LDS Mountain Meadows Massacre: John D. Lee was a Scapegoat!

[Ironhold]

I have various Church manuals. Partly from my active time, partly from the Internet, especially from Jullian Assange's page. And what I found there was very revealing to me. Especially as a woman!

So no comment on how the Tanners willingly violated the law and could have lost their ministry because of it?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The fact is that both Mormon and non-Mormon sources say that Joseph "I am the king" Smith had translated the plates. The fact that there is no transcript does not mean that it did not exist. It may be lost, destroyed, lying somewhere undetected. The Kinderhook plate from the museum was also found by chance.

Times and Seasons Volume 4, Number 12
Joseph Smith's Kinderhook Plates
Kinderhook Plates Brought to Joseph Smith Appear to Be a Nineteenth-Century Hoax

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Mormons want non-Mormons and Mormons to spread a particular image of Smith and the Church. It rarely matches the facts. The example of the Kinderhook plates, the Book of Abraham, and the "prophetic gift" of Smith can be seen in the same way as in the periods of Kirtland and Nauvoo.

"
The Egyptians also created statues, using techniques involving pounding, rubbing, sawing, drilling and polishing. Egyptian statues were often made of wood, ivory, limestone, quartzite, gneiss, crystalline sandstone, limestone and granite. The choice of material may have had religious and symbolic significance to the Egyptians.
Egyptian stone vessel making reached its peak during the 6th Dynasty, or roughly 2300–2100 BC. The vessels were needed to hold cosmetic oils and ointments, which were used in daily life and important rituals. The vessels’ thick, stone walls kept the fatty substances in the oils cool and in good condition. Bowls, vases and jars were all made with drills and chasing. Once the vessel was hollowed out and shaped into its final form, the outside was smoothed by an abrasive material such as sand. The vessels were commonly engraved with copper chisels once they were finished, and these engravings often took the form of ropes and nets, common tools in Egyptian society. No matter how beautiful the final, engraved piece turned out, the Egyptians invariably painted the outside with color.

"
History of Engraving Pt1
Brass was known in JS time, not in Biblical Lands.

"The Greeks knew brass as 'oreichalcos', a brilliant and white copper"

Innovations: Brief Early History of Brass

A white cooper was known in Bible times.

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"The Romans were the first to use brass on any significant scale, although the Greeks were well acquainted with it in Aristotle's time (c. 330 B.C.). They knew it as 'oreichalcos', a brilliant-and-white copper, which was made by mixing tin and copper with a special earth called 'calmia' that came originally from the shores of the Black Sea.

...

Brass is frequently mentioned in the English version of the Bible, although so far as the Old Testament is concerned, the word probably referred to copper or bronze. In the New Testament, 'chalkos' means copper or bronze."
60 Centuries of Copper: The Beginnings of Brass

Short Answer: Bible times it was cooper or bronze, Brass was known from the 1700's. Thus any plates made of Brass would be a forgery. Egyptians did not use brass in OT times.




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[Daniel Marsh]

Not one of the three witnesses ever denied what they had seen. As I have shown it is no secret that they seen the plates in a vision. It is not important that Harris waited until the next day to see the plates. He did see them and confirmed that he did. These accusations are frivolous and subjective, probably because there was nothing concrete that could be used.

Saying they saw the plates with "spiritual eyes" not physical is strange.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The Kinderhook Plates
Utah Lighthouse Ministry: Topical Index A-G

 

[He is the way]

There is enough evidence that Smith had translated the records. Own statements, statements from the newspaper, as well as statements of Mormons. If you doubt it, you should remember the song "Turn it off" from the Book of Mormon Musical as a Mormon. Maybe he understands then?

""There is no evidence that the Prophet Joseph Smith ever took up the matter with the Lord, as he did when working with the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham"

From: Kinderhook plates - Wikipedia

 

[He is the way]

Heaven, no! The baptism of the dead has nothing to do with Freemasons, but the endowment does. I once took the trouble to compare some of the texts of the Freemasons in their ritual, with the endowment ceremony. And I discovered many similarities.
One question: Why do Mormons still bwell Jews in their temples today, even though they were forbidden to do so by the World Jewish Congress?

Interestingly enough there is also a comparative text in the Bible of the endowment if you know where to find it. There are also some Jewish converts in the church that are doing work for their ancestors.

 

[He is the way]

None? Then read what was in a Mormon magazine:

Times and Seasons in 1841 (vol. 2, p.482):

Or does it prove there is no time,
Because some watches don't go?
Or prove that Christ was not the Lord
Because that Peter cursed and swore?
Or Book of Mormon not His word
Because denied, by Oliver?

You can see the original as copy in the Book "The Changing World of Mormonism, p. 95.

As I said before in post #241 " I don't care about any mock poem by Joel H. Johnson. I know that Oliver Cowdery did NOT deny his testimony, even though he left the church for ten years. He even reaffirmed it on his death bed."

 

[He is the way]

Since Mrs Tanner is simply republishing historical LDS sources. I give her more weight when it comes to being truthful. Let's face LDS apologetists are not very good at presenting all the data. They are after all trying to write "faith" Promoting literature --- glossing over probems.

We are human, there are bound to be some problems. There was the loss of the manuscript and times when God scolded Joseph Smith. The Bible states:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:6 - 9)

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

We are indeed imperfect people trying to become perfect, but we are all God has to work with. I believe the Tanners were so bent against the church they doctored the documents. Hoffman is in jail for doing the same thing plus killing people.

 

[He is the way]

Saying they saw the plates with "spiritual eyes" not physical is strange.

Strange things happen when angels appear.

 

[LindaBerlin]

Since Mrs Tanner is simply republishing historical LDS sources. I give her more weight when it comes to being truthful. Let's face LDS apologetists are not very good at presenting all the data. They are after all trying to write "faith" Promoting literature --- glossing over probems.

Ms. Tanner is more interested in the truth than the Mormon leadership, who only wants to hear "faith-enhancing" stories. They know that their religion is built on lies. After all, why else would they buy documents in order to make them disappear into the "poison cabinet", as the case of Mark Hoffmann proves?

 

[LindaBerlin]

We are human, there are bound to be some problems. There was the loss of the manuscript and times when God scolded Joseph Smith.

Do you think of the lost 116 pages in Martin Harris's house? His really clever wife had hidden the pages so that Smith would translate this page again to expose him as a swindler and fraudster.
Smith "solved" the problem by "translating" "other" texts, but forgetting some things in their content.

 

[LindaBerlin]

Strange things happen when angels appear.

Except that Joseph "always horny" Smith never saw angels (except maybe, he was "stoned"). Originally there were no angels in the First Vision, and the angel Moroni was originally called Nephi.

 

[LindaBerlin]

So no comment on how the Tanners willingly violated the law and could have lost their ministry because of it?

Strangely, when Mormons hear from someone who criticizes them, they immediately call the courts. We had such a case here in Germany, where the LDS, with flimsy reasons and lies, made a website forced to change its name.
What had happened?
The German website "Mormonentum.de" (it no longer exists) was sued by the Church because of its name "Mormons"; although the Church tells its members to never call themselves Mormons again. They told the court that their "naming/trademark right" had been violated.
In reality, however, it was about taking action against a side of former and critical Mormons.

 

[LindaBerlin]

Saying they saw the plates with "spiritual eyes" not physical is strange.

In any case, this is what various sources say. In my unpublished manuscript on the life and teachings of Joseph Smith, I have worked hard with the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon and found out a few things. Here is an example:

As early as 1835, the beginning of the rift between the two friends and relatives, Joseph Smith Jun. and Oliver Cowdery began to develop. This was due to the relationship of Joseph Smith, who was already married to Emma, which he had with one of his maids, Fanny Alger (then 16 years old), and which he had taken as a second wife in the same year, also before his wife Emma, and Oliver rightly accused him of adultery. On January 21, 1838, he wrote about it to his brother, reiterating his accusations against Joseph Smith Jun., calling the relationship a "dirty, disgusting, dirty affair." For the first time, Oliver Cowdery opposed the "prophet", citing not only the affair with Fanny Alger, but also the fact that Joseph Smith, in his opinion, would care too much about worldly affairs (e..B g. the Kirtland Bank) as the spiritual affairs. This rift, and because Oliver Cowdery had his heart on his tongue, ultimately led to him being expelled on April 12, 1838. The reason for this exclusion was not on the basis of what Oliver Cowdery brought against Joseph Smith Jun., but on the fact that he had been inactive in the Church and was a lawyer against the Church for his clients, because they wanted damages from the Church for their losses in the bankruptcy of Kirtland Bank. (...)
Oliver Cowdery left the church because he rightly felt he had been treated unfairly, and he was also very hurt and upset at the way his allegations against Joseph Smith Jun. had been handled. He finished his law degree, and worked as a lawyer, first in Kirtland, Ohio, then, from 1840 in Tiffin, Ohio, from where he eventually moved to Wisconsin in 1847. Politically, he served in the Democratic Party for which he wanted to run for Congress. But when it became known that he was one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon fraud, he was caricatured in the newspapers and lost the election on which he had placed such high hopes.
A reference in a poem written in Times & Seasons, Volume 2, 482, states that Oliver Cowdery later denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon. He became a member of a Methodist church in Tiffin after his excommunication, and had long since said goodbye to Mormonism. In this Church he served in various callings (Superintendent of the Sunday School and Secretary), and was a recognized member of his Church (D. Michael Quinn: The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, Signature Books, 1994, p.545).
Even during his excommunication, Oliver Cowdery remained in friendly contact with some Mormons. In these letters he lamented above all the intolerance of the church leadership of dissidents, as well as the practice of polygamy (more on this subject later). His desire to be a member of the Mormons again, where he was someone, grew stronger in 1848, and so he traveled to Winter Quarters, Nebraska, to visit and talk to Brigham Voung, the new Mormon prophet after the death of Joseph Smith. On November 12, 1848, after spending hours of interrogation, he was baptized again by Orson Hyde, a Mormon apostle, but did not regain his previous functions. Why did he be braised? Where he never fully reconciled with the Mormons, and many of the Mormons opposed his baptism? The Gospel Herald of November 1, 1849 writes about it:
"You can still see that they never mention Oliver Cowdery as one of them. In truth, he is not a man for them. It was a strange bout of mania that led him to them, and seems to have lasted only a few weeks for him ... in no single moment did they confer any power on him." (Cited in Jerald & Sandra Tanner: Case Against Mormonism, 1968, p.28.)

 

[LindaBerlin]

""There is no evidence that the Prophet Joseph Smith ever took up the matter with the Lord, as he did when working with the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham"

From: Kinderhook plates - Wikipedia

Get it in, bro! Joseph Smith is exposed as a liar, deceiver, and false prophet. And, this Ganev (Jewish word for "rogue") could not translate, either with or without God's help.

 

[LindaBerlin]

Interestingly enough there is also a comparative text in the Bible of the endowment if you know where to find it. There are also some Jewish converts in the church that are doing work for their ancestors.

There are very few Jews who become Mormons. None of them were related to Anne Frank or Simon Wiesenthal.
And the Mormon endowment is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. A lie does not become truer by repeating it all the time. Goebbels was wrong.

 

[LindaBerlin]

As I said before in post #241 " I don't care about any mock poem by Joel H. Johnson. I know that Oliver Cowdery did NOT deny his testimony, even though he left the church for ten years. He even reaffirmed it on his death bed."

The fact that he repeated his "testimony" on the deathbed is LDS propaganda, and nothing proves it

 

[He is the way]

Do you think of the lost 116 pages in Martin Harris's house? His really clever wife had hidden the pages so that Smith would translate this page again to expose him as a swindler and fraudster.
Smith "solved" the problem by "translating" "other" texts, but forgetting some things in their content.

Everyone has an opinion about how and why the 116 pages were lost. In my opinion is that they were lost to teach Joseph Smith and Martin Harris a lesson. A lot of people want to blame Martin's wife and that is there opinion, but it is not necessarily true.

 

[He is the way]

Except that Joseph "always horny" Smith never saw angels (except maybe, he was "stoned"). Originally there were no angels in the First Vision, and the angel Moroni was originally called Nephi.

Of course he must have been stoned and the three witnesses too. Perhaps they invented LSD, that is what must have happened.