Purgatory

[bbbbbbb]

If you find something you think contradicts what I said by all means post it here and I will be glad to address it. In fact groups in Wikipedia can dominate postings, so it is not reliable for anything where there are strong contradictory opinions. I recommend reading the actual writings of various saints and other Church figures.

Very well, this is not my opinion, but my source is the previous Wikipedia article cited.

For the next 15 years, until he died, Jerome produced a number of commentaries on Scripture, often explaining his translation choices in using the original Hebrew rather than suspect translations. His patristic commentaries align closely with Jewish tradition, and he indulges in allegorical and mystical subtleties after the manner of Philo and the Alexandrian school. Unlike his contemporaries, he emphasizes the difference between the Hebrew Bible "Apocrypha" and the Hebraica veritas of the protocanonical books. In his Vulgate's prologues, he describes some portions of books in the Septuagint that were not found in the Hebrew as being non-canonical (he called them apocrypha);[27] for Baruch, he mentions by name in his Prologue to Jeremiah and notes that it is neither read nor held among the Hebrews, but does not explicitly call it apocryphal or "not in the canon".[28] His Preface to The Books of Samuel and Kings[29] includes the following statement, commonly called the Helmeted Preface:

This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a "helmeted" introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is not found in our list must be placed amongst the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus, the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees I have found to be Hebrew, the second is Greek, as can be proved from the very style.

Although Jerome was once suspicious of the Apocrypha, it is said that he later viewed them as Scripture. For example, in Jerome's letter to Eustochium he quotes Sirach 13:2;[30] elsewhere Jerome also refers to Baruch, the Story of Susannah and Wisdom as scripture.

Please provide something other than your opinion to support your conclusion.

 

[Major1]

I always find it curious that the Treasury of St. Peter is infinite in its extent and is more than able to extract each and every Catholic from Purgatory, but the Pope is exceedingly stingy in limiting the infinite mercies of God and doles out the indulgences only to those Catholics who do something (usually paying for masses, but other good works as well) to merit the indulgences.

Is God really so stingy in His grace and mercy?

God isn't, but the RCC...........?

 

[bbbbbbb]

God isn't, but the RCC...........?

I praise God constantly for the riches of His grace and mercy through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Valletta]

Very well, this is not my opinion, but my source is the previous Wikipedia article cited.

For the next 15 years, until he died, Jerome produced a number of commentaries on Scripture, often explaining his translation choices in using the original Hebrew rather than suspect translations. His patristic commentaries align closely with Jewish tradition, and he indulges in allegorical and mystical subtleties after the manner of Philo and the Alexandrian school. Unlike his contemporaries, he emphasizes the difference between the Hebrew Bible "Apocrypha" and the Hebraica veritas of the protocanonical books. In his Vulgate's prologues, he describes some portions of books in the Septuagint that were not found in the Hebrew as being non-canonical (he called them apocrypha);[27] for Baruch, he mentions by name in his Prologue to Jeremiah and notes that it is neither read nor held among the Hebrews, but does not explicitly call it apocryphal or "not in the canon".[28] His Preface to The Books of Samuel and Kings[29] includes the following statement, commonly called the Helmeted Preface:

This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a "helmeted" introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is not found in our list must be placed amongst the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus, the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees I have found to be Hebrew, the second is Greek, as can be proved from the very style.

Although Jerome was once suspicious of the Apocrypha, it is said that he later viewed them as Scripture. For example, in Jerome's letter to Eustochium he quotes Sirach 13:2;[30] elsewhere Jerome also refers to Baruch, the Story of Susannah and Wisdom as scripture.

Please provide something other than your opinion to support your conclusion.

Jerome did not finish work on the Latin Vulgate until sometime from 402 A.D. to 405 A.D. Jerome did use some Hebrew texts and brought in some Rabbis to assist. ( As superb of a translator as he was, it is easy to go wrong when translating a Hebrew idiom, which is a problem in Protestant circles to this day.) Jews disagreed as to what was constituted Holy Scripture during the time of Jesus. Later, a group of Jews had rejected not just the Gospels and other NT books, but even OT books that support additional Catholic teaching. The debate about what books should go in the Bible had spanned centuries, and was formally settled at the Councils of Hippo (393 A.D.) and Carthage (397 A.D.) Pope Innocent I wrote a letter to the Bishop of Toulouse in 405 A.D. re-affirming those same 73 books we use today. In 402 A.D. Jerome wrote the following:
"What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the Story of Susanna, the Song of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I was not relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us. (Against Rufinus, 11:33)

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jerome did not finish work on the Latin Vulgate until sometime from 402 A.D. to 405 A.D. Jerome did use some Hebrew texts and brought in some Rabbis to assist. ( As superb of a translator as he was, it is easy to go wrong when translating a Hebrew idiom, which is a problem in Protestant circles to this day.) Jews disagreed as to what was constituted Holy Scripture during the time of Jesus. Later, a group of Jews had rejected not just the Gospels and other NT books, but even OT books that support additional Catholic teaching. The debate about what books should go in the Bible had spanned centuries, and was formally settled at the Councils of Hippo (393 A.D.) and Carthage (397 A.D.) Pope Innocent I wrote a letter to the Bishop of Toulouse in 405 A.D. re-affirming those same 73 books we use today. In 402 A.D. Jerome wrote the following:
"What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the Story of Susanna, the Song of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I was not relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us. (Against Rufinus, 11:33)

Would you kindly provide the source of this information?

 

[Valletta]

Would you kindly provide the source of this information?

Is there something in particular you question? That information is from a variety of sources and might take me some time to locate a particular source. As to when Jerome finished I have seen conflicting years but all within that time range as I recall.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Is there something in particular you question? That information is from a variety of sources and might take me some time to locate a particular source. As to when Jerome finished I have seen conflicting years but all within that time range as I recall.

I am left wondering whether this is a form of apologetics of the RCC or is from an unbiased historic source.

 

[Valletta]

I am left wondering whether this is a form of apologetics of the RCC or is from an unbiased historic source.

The actual quotation I provided from Jerome shows that you were mistaken. I always urge people to read the writings of those from the early Church for themselves rather than getting information from some website. As to the dates, I didn't know that was a matter of contention. If someone said Jerome finished up his translation outside of the range I proved then let me know.

 

[Major1]

The actual quotation I provided from Jerome shows that you were mistaken. I always urge people to read the writings of those from the early Church for themselves rather than getting information from some website. As to the dates, I didn't know that was a matter of contention. If someone said Jerome finished up his translation outside of the range I proved then let me know.

Aphrahat (270-345),
“For when men die, the animal spirit is buried with the body, and sense is taken away from it, but the heavenly spirit that they receive goes according to its nature to Christ. And both these the Apostle has made known, for he said:–The body is buried in animal wise, and rises again in spiritual wise. The Spirit goes back again to Christ according to its nature, for the Apostle said again:–When we shall depart from the body we shall be with our Lord. For the Spirit of Christ, which the spiritual receive, goes to our Lord . . . But our faith thus teaches, that when men fall asleep, they sleep this slumber without knowing good from evil. And the righteous look not forward to their promises, nor do the wicked look forward to their sentence of punishment, until the Judge come and separate those whose place is at His right hand from those whose place is at His left .
(Demonstrations, 6:14, 8:20, 8:22-23, 22:9).

Augustine (354-430),
“And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it.” (The Enchiridion, 69).

Polycarp (69-150), “ . . .
"This do in the assurance that all these have not run in vain, but in faith and righteousness, and that they are now in their due place in the presence of the Lord, with whom also they suffered. For they loved not this present world, but Him who died for us, and for our sakes was raised again by God from the dead.”
(The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, 9).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Aphrahat (270-345),
“For when men die, the animal spirit is buried with the body, and sense is taken away from it, but the heavenly spirit that they receive goes according to its nature to Christ. And both these the Apostle has made known, for he said:–The body is buried in animal wise, and rises again in spiritual wise. The Spirit goes back again to Christ according to its nature, for the Apostle said again:–When we shall depart from the body we shall be with our Lord. For the Spirit of Christ, which the spiritual receive, goes to our Lord . . . But our faith thus teaches, that when men fall asleep, they sleep this slumber without knowing good from evil. And the righteous look not forward to their promises, nor do the wicked look forward to their sentence of punishment, until the Judge come and separate those whose place is at His right hand from those whose place is at His left .
(Demonstrations, 6:14, 8:20, 8:22-23, 22:9).

Augustine (354-430),
“And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it.” (The Enchiridion, 69).

Polycarp (69-150), “ . . .
"This do in the assurance that all these have not run in vain, but in faith and righteousness, and that they are now in their due place in the presence of the Lord, with whom also they suffered. For they loved not this present world, but Him who died for us, and for our sakes was raised again by God from the dead.”
(The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, 9).

Thank you!

 

[parousia70]

Very well. It is good to pray, even unceasingly. No one is arguing against that.

@bbbbbbb was

No examples of...what? Of good deeds?

Examples of this, which I understood you to be asking if I agreed with what you wrote:

In those churches which teach "works righteousness," the belief is that doing good deeds does enhance the person's chances of getting to heaven.

Can list a few of these churches with links to their officially teaching this?

 

[Albion]

@bbbbbbb was

I don't believe that he did. I see where he said that mindless rote recitations were not good, but he differentiated that from prayer.

Can list a few of these churches with links to their officially teaching this?

All the Catholic churches hold to that view.

Still, the term and the meaning are easily misunderstood. This article does a good job of explaining things:

Faith and Work Vs. Works Righteousness (tifwe.org)

 

[bbbbbbb]

@bbbbbbb was

Examples of this, which I understood you to be asking if I agreed with what you wrote:

Can list a few of these churches with links to their officially teaching this?

Really? Did I? i was attempting to point out the worthlessness of vain repetitions of words. Saying prayers over and over and over again ad nauseum is not the same as actually praying.

 

[Valletta]

Aphrahat (270-345),
“For when men die, the animal spirit is buried with the body, and sense is taken away from it, but the heavenly spirit that they receive goes according to its nature to Christ. And both these the Apostle has made known, for he said:–The body is buried in animal wise, and rises again in spiritual wise. The Spirit goes back again to Christ according to its nature, for the Apostle said again:–When we shall depart from the body we shall be with our Lord. For the Spirit of Christ, which the spiritual receive, goes to our Lord . . . But our faith thus teaches, that when men fall asleep, they sleep this slumber without knowing good from evil. And the righteous look not forward to their promises, nor do the wicked look forward to their sentence of punishment, until the Judge come and separate those whose place is at His right hand from those whose place is at His left .
(Demonstrations, 6:14, 8:20, 8:22-23, 22:9).

Augustine (354-430),
“And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it.” (The Enchiridion, 69).

Polycarp (69-150), “ . . .
"This do in the assurance that all these have not run in vain, but in faith and righteousness, and that they are now in their due place in the presence of the Lord, with whom also they suffered. For they loved not this present world, but Him who died for us, and for our sakes was raised again by God from the dead.”
(The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, 9).

Saint Augustine also put forth the idea that children would not have to suffer "purgatorial torments.": "But such is God's mercy towards the vessels of mercy which He has prepared for glory, that even the first age of man, that is, infancy, which submits without any resistance to the flesh, and the second age, which is called boyhood, and which has not yet understanding enough to undertake this warfare, and therefore yields to almost every vicious pleasure (because though this age has the power of speech, and may therefore seem to have passed infancy, the mind is still too weak to comprehend the commandment), yet if either of these ages has received the sacraments of the Mediator, then, although the present life be immediately brought to an end, the child, having been translated from the power of darkness to the kingdom of Christ, shall not only be saved from eternal punishments, but shall not even suffer purgatorial torments after death." City of God 21:16

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Really? Did I? i was attempting to point out the worthlessness of vain repetitions of words. Saying prayers over and over and over again ad nauseum is not the same as actually praying.

The angels first recorded in Isaiah 6 crying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!" Centuries later, in Revelation, the four living creatures are recorded as follows, "Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”

If that's good enough for the angels, works for me.

Προσκυνοῦμεν Πατέρα, καὶ τὸν τούτου Υἱόν τε, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα, τὴν Ἁγίαν Τριάδα, ἐν μιᾷ τῇ οὐσίᾳ, σὺν τοῖς Σεραφείμ, κράζοντες τό· Ἅγιος, Ἅγιος, Ἅγιος εἶ, Κύριε.

We bow down in worship to the Father and His Son and the Holy Spirit, the Holy Trinity, one in essence; and we cry aloud with the Seraphim: Holy, Holy, Holy are You, O Lord.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Saint Augustine also put forth the idea that children would not have to suffer "purgatorial torments.": "But such is God's mercy towards the vessels of mercy which He has prepared for glory, that even the first age of man, that is, infancy, which submits without any resistance to the flesh, and the second age, which is called boyhood, and which has not yet understanding enough to undertake this warfare, and therefore yields to almost every vicious pleasure (because though this age has the power of speech, and may therefore seem to have passed infancy, the mind is still too weak to comprehend the commandment), yet if either of these ages has received the sacraments of the Mediator, then, although the present life be immediately brought to an end, the child, having been translated from the power of darkness to the kingdom of Christ, shall not only be saved from eternal punishments, but shall not even suffer purgatorial torments after death." City of God 21:16

Augustine was all over the chart theologically. For most of his life he was a strict monergist. The RCC has soundly rejected his monergism. As a matter of interest, the current RCC has soundly rejected its historic teaching regarding "purgatorial torments" which means that it now also rejects Augustine's view.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The angels first recorded in Isaiah 6 crying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!" Centuries later, in Revelation, the four living creatures are recorded as follows, "Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”

If that's good enough for the angels, works for me.

Προσκυνοῦμεν Πατέρα, καὶ τὸν τούτου Υἱόν τε, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα, τὴν Ἁγίαν Τριάδα, ἐν μιᾷ τῇ οὐσίᾳ, σὺν τοῖς Σεραφείμ, κράζοντες τό· Ἅγιος, Ἅγιος, Ἅγιος εἶ, Κύριε.

We bow down in worship to the Father and His Son and the Holy Spirit, the Holy Trinity, one in essence; and we cry aloud with the Seraphim: Holy, Holy, Holy are You, O Lord.

Works for me, too. However, when I hear folks saying things like, "Oh God!" or ""[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" or "Jesus Christ" or even "Holy [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" or "Holy Mother of God" I cringe (to say the very least).

 

[Major1]

Saint Augustine also put forth the idea that children would not have to suffer "purgatorial torments.": "But such is God's mercy towards the vessels of mercy which He has prepared for glory, that even the first age of man, that is, infancy, which submits without any resistance to the flesh, and the second age, which is called boyhood, and which has not yet understanding enough to undertake this warfare, and therefore yields to almost every vicious pleasure (because though this age has the power of speech, and may therefore seem to have passed infancy, the mind is still too weak to comprehend the commandment), yet if either of these ages has received the sacraments of the Mediator, then, although the present life be immediately brought to an end, the child, having been translated from the power of darkness to the kingdom of Christ, shall not only be saved from eternal punishments, but shall not even suffer purgatorial torments after death." City of God 21:16

When I read through the contents of my Bible, I do not see the Book Of Augustine.

I agree actually with his comment thought of.....
"children would not have to suffer "purgatorial torments."

How could a child or for that matter anyone suffer in a situation that does not exist?????

Since there is NO such thing or place as Purgatory, then no one has or ever will suffer in Purgatory.

However.....if man/woman old enough to make a conscious choice and chooses Satan over Christ, then that person will spend their eternity in the Lake of Fire beginning at their death.

You can read that Bible fact in the book of Luke chapter 16 where God Himself tells us about the condition of the eternally lost.

 

[Major1]

Thank you!

I usually get a love offering for such help and you can call me at BR 549!

 

[Major1]

Works for me, too. However, when I hear folks saying things like, "Oh God!" or ""[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" or "Jesus Christ" or even "Holy [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" or "Holy Mother of God" I cringe (to say the very least).

Agree! I always tend to try and get at least 10 feet away from that person so that when the flame falls on them only my hair will get shinged. (S or C ???? = burned)