What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

[chevyontheriver]

Hi and in Luke 1:47 we read , And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR !!

The Greek word MY / MOV is in the Greek GENITIVE CASE , indicates POSSESSION of God !!

The Greek word SAVIOUR / SOTER is in the the DATIVE CASE means that the INDERCT OBJECT , means that God is involved as Mary's SAVIOUR !

Which means that MARY needs to be saved and was a SINNER !!

dan p

Dan,
If it were that simple do you not think that Catholics would have heard of that already? Every priest, bishop, cardinal, and pope, as well as a big chunk of the laity recite the Magnificat EVERY day. We know by heart that Mary needed and had a savior. We know God saved Mary. We know Mary needed to be saved. And yet we still say Mary was sinless.

Here's how: There is a distinction between saving someone who has fallen and saving someone who is about to fall. Someone who has fallen needs to be picked up. Someone who has not fallen does not need to be picked up. But they may need to be guided around the dangerous spot where others have fallen. They still need to be saved. They just haven't fallen.

So your 'proof' that Mary was a sinner really only proves she was saved. But Catholics already knew that from the Bible. And we still say she was sinless. Saved from being a sinner.

 

[Cis.jd]

Hi and in Luke 1:47 we read , And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR !!

The Greek word MY / MOV is in the Greek GENITIVE CASE , indicates POSSESSION of God !!

The Greek word SAVIOUR / SOTER is in the the DATIVE CASE means that the INDERCT OBJECT , means that God is involved as Mary's SAVIOUR !

Which means that MARY needs to be saved and was a SINNER !!

dan p

but savior can also apply because of something being prevented, not necessarily cured.

For ex: You are about to get hit by a bus but someone pushes you out of harms way vs you got hit by a bus but someone comes in and resuscitates you. Who is your savior in these scenarios, is it not both?

 

[The Liturgist]

Roman Catholics with Eastern Orothdox

To my knowledge the Eastern Orthodox reject purgatory.

 

[Cis.jd]

To my knowledge the Eastern Orthodox reject purgatory.

We both believe there is something or some place before Heaven and Hell.

 

[chevyontheriver]

To my knowledge the Eastern Orthodox reject purgatory.

We both pray for the dead. Catholics think they know why. The Jews also pray for the dead.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

but savior can also apply because of something being prevented, not necessarily cured.

For ex: You are about to get hit by a bus but someone pushes you out of harms way vs you got hit by a bus but someone comes in and resuscitates you. Who is your savior in these scenarios, is it not both?

Definition of savior
1: one that saves from danger or destruction
2: one who brings salvation
specifically, capitalized : JESUS sense 1

Luke 1
Mary Praises God
46 Then Mary said,

“I praise the Lord with all my heart.
47 I am very happy because God is my Savior.
48 I am not important,
but he has shown his care for me, his lowly servant.
From now until the end of time,
people will remember how much God blessed me.
49 Yes, the Powerful One has done great things for me.
His name is very holy.
50 He always gives mercy
to those who worship him.
51 He reached out his arm and showed his power.
He scattered those who are proud and think great things about themselves.
52 He brought down rulers from their thrones
and raised up the humble people.
53 He filled the hungry with good things,
but he sent the rich away with nothing.
54 God has helped Israel—the people he chose to serve him.
He did not forget his promise to give us his mercy.
55 He has done what he promised to our ancestors,
to Abraham and his children forever.”

Nothing in the context indicates that Mary is about to fall.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

read to here

 

[Cis.jd]

Definition of savior
1: one that saves from danger or destruction
2: one who brings salvation
specifically, capitalized : JESUS sense 1

Luke 1
Mary Praises God
46 Then Mary said,

“I praise the Lord with all my heart.
47 I am very happy because God is my Savior.
48 I am not important,
but he has shown his care for me, his lowly servant.
From now until the end of time,
people will remember how much God blessed me.
49 Yes, the Powerful One has done great things for me.
His name is very holy.
50 He always gives mercy
to those who worship him.
51 He reached out his arm and showed his power.
He scattered those who are proud and think great things about themselves.
52 He brought down rulers from their thrones
and raised up the humble people.
53 He filled the hungry with good things,
but he sent the rich away with nothing.
54 God has helped Israel—the people he chose to serve him.
He did not forget his promise to give us his mercy.
55 He has done what he promised to our ancestors,
to Abraham and his children forever.”

Nothing in the context indicates that Mary is about to fall.

Nothing in the context indicates she fell either.. or that God is secluded to the 2nd meaning of the definition of Savior.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Nothing in the context indicates she fell either.. or that God is secluded to the 2nd meaning of the definition of Savior.

Friend, you are committing a well know word study fallacy. Reading a meaning into the text that is not there. Jehovah's Witnesses do the same thing by reading the meaning of one from John 17 into John 10 --- thus denying they are one in nature.

Context is King.

 

[Fidelibus]

Friend, you are committing a well know word study fallacy.

By who's or what authority do you go to make this claim?

Reading a meaning into the text that is not there.

Again, to who's or what authority did you go to before making this claim? Maybe your own? Also, do you claim that your interpretation and or understanding of that Scripture passage absolute and without error?


Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Cis.jd]

Friend, you are committing a well know word study fallacy. Reading a meaning into the text that is not there. Jehovah's Witnesses do the same thing by reading the meaning of one from John 17 into John 10 --- thus denying they are one in nature.

Context is King.

I'm sorry but I don't understand your actual stance. Are you saying I am wrong that Mary was saved by God in terms of the prevention argument or were you in agreement?

 

[Albion]

Nothing in the context indicates she fell either.

She says explicitly that SHE herself has or needs a Savior. A sinless person would not need one.

However, you could contend that she only assumed (and wrongly) that she had erred.

But Mary was a mortal like all of us, so in the absence of any indication that she was alone among humanity in being sinless at all times, she must be understood to have sinned as we all do.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Nothing in the context indicates she fell either.. or that God is secluded to the 2nd meaning of the definition of Savior.

He said, if you will note, "Nothing in the context indicates that Mary is about to fall."

He might be AGREEING with you. Please figure out if that is so before going on.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

By who's or what authority do you go to make this claim?




Again, to who's or what authority did you go to before making this claim? Maybe your own? Also, do you claim that your interpretation and or understanding of that Scripture passage absolute and without error?


Have a Blessed Day!

That Fallacy has even been noticed by Catholic Scholars and there is a good book on the topic too.

Exegetical Fallacies
books.google.com › books

D. A. Carson · 1996


word study fallacies Catholic Scholars

About 1,030,000 results (0.60 seconds)

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https://gracebibleinstitutefrederick.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/d-a-carson-word-study-fallacies.pdf

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I'm sorry but I don't understand your actual stance. Are you saying I am wrong that Mary was saved by God in terms of the prevention argument or were you in agreement?

True, post biblical Christians believe she was without sin. But, is that really biblical? I am only exploring the topic, not arguing she was a sinner. When I see a faulty argument, I will point it out on both sides.

"But they say: He is not condemned; because the statement that all sinned in Adam, was not made because of the sin which is derived from one's birth, but because of imitation of him. If, therefore, Adam is said to be the author of all the sins which followed his own, because he was the first sinner of the human race, then how is it that Abel, rather than Christ, is not placed at the head of all the righteous, because he was the first righteous man? But I am not speaking of the case of an infant. I take the instance of a young man, or an old man, who has died in a region where he could not hear of the name of Christ."
CHURCH FATHERS: On Nature and Grace (St. Augustine)

"His opponents adduced the passage, All have sinned, Romans 3:23 and he met their statement founded on this with the remark that the apostle was manifestly speaking of the then existing generation, that is, the Jews and the Gentiles; but surely the passage which I have quoted, By one man sin entered the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men; in which all have sinned, Romans 5:12 embraces in its terms the generations both of old and of modern times, both ourselves and our posterity. He adduces also this passage, whence he would prove that we ought not to understand all without exception, when all is used:— As by the offense of one, he says, upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One, upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5:18 There can be no doubt, he says, that not all men are sanctified by the righteousness of Christ, but only those who are willing to obey Him, and have been cleansed in the washing of His baptism. Well, but he does not prove what he wants by this quotation."

same link.

Did Mary's Parents have the stain of sin?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

He said, if you will note, "Nothing in the context indicates that Mary is about to fall."

He might be AGREEING with you. Please figure out if that is so before going on.

Thank You friend, I seek to understand all sides to better understand how people think. Overall, I am a historical Christian like Yourself. When I see a poor argument from any side, I will point it out.

 

[concretecamper]

She says explicitly that SHE herself has or needs a Savior

about the billionth time this has been brought up, and about the billionth time Catholics agree.

A sinless person would not need one.

a sinless person DOES need one if you accept Christ saves us all!

However, you could contend that she only assumed (and wrongly) that she had erred.

extremely doubtful.

But Mary was a mortal like all of us

has nothing to do with the question at hand.

so in the absence of any indication that she was alone among humanity in being sinless at all times,

you have plenty of evidence that has been presented on this forum.

she must be understood to have sinned as we all do.

to the minority of Christians maybe, but His Church teaches otherwise.

Definition of savior
1: one that saves from danger or destruction
2: one who brings salvation
specifically, capitalized : JESUS sense 1

doesnt everyone love when someone pulls out modern day dictionaries to interpret scripture.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

about the billionth time this has been brought up, and about the billionth time Catholics agree.
a sinless person DOES need one if you accept Christ saves us all!
extremely doubtful.
has nothing to do with the question at hand.
you have plenty of evidence that has been presented on this forum.
to the minority of Christians maybe, but His Church teaches otherwise.
doesnt everyone love when someone pulls out modern day dictionaries to interpret scripture.

Let's start a reference thread in Bible Study area with links to sources that are useful. I used a modern dictionary because that is all I could find at the time. Thanks Friend, Daniel Marsh

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thank You friend, I seek to understand all sides to better understand how people think. Overall, I am a historical Christian like Yourself. When I see a poor argument from any side, I will point it out.

Well, you are a bit enigmatic. I'm never totally sure how to take you. Good to hear you say you are a historical Christian. But then what exactly is a 'historical Christian'? Somewhere roundabouts Catholic and Orthodox?

 

[Fidelibus]

That Fallacy has even been noticed by Catholic Scholars and there is a good book on the topic too.

Exegetical Fallacies
books.google.com › books

D. A. Carson · 1996


word study fallacies Catholic Scholars

About 1,030,000 results (0.60 seconds)

Exegetical Fallacies: Word Studies, Part 2 - exegetical.toolsexegeticaltools.com › 2016/02/02 › exegetical-fallacies-...
Feb 2, 2016 — HomeExegetical Fallacies: Word Studies, Part 2 ... Since Sandmel's article, scholars have been more judicious in their attempt to find ... Example: Roman Catholic theologian Thomas Groome makes the claim that the NT is far ...

Word-Study Fallacies by Robert Cara - Ligonier Ministrieswww.ligonier.org › learn › articles › word-study-fallacies
Jan 1, 2014 — Before getting to some word-study fallacies, a brief summary of how words ... However, scholarly Greek dictionaries do not give the definition of ...
Missing: Catholic ‎| Must include: Catholic

Word-Study Fallacies - WordPress.comgracebibleinstitutefrederick.files.wordpress.com › d-a-c...
PDF
describe a collection of common fallacies that repeatedly crop up when preachers and others attempt word studies of biblical terms, and to provide some ... although no less a Pauline scholar than C. E. B. Cranfield has argued that v6|0,o<; ... Thomas H. Groome, a noted Roman Catholic authority on. Christian education, in ...

Hebrew and Greek Word-Study Fallacies - McMaster Universitywww.mcmaster.ca › mjtm › documents › MJTM_12.1_...
PDF
are evident in sermons, commentaries, books, and scholarly arti- cles where statements are made about the meanings of biblical words. Each word-study fallacy ...
by BJ Baxter · ‎Cited by 11 · ‎Related articles

exegetical fallacies - The Master's Seminarywww.tms.edu › msj19.1.pdf
PDF
accusation against critical scholars (“To accept the biblical account is now said to be ... 14See Carson, Exegetical Fallacies 25-66 (“Word-Study Fallacies”) for a ... seems to be” (online at www.catholic-legate.com/dialogues/jewsreturn2.html,.
by WD Barrick · ‎Cited by 7 · ‎Related articles

Word-Study Fallacies | Derek E. Radneydradney.wordpress.com › 2010/04/22 › word-study-fal...
Apr 22, 2010 — The root fallacy presupposes that every word actually has a meaning ... we think of top leaders in the Anglican or Roman Catholic Churches ...
Missing: Scholars ‎| Must include: Scholars

Customer reviews: Exegetical Fallacies - Amazon.comwww.amazon.com › product-reviews
Relevant topic written for scholars and not for everyone. ... The first chapter, `Word Study Fallacies', deals with cases which the lay reader, unfamiliar with ... The examples he cites come from arguments made by Catholics and protestants, ...

Avoiding Logical Fallacies in Theologywww.thegospelcoalition.org › blogs › justin-taylor › av...
Sep 12, 2012 — Michael Horton provides some examples of informal logical fallacies, which should be ... “Barth was a liberal,” “Roman Catholics do not believe that salvation is by ... Serious scholars who have actually studied these sources point out that these ... “I think it's because he identifies the 'Word of God' with God's ...

00072 Carson Exegetical Fallacies.pdf - SABDA Mediamedia.sabda.org › alkitab-2 › 00072 Carson Exegetical ...
PDF
9. Introduction 11. 1 Word-Study Fallacies 25 ... Catholic Biblical Quarterly. Christianity ... amples have been taken from New Testament scholarship than Old ...

Eisegesis - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Eisegesis
Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own ... In the field of Biblical exegesis, scholars take great care to avoid eisegesis. ... out-of-context quotations from the Christian Bible to establish a proposition or to ... Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians say that all Protestants engage in ...
Missing: fallacies ‎| Must include: fallacies

https://gracebibleinstitutefrederick.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/d-a-carson-word-study-fallacies.pdf

Sorry, but that's not what I asked. I asked....."By who's or what authority do "YOU" go to make this claim?


And I also noticed you skipped over when I brought up what you said here.....

Reading a meaning into the text that is not there.

And I asked......

"Again, to who's or what authority did you go to before making this claim? Maybe your own? Also, do you claim that your interpretation and or understanding of that Scripture passage absolute and without error?"


Have a Blessed Day!