Purgatory

[Major1]

Augustine was all over the chart theologically. For most of his life he was a strict monergist. The RCC has soundly rejected his monergism. As a matter of interest, the current RCC has soundly rejected its historic teaching regarding "purgatorial torments" which means that it now also rejects Augustine's view.

It is the same with everything. Pick what is said that you like, throw away all the rest and hope no one else has a computer with "google search" in it.

 

[Major1]

The angels first recorded in Isaiah 6 crying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!" Centuries later, in Revelation, the four living creatures are recorded as follows, "Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”

If that's good enough for the angels, works for me.

Προσκυνοῦμεν Πατέρα, καὶ τὸν τούτου Υἱόν τε, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα, τὴν Ἁγίαν Τριάδα, ἐν μιᾷ τῇ οὐσίᾳ, σὺν τοῖς Σεραφείμ, κράζοντες τό· Ἅγιος, Ἅγιος, Ἅγιος εἶ, Κύριε.

We bow down in worship to the Father and His Son and the Holy Spirit, the Holy Trinity, one in essence; and we cry aloud with the Seraphim: Holy, Holy, Holy are You, O Lord.

I would respectfully suggest that there is more to your comment than you posted.

The number 3 in Scripture is very important......as are most numbers.

The number three in the scriptures denotes emphasis, reinforce or strengthen the message. For example Peter's three denials to Jesus. (Mat.26:34,75) And Peter's three-fold vision instructions emphasized to him not to doubt but go ahead, to kill and eat unholy and unclean animals according to the Law. (Acts 10:9-16)

Matthew 26:34,75 (NASB)
"Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you that this very night before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.”75 And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, “Before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly."

Acts 10:9-16 (NASB)
"On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11 and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13 A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15 Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” 16 This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky

Holy, Holy, Holy,( Isaiah 6:3, Rev. 4:8)

Isaiah 6:3 (NASB)
"And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.

Revelation 4:8 (NASB)
"And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within, and day and night [a]they do not cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.”

So the fact that the heavenly creatures, Seraph, repeat Holy, Holy, Holy, emphasize the Superlative Holiness and the Glory of the Lord of the heavens and is just not repetitive prayers.

 

[Valletta]

When I read through the contents of my Bible, I do not see the Book Of Augustine.

I agree actually with his comment thought of.....
"children would not have to suffer "purgatorial torments."

How could a child or for that matter anyone suffer in a situation that does not exist?????

Since there is NO such thing or place as Purgatory, then no one has or ever will suffer in Purgatory.

However.....if man/woman old enough to make a conscious choice and chooses Satan over Christ, then that person will spend their eternity in the Lake of Fire beginning at their death.

You can read that Bible fact in the book of Luke chapter 16 where God Himself tells us about the condition of the eternally lost.

Then why did you post a quotation from Augustine? As to purgatory, as I said it is simply a word for the purification before Heaven spoken of in the Bible. Catholics believe the Bible is the Word of God.

 

[Albion]

Then why did you post a quotation from Augustine?

Because you have told us that the lack of any reference to Purgatory (by either name or concept) in the Bible doesn't settle the matter for you.

As to purgatory, as I said it is simply a word for the purification before Heaven spoken of in the Bible.

...which means that the other way it was taught by your church for over 500 years, when "Purgatory" actually meant purging (from sin) and a long list of other characteristics and functions as defined by your church plays no part in your thinking about the subject?

I think we are somewhat perplexed when any Catholic advances the idea that the church which says it never changes can just change its supposedly infallible doctrines at will and that's thought to be normal.

 

[Major1]

Then why did you post a quotation from Augustine? As to purgatory, as I said it is simply a word for the purification before Heaven spoken of in the Bible. Catholics believe the Bible is the Word of God.

See post #224!

 

[bbbbbbb]

Because you have told us that the lack of any reference to Purgatory (by either name or concept) in the Bible doesn't settle the matter for you.


...which means that the other way it was taught by your church for over 500 years, when "Purgatory" actually meant purging (from sin) and a long list of other characteristics and functions as defined by your church plays no part in your thinking about the subject?

I think we are somewhat perplexed when any Catholic advances the idea that the church which says it never changes can just change its supposedly infallible doctrines at will and that's thought to be normal.

As I pointed out in my earlier post, it appears quite counterproductive to quote Augustine on this subject when his apparent view completely contradicts the present position of the RCC.

 

[Major1]

As I pointed out in my earlier post, it appears quite counterproductive to quote Augustine on this subject when his apparent view completely contradicts the present position of the RCC.

Hence the problem when speaking to those people who can only post RCC apologetic web sites. No independent or logical thought.

 

[Fidelibus]

Hence the problem when speaking to those people who can only post RCC apologetic web sites. No independent or logical thought.

Really? Not a single non-Catholic poster is going to call this guy out on this post? Wow!!! Anyone that been around this forum long enough knows that this fella has been called out numerous times for copy and pasting repeatedly his anti Catholic and other talking points without citing it's source. And he has the sand accusing Catholics for lack of "independent or logical" thoughts??? Is the word "hypocrisy" in order here? If it wasn't so hypocritical, it would almost be funny.

 

[concretecamper]

Really? Not a single non-Catholic poster is going to call this guy out on this post?

I'm enjoying the trio's high fives and back slapping. This ain't the first time, but it is one of the best.

 

[Valletta]

Really? Not a single non-Catholic poster is going to call this guy out on this post? Wow!!! Anyone that been around this forum long enough knows that this fella has been called out numerous times for copy and pasting repeatedly his anti Catholic and other talking points without citing it's source. And he has the sand accusing Catholics for lack of "independent or logical" thoughts??? Is the word "hypocrisy" in order here? If it wasn't so hypocritical, it would almost be funny.

Baiting is not supposed to be allowed yet there it is. Obviously he is just repeating the same refuted arguments and added some name calling. It is so ridiculous, here the accusation is that Saint Augustine supposedly disagrees with Catholic teaching yet Catholics are accused of not looking at things independently--the argument is refuted without need of a Catholic to step in.

 

[Albion]

Really? Not a single non-Catholic poster is going to call this guy out on this post? Wow!!! Anyone that been around this forum long enough knows that this fella has been called out numerous times for copy and pasting repeatedly his anti Catholic and other talking points without citing it's source.

Since you ask...

I, for one, do not feel good about entering into a discussion with anybody who has played the "anti-Catholic" card simply because another has disagreed with him. So that's the answer to your question.

The use of "non-Catholic" barely passes the smell test, but not "anti-Catholic." I'd say the same of calling someone here using "anti-Methodist" or "non-Methodist," etc. but you may have noticed that this is virtually never done by anyone, unlike that which I'm referring to.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sticking with the facts. The quotation provided from Augustine indicates quite clearly the fact of the "torments of Purgation". If, in fact, as current Catholics aver, Purgatory is hardly much more than a refreshing shower, surely this view is in direct contradiction with that of Augustine.

 

[parousia70]

Sticking with the facts. The quotation provided from Augustine indicates quite clearly the fact of the "torments of Purgation". If, in fact, as current Catholics aver, Purgatory is hardly much more than a refreshing shower, surely this view is in direct contradiction with that of Augustine.

If your position is that it doesn't exist, why do you even care whether its a refining fire or a refreshing shower? when you Argue that it's not one but the other, it renders your claim that it doesn't exist, moot.

Do you also get mad when Santa Claus is played by a black man?

 

[parousia70]

Is the word "hypocrisy" in order here? If it wasn't so hypocritical, it would almost be funny.

The thing about Hypocrites, is that they aren't ashamed when you point out their hypocrisy.

They don't care. In fact I think they celebrate it.

 

[Albion]

If your position is that it doesn't exist, why do you even care whether its a refining fire or a refreshing shower?

Of course, it doesn't matter if it doesn't exist--except that this is a discussion board and there are people attempting to "prove" that the church which invented the mythical place did so because it's in the Bible or it has always been taught by the Christian churches, neither of which is true.

 

[parousia70]

Of course, it doesn't matter if it doesn't exist--except that this is a discussion board and there are people attempting to "prove" that the church which invented the mythical place did so because it's in the Bible or it has always been taught by the Christian churches, neither of which is true.

I still stand by my original offering on page 2 in this thread, which has yet to be refuted:

All you have to do is ask yourself if you believe 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 is fulfilled or not?

If you assert it remains unfulfilled, then you MUST become Roman Catholic on the doctrine of Purgatory, for the Hades of 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 does not become part of Hell until Revelation 20:12-15

 

[Albion]

I still stand by my original offering on page 2 in this thread, which has yet to be refuted:

All you have to do is ask yourself if you believe 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 is fulfilled or not?

If you assert it remains unfulfilled, then you MUST become Roman Catholic on the doctrine of Purgatory, for the Hades of 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 does not become part of Hell until Revelation 20:12-15

That probably is a good place to leave this, I agree. Even though it doesn't come close to answering any of the the questions about a Purgatory which have been discussed here.

 

[parousia70]

That probably is a good place to leave this, I agree. Even though it doesn't come close to answering any of the the questions about a Purgatory which have been discussed here.

Sure...It's one thing to debate what goes on in Hades/Sheol/Purgatorio, it's completely another to claim that place no longer exists as the pre Resurrection- pre Judgment holding place for souls.

 

[Valletta]

Of course, it doesn't matter if it doesn't exist--except that this is a discussion board and there are people attempting to "prove" that the church which invented the mythical place did so because it's in the Bible or it has always been taught by the Christian churches, neither of which is true.

2 Maccabees, which implies purgatory, was included in every Bible from the time the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in the 300s up until "reformation" times.

 

[parousia70]

2 Maccabees, which implies purgatory, was included in every Bible from the time the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in the 300s up until "reformation" times.

We Don't even Need 2 Maccabees when we have the implication spelled out in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.