Purgatory

[bbbbbbb]

Sc

There is also nothing specific in the Bible defining the Trinity. One God, three persons. You won't find the word "Trinity" in the Bible.

1 Pet 1:7
The genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire,
1 Cor 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
Your problem was the problem since the beginning of the "reformation." People said the Bible is clear authority yet even the three leaders had differing opinions right from the start, particularly about the Holy Eucharist.

Ah yes. The old fallback position on Purgatory. Purgatory must exist because -

A. It is not in the Bible, like the Trinity. Because "trinity" is not in the Bible and is a core Christian doctrine, Purgatory (and Nirvana, the Celestial Kingdom, the Wizard of Oz, et. al.) therefore are equally valid.
B. Because my particular denomination (RCC) tells me so.

 

[Valletta]

Ah yes. The old fallback position on Purgatory. Purgatory must exist because -

A. It is not in the Bible, like the Trinity. Because "trinity" is not in the Bible and is a core Christian doctrine, Purgatory (and Nirvana, the Celestial Kingdom, the Wizard of Oz, et. al.) therefore are equally valid.
B. Because my particular denomination (RCC) tells me so.

The various Protestant religions are splinter religions from the Catholic Church. Books of the Bible and various beliefs of the Catholic Church were dropped. In mathematical terms Protestant religions are a subset of Christ's universal Apostolic Church, many of these religions added the sola scriptura concept taken from an Arab theologian who preached the Quran was the ultimate authority. Your argument is that your subset of beliefs must be right because those beliefs are "a core Christian doctrine." If another religion splintered from your own and said only one book of the Bible was Holy Scripture that religion could argue they are right because the teaching that one book alone is Holy Scripture because is a "core Christian doctrine."
Remember the Catholic Church was in existence before one word of the New Testament was written. It was the Catholic Church that chose the 73 books of the Bible in the same order those books are today. Protestants took the order of books (and 66 of the books as well) from the Catholic Church, that is Protestant tradition. Remember also the Catholic Church preached the Bible over all of those centuries, tediously copying Holy Scripture and translating Biblical texts into common tongues. No Catholic Church--no Bible. Finally remember the Bible is the book of the Catholic Church--not the other way around.

 

[Major1]

Sc

There is also nothing specific in the Bible defining the Trinity. One God, three persons. You won't find the word "Trinity" in the Bible.

1 Pet 1:7
The genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire,
1 Cor 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
Your problem was the problem since the beginning of the "reformation." People said the Bible is clear authority yet even the three leaders had differing opinions right from the start, particularly about the Holy Eucharist.

But this thread is NOT about the Trinity is it.

That my friend is called "Deflection".

It is done when we feel as if we are losing a debate so we "Change" he subject hoping that where we are losing will just go away.

PURGATORY is NOT a Bible doctrine and is not found or even suggested or hinted at in any book of the Bible.....Percoid.

My suggestion to you is really very simple. Admit that Purgatory is NOT a Bible word or teaching and is solely a production of the Catholic church so as to obtain more money from the deceased Catholic's family.

Then everyone who is arguing with you will say.....See, told ya! Then this thread will end and we can all go to debate another false teaching.

 

[Major1]

The various Protestant religions are splinter religions from the Catholic Church. Books of the Bible and various beliefs of the Catholic Church were dropped. In mathematical terms Protestant religions are a subset of Christ's universal Apostolic Church, many of these religions added the sola scriptura concept taken from an Arab theologian who preached the Quran was the ultimate authority. Your argument is that your subset of beliefs must be right because those beliefs are "a core Christian doctrine." If another religion splintered from your own and said only one book of the Bible was Holy Scripture that religion could argue they are right because the teaching that one book alone is Holy Scripture because is a "core Christian doctrine."
Remember the Catholic Church was in existence before one word of the New Testament was written. It was the Catholic Church that chose the 73 books of the Bible in the same order those books are today. Protestants took the order of books (and 66 of the books as well) from the Catholic Church, that is Protestant tradition. Remember also the Catholic Church preached the Bible over all of those centuries, tediously copying Holy Scripture and translating Biblical texts into common tongues. No Catholic Church--no Bible. Finally remember the Bible is the book of the Catholic Church--not the other way around.

Hey....I think you finally got something right!

I actually thought that everyone knew that Protestantism is more a definition of the group of churches that broke off from the Roman Catholic Church during the sixteenth century rather than a religion in and of itself.

All protestant churches can trace their roots back to the protestant reformation that was initiated by Martin Luther when he wrote his 95 thesis and nailed it to the door of the Wittenburg Church. Following his questioning of the Holy Roman Empire, others started to question their authority and beliefs as well. Some of the more notable figures were John Calvin, Zwingli, Thomas Cranmer, and John Knox.

However, to think that the Catholic church gave the world the Bible is a gross implication. You as a Catholic only say that because the RCC has instructed you to say that when in fact it is not true! The RCC contends that the whole world is indebted to the Roman Catholic church for the existence of the Bible. This is another of their attempts to exalt the church as an authority in addition to the Bible.

It would seem unnecessary for the Catholic Church to make the boastful claim of giving the Bible to the world when both it and so-called Protestantism accept the Bible as a revelation from God.

However, it is an attempt to weaken the Bible as the sole authority and to replace it with their man-made church rules and traditions. If it is true that we can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church, doesn't that make the Catholic Church superior to the Bible?

This is exactly what Catholic officials want men to believe. Their only problem is that their doctrine comes from their own human reasoning rather than from God. Their logic is a classic example of their "circle reasoning."

They try to prove the Bible by the church (can accept the Bible only on the basis of the Catholic Church) and prove the church by the Bible, BUT.................."has the RCC ever grounded her doctrines upon the Bible????.

Example: Purgatory!
Example: Assumption of Mary!
Example: Immaculate Conception of Mary!

Those are man made fallacies and none can be found in any Bible translation.

Such is absurd reasoning which proves nothing. Either the New Testament is the sole authority or it is not. If it is the New Testament, it cannot be the church, and if it is the church, it cannot be the New Testament.

This is just not brain surgery.

 

[Valletta]

But this thread is NOT about the Trinity is it.

That my friend is called "Deflection".

It is done when we feel as if we are losing a debate so we "Change" he subject hoping that where we are losing will just go away.

PURGATORY is NOT a Bible doctrine and is not found or even suggested or hinted at in any book of the Bible.....Percoid.

My suggestion to you is really very simple. Admit that Purgatory is NOT a Bible word or teaching and is solely a production of the Catholic church so as to obtain more money from the deceased Catholic's family.

Then everyone who is arguing with you will say.....See, told ya! Then this thread will end and we can all go to debate another false teaching.

Yours is a deflection, mine was demonstrating that the fact that a specific English word is not in the proves nothing. As I said, the purification spoken of in the Bible is what Catholics call purgatory. I have no qualms about you calling it purification. Your accusation about more money is called slander.

 

[Major1]

Yours is a deflection, mine was demonstrating that the fact that a specific English word is not in the proves nothing. As I said, the purification spoken of in the Bible is what Catholics call purgatory. I have no qualms about you calling it purification. Your accusation about more money is called slander.

NOPE! Your post speaks for itself my friend. NO ONE spoke of the Trinity until you did. WHY?????

Deflection from Purgatory.

And not only that......The Catholic church teaches the Trinity which disproves your effort!

 

[Major1]

Yours is a deflection, mine was demonstrating that the fact that a specific English word is not in the proves nothing. As I said, the purification spoken of in the Bible is what Catholics call purgatory. I have no qualms about you calling it purification. Your accusation about more money is called slander.

The word you are struggling with is "Indulgences".

Source From Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1476.......
“We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints ‘the Church’s treasury’, which is “not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary, the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy,”

 

[bbbbbbb]

The various Protestant religions are splinter religions from the Catholic Church. Books of the Bible and various beliefs of the Catholic Church were dropped. In mathematical terms Protestant religions are a subset of Christ's universal Apostolic Church, many of these religions added the sola scriptura concept taken from an Arab theologian who preached the Quran was the ultimate authority. Your argument is that your subset of beliefs must be right because those beliefs are "a core Christian doctrine." If another religion splintered from your own and said only one book of the Bible was Holy Scripture that religion could argue they are right because the teaching that one book alone is Holy Scripture because is a "core Christian doctrine."
Remember the Catholic Church was in existence before one word of the New Testament was written. It was the Catholic Church that chose the 73 books of the Bible in the same order those books are today. Protestants took the order of books (and 66 of the books as well) from the Catholic Church, that is Protestant tradition. Remember also the Catholic Church preached the Bible over all of those centuries, tediously copying Holy Scripture and translating Biblical texts into common tongues. No Catholic Church--no Bible. Finally remember the Bible is the book of the Catholic Church--not the other way around.

I suppose you also believe that the various Orthodox Churches are also splinter groups from your denomination. BTW, St. Jerome rejected the deuterocanonical books from the canon of scripture.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The word you are struggling with is "Indulgences".

Source From Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1476.......
“We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints ‘the Church’s treasury’, which is “not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary, the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy,”

I always find it curious that the Treasury of St. Peter is infinite in its extent and is more than able to extract each and every Catholic from Purgatory, but the Pope is exceedingly stingy in limiting the infinite mercies of God and doles out the indulgences only to those Catholics who do something (usually paying for masses, but other good works as well) to merit the indulgences.

Is God really so stingy in His grace and mercy?

 

[Valletta]

I suppose you also believe that the various Orthodox Churches are also splinter groups from your denomination. BTW, St. Jerome rejected the deuterocanonical books from the canon of scripture.

Wrong again, that's a fabrication, Saint Jerome accepted all 73 books that were approved by the pope and Catholic Church councils as the Word of God.

 

[Valletta]

I always find it curious that the Treasury of St. Peter is infinite in its extent and is more than able to extract each and every Catholic from Purgatory, but the Pope is exceedingly stingy in limiting the infinite mercies of God and doles out the indulgences only to those Catholics who do something (usually paying for masses, but other good works as well) to merit the indulgences.

Is God really so stingy in His grace and mercy?

The "usually for masses" is yet another fabrication. What does the Bible say about gossip?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Wrong again, that's a fabrication, Saint Jerome accepted all 73 books that were approved by the pope and Catholic Church councils as the Word of God.

I hope you find this enlightening - Jerome - Wikipedia

 

[bbbbbbb]

The "usually for masses" is yet another fabrication. What does the Bible say about gossip?

Does the Catholic Church still accept financial offerings for masses to be said for the souls of departed Catholics? I don't know what your church does in this regard, but I have yet to encounter any Catholic church where this is not a standard practice.

 

[Valletta]

I hope you find this enlightening - Jerome - Wikipedia

Wikipedia is not a credible source, any anti-Catholic can post information there. If they disagree you have my permission to post my words on Jerome. I for one have actually read what Jerome said.

 

[Valletta]

Does the Catholic Church still accept financial offerings for masses to be said for the souls of departed Catholics? I don't know what your church does in this regard, but I have yet to encounter any Catholic church where this is not a standard practice.

I think a number of churches accept such offerings, why do you believe that the pope grants indulgences for such?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Wikipedia is not a credible source, any anti-Catholic can post information there. If they disagree you have my permission to post my words on Jerome.

Catholics, as well as everyone else, has the opportunity to correct any errors that they see, provided that they supply references from other sources for their changes. If you take umbrage with anything about the Wikipedia entry concerning Jerome you have the opportunity to change the entry - but only if you back up your claims. That is why there is a bibliography at the end of the article. The article ought to be the beginning of one's effort to understand a topic, not the final answer. Please tell us precisely what you find erroneous in the Wikipedia article and cite objective sources for your opinion. As it now stands, all we have to go on is your opinion.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think a number of churches accept such offerings, why do you believe that the pope grants indulgences for such?

Um. Could it be because masses for the dead serve the purpose of lessening the suffering of the dead in Purgatory?

 

[Albion]

Does the Catholic Church still accept financial offerings for masses to be said for the souls of departed Catholics?

I am going to quote your post here rather than another member's reply to it, which IMO altered the meaning.

It's not a question of indulgences but, as the following explains, masses are said for the souls in Purgatory and it is "customary" for the person making the request to make a financial contribution unless he pleads that he cannot afford it. (This is the way it has long been done in the RCC).

5 Things You Need To Know About 'Offering A Mass' For A Loved One - Living Faith - Home & Family - News - Catholic Online

 

[Valletta]

Catholics, as well as everyone else, has the opportunity to correct any errors that they see, provided that they supply references from other sources for their changes. If you take umbrage with anything about the Wikipedia entry concerning Jerome you have the opportunity to change the entry - but only if you back up your claims. That is why there is a bibliography at the end of the article. The article ought to be the beginning of one's effort to understand a topic, not the final answer. Please tell us precisely what you find erroneous in the Wikipedia article and cite objective sources for your opinion. As it now stands, all we have to go on is your opinion.

If you find something you think contradicts what I said by all means post it here and I will be glad to address it. In fact groups in Wikipedia can dominate postings, so it is not reliable for anything where there are strong contradictory opinions. I recommend reading the actual writings of various saints and other Church figures.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am going to quote your post here rather than another member's reply to it, which IMO altered the meaning.

It's not a question of indulgences but, as the following explains, masses are said for the souls in Purgatory and it is "customary" for the person making the request to make a financial contribution unless he pleads that he cannot afford it. (This is the way it has long been done in the RCC).

5 Things You Need To Know About 'Offering A Mass' For A Loved One - Living Faith - Home & Family - News - Catholic Online

Thank you. That has been my understanding, as well.