. I think these are the 144,000.

So do you mean the beheading mentioned in Revelation 20 is figurative and not literal?

Yes, I believe that’s correct.

 

[ewq1938]

But Jesus literally said "I am the resurrection".

Yes but that's not what he was telling John about in Revelation 20. He was telling John there is a group of people who died as Christians/Martyrs in the Great Tribulation that would be the first group to resurrect and that "the rest of the dead" would be the second group to resurrect and that a thousand years would be inbetween. It's actually slightly more than a thousand years years because the "little season" of rebellion happens before the last resurrection and we don't know that exact amount of time.

 

[ewq1938]

Have you considered that this talk of "clouds" could be symbolic for something, like for example power and authority?

No because the rapture is literal about moving people from the ground up to the clouds of the Earth. It's essentially the mid-point of the second coming, just prior to Christ's visible and bright arrival the whole world will witness.

 

[keras]

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This isn't just some of them but all the dead in Christ.

You have added 'all'. Bad you!
Revelation 20:4 is quite clear; only the trib martyrs will raised at Jesus' Return. The rest of the dead, from Adam until the end of the Millennium, must wait of the Great White Throne Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about the GWT Judgment. Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more.

As for a 'rapture to heaven', that theory is unbiblical nonsense.
We must endure until the end, standing firm in our faith and trusting in the Lord's protection.

 

[Freedm]

No because the rapture is literal about moving people from the ground up to the clouds of the Earth. It's essentially the mid-point of the second coming, just prior to Christ's visible and bright arrival the whole world will witness.

If you're saying it's not symbolic because it's literal then is that not what we call circular logic?

 

[ewq1938]

You have added 'all'. Bad you!

The context is concerning all so it's not really an addition. "part" of the dead in Christ don't rise while others wait. The passage is clear they all will rise at the same time.

Revelation 20:4 is quite clear; only the trib martyrs will raised at Jesus' Return.

Other passages make it clear more than that will. Revelation 20 only focuses on that one group but the others will rise with them. Even this makes that clear:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

This happens before anyone is killed in the Great Tribulation yet these ones will also reign with Christ on the Earth with the martyrs of Revelation 20.

The rest of the dead, from Adam until the end of the Millennium, must wait of the Great White Throne Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

Only the unsaved are resurrected for the GWTJ. All the unsaved dead will rise all at the same time. Remember, the dead in Christ rise first....not some of the dead in Christ.

As for a 'rapture to heaven', that theory is unbiblical nonsense.

A rapture to the 1st heaven is what Paul taught.

 

[ewq1938]

If you're saying it's not symbolic because it's literal then is that not what we call circular logic?

The texts that describe the rapture show it to be a literal moving of people from one place to another, which is exactly what happens everytime harpazo is used. There is zero evidence to support a figurative rapture.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you think those resurrected in Matthew 27 were resurrected in heavenly bodies, or did they live again in physical bodies only to die again some time later?

Why would any one die physically twice?

The only reason would be they still had a task to complete on earth.

Having said that, I think Lazarus with all the other OT church ascended on Sunday after Jesus had talked to Mary. The first person to physically die of the NT church was the thief on the Cross. He died a few hours after Jesus said it was finished. His soul went to Paradise. If Paradise is in the 1st Heaven, then that is where the church is.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Not so. In Revelation 20 there are two groups of the dead resurrecting. The first group is the first of those two groups. The second group is the "rest of the dead" which re those who weren't a part of the first group.

Christ being the first to resurrect to immortality is a completely different thing.

There are different "first resurrections"

1. the first bodily resurrection of a dead person being raised back to life in the OT.
2. the first bodily resurrection of a dead person being raised back to life in the NT.
3. the bodily resurrection of Christ.
4. the first of two mass bodily resurrections described in Rev 20.

Context will dictate which of these 4 any certain scripture refers to. Applying all of them to the resurrection of Christ is clear error.

Christ was the first to conquer the grave. Those who have their "part" in that great victory are spared the woe of the second death.

 

[ewq1938]

Christ was the first to conquer the grave. Those who have their "part" in that great victory are spared the woe of the second death.

Actually that first group of dead people to resurrect to life in Revelation 20 are spared the woe of the second death because they are judged to life, their names being in the book of life, and are resurrected into immortal bodies. "the rest of the dead" who do not resurrect with that first group will have to wait until after the thousand years has ended to resurrect and it's known as the resurrection of damnation.

"the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" Revelation 20:5

So, it's a blessing to resurrect before the thousand years begins. It is bad for those who have to wait for the resurrection that comes after the thousand years has ended because it is a resurrection of damnation:

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"

 

[keras]

The context is concerning all so it's not really an addition. "part" of the dead in Christ don't rise while others wait. The passage is clear they all will rise at the same time.

You have created a Biblical anomaly.
Paul says: the dead in Christ will rise.....At His coming
But Revelation 20:4 specifies exactly which dead will rise.

The only time ALL the dead will rise is at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. It is actually quite illogical to think every Christian dead person will be resurrected for the Millennium.
It is the martyrs of the Great Trib, who will rule and reign with Jesus, along with those faithful Christians who remain alive. 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:31

A rapture to the 1st heaven is what Paul taught.

Paul never did say we Christians would actually go to heaven. 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Eventually God and therefore heaven comes to us. Rev 21:1-7