LDS Mountain Meadows Massacre: John D. Lee was a Scapegoat!

[He is the way]

Wrong, my dear. They were published in the first issues of the magazine, but not in later editions.
But this is not an isolated case for Mormons. Let's just look at the changes in the various editions of the Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants. Jerold and Sandra Tanner have published many evidence of this in their book "The Changing World of Mormonism," including photocopies of the first editions. Here is just an example:

Mosiah 21:28. In this verse the name of the king has been changed from Benjamin to Mosiah. In the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon we read: "... king Benjamin had a gift from God, whereby he could interpret such engravings ..." (Book of Mormon, 1830 ed., p.200).
In modern editions of the Book of Mormon, this verse has changed to read: "... king Mosiah had a gift from God, whereby he could interpret such "It's a great way to get there. (Book of Mormon, 1981 ed., p.188, v.28)

Interestingly, many changes were made to the pretext of the Book of Mormon.
In previous editions, Joseph Smith was mentioned only as an author and editor, and in later editions only as an editor.
It was also secretly removed in the preliminary text that the Indians are the descendants of the Israelites, as well as slight changes to the testimony of the three and eight witnesses. You can see it well when you compare the 1830 edition with that of today.
By the way, Mormons also have something to say about the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon. In a mock poem about Oliver Cowdery, published in the "Times and seasons, vol 2, page 482". According to the poem, Cowdery had denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon. And the other two witnesses? Martin Harris and David Whitmer?

David Whitmer:

If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them.' In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness. I had been striving with them for a long time to show them the errors into which they were drifting, and for my labors I received only persecutions."
Source: AN ADRESS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST, p. 27

Martin Harris:

"... I have never seen the golden plates, only in a visionary or foggy state ... After about three days I went into the forest to pray so that I could see the plates. As I prayed, I fell into a state of fog, and in this state I saw the angel and the plates" (Anthony Metcalf: Ten Years Before the Mast, not dated, microfilm copy, p.70f.).

Stephen Burnett, a former Mormon leader, wrote a letter on April 15, 1838, recounting how he heard Martin Harris publicly say that he had seen the Golden Plates only visionarily, and therefore hesitated to sign the statement, but was persuaded to do so by Joseph Smith and the other witnesses. (Stephen Burnett: Letter in Joseph Smith Papers, Letter Book. Copy and typed transcript in the documents in the office of the Institute of Religious Research.)
David Whitmer later testified that he saw the translators in a vision. When Martin Harris was later asked if he had seen the Golden Plates and touched them, he said that he had seen everything with his "spiritual" eyes (Wilford C. Wood, Joseph Smith Begins His Work, Volume 1, 1958, Introduction. It is a photomechanical reprint of the first edition [1830] of the Book of Mormon.
So all three witnesses testified that they saw the Golden Plates not with their actual eyes, but with their visionary eyes, which is contrary to the Mormons' claims that they actually saw the plates and the angel. David Whitmer "saw" the records for the first time that day, unlike Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, who in a vision days before and Oliver even several times before, which is also concealed by the Mormons. And Martin Harris saw the records alone, three days later when Whitmer and Cowdery allegedly saw them. Such a testimony would not be credible in court!
Church publications often show an image that the other eight witnesses of the Book of Mormon see together the Golden Plates in the forest. But, as John Whitmer, one of the eight witnesses credibly testified, Joseph Smith "showed" the plates in his house to the first four witnesses, and later another four people, which in itself makes their testimony implausible (Deseret Evening News, August 6, 1878, letter to the editor of Fr. Wilhelm Poulson, M.D., typed transcript, p.2). The first group consisted of the four Whitmer brothers, while the second group consisted of the father and two brothers of Joseph Smith (Hyrum and Samuel), and Hiram Page, who was married to one of the Sisters of the Whitmers. All witnesses of the Book of Mormon, with the exception of Martin Harris, were related. A rogue who thinks Arges!
Only three of the eight witnesses, Samuel and Hyrum Smith, and John Whitmer testified that they touched the plates. And it is alleged that the two's brother, William, saw, touched and lifted the plates (Zion's Ensign, p.6, January 13, 1894). Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses, never testified in person that he saw the plates, but instead repeatedly confirmed the "supernatural powers" of Joseph Smith in writing the book. Among other things, he said:
"And to say that these holy angels who came and showed themselves to me as I walked through the field to confirm the work of the Lord in the last days— three of them came to me later and sang a song in their own pure language; yes, one would be punished with contempt for the God of heaven if these testimonies were to be denied." (Ensign of Liberty, 1848, quoted in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Volume 7:4, Winter 1972, p.84.)
Even Joseph Smith believed that some of his Golden Plates witnesses were very "uncertain and bad candidates." Here he wrote:

Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris are too shabby to be mentioned; and we would have liked to have forgotten them." (History of the Church, volume 3:232

If you believe the manuscript for the Kinderhook plates was published in the first issues of the Times and Seasons magazine, Why did it state that the manuscript would be forthcoming in a future issue? The fact is that Joseph thought that he recognized a few of the characters but had not actually tried to translate the plates. He did NOT translate the plates.

People go to great lengths to discredit Joseph Smith and the witnesses to the plates. I don't care about any mock poem by Joel H. Johnson. I know that Oliver Cowdery did NOT deny his testimony, even though he left the church for ten years. He even reaffirmed it on his death bed. It is no secret that the first three witnesses saw the plates in a vision, but the eight witnesses handled the plates. My great great grandfather had the Urim and Thummin in his possession for safekeeping for a time. People like to do their best to through doubt on members of the church and will not acknowledge the many truths that have been witnesses even overlooking the Book of Mormon which was prophesized to come forth by Isaiah. You can note the difference between the testimonies of the witnesses:

(Book of Mormon | Preface 3 Witnesses:Heading - 8 Witnesses:1)

THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES

1 BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment–seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

OLIVER COWDERY
DAVID WHITMER
MARTIN HARRIS




THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES

1 BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

CHRISTIAN WHITMER
HIRAM PAGE
JACOB WHITMER
JOSEPH SMITH, SEN.
PETER WHITMER, JUN.
HYRUM SMITH
JOHN WHITMER
SAMUEL H. SMITH

We already knew this. It is not a secret.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Walters' reputation never recovered from the incident wherein he *stole* documents from a courthouse archive and refused to let anyone other than his circle of acquaintances examine them in person before he was legally forced to return them.

A *lot* of Walters' declarations about Joseph Smith stem from these documents, compromising a fair bit of his work in addition to his reputation as a whole.

You'll want to have someone else other than him going.

The Court Record was publish long before Walters who found a

"At this point we are printing the court record in its entirety from its earliest known source, Fraser's Magazine, February, 1873, vol. VII, p. 229-230. Since it will be helpful in understanding the material which will follow, we recommend that even those who have read it before take the time to go over it again.

State of New York v. Joseph Smith.

Warrant issued upon written complaint upon oath of Peter G. Bridgeman, who informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an impostor.

Prisoner brought before Court March 20, 1826. Prisoner examined: says that he came from the town of Palmyra, and had been at the house of Josiah Stowel in Bainbridge most of time since; had small part of time been employed in looking for mines, but the major part had been employed by said Stowel on his farm, and going to school. That he had a certain stone which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and had informed him where he could find these treasures, and Mr. Stowel had been engaged in digging for them. That at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania, and while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds; that he had occasionally been in the habit of looking through this stone to find lost property for three years, but of late had pretty much given it up on account of its injuring his health, especially his eyes, making them sore; that he did not solicit business of this kind, and had always rather declined having anything to do with this business.

Josiah Stowel sworn: says that prisoner had been at his house something like five months; had been employed by him to work on farm part of time; that he pretended to have skill of telling where hidden treasures in the earth were by means of looking through a certain stone; that prisoner had looked for him sometimes; once to tell him about money buried in Bend Mountain in Pennsylvania, once for gold on Monument Hill, and once for a salt spring; and that he positively knew that the prisoner could tell, and did 'possess the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone; that he found the [word illegible] at Bend and Monument Hill as prisoner represented it; that prisoner had looked through said stone for Deacon Attleton for a mine, did not exactly find it, but got a p— [word unfinished] of ore which resembled gold, he thinks; that prisoner had told by means of this stone where a Mr. Bacon had buried money; that he and prisoner had been in search of it; that prisoner had said it was in a certain root of a stump five feet from surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail feather; that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail feather, but money was gone; that he supposed the money moved down. That prisoner did offer his services; that he never deceived him; that prisoner looked through stone and described Josiah Stowel's house and outhouses, while at Palmyra at Simpson Stowel's, correctly; that he had told about a painted tree, with a man's head painted upon it, by means of said stone. That he had been in company with prisoner digging for gold, and had the most implicit faith in prisoner's skill.

Arad Stowel sworn: says that he went to see whether prisoner could convince him that he possessed the skill he professed to have, upon which prisoner laid a book upon a white cloth, and proposed looking through another stone which was white and transparent, hold the stone to the candle, turn his head to book, and read. The deception appeared so palpable that witness went off disgusted.

McMaster sworn: says he went with Arad Stowel, and likewise came away disgusted. Prisoner pretended to him that he could discover objects at a distance by holding this white stone to the sun or candle; that prisoner rather declined looking into a hat at his dark coloured stone, as he said that it hurt his eyes.

Jonathan Thompson says that prisoner was requested to look for chest of money; did look, and pretended to know there it was; and that prisoner, Thompson, and Yeomans went in search of it; that Smith arrived at spot first; was at night; that Smith looked in hat while there, and when very dark, told how the chest was situated. After digging several feet, struck upon something sounding like a board or plank. Prisoner would not look again, pretending that he was alarmed on account of the circumstances relating to the trunk being buried, [which] came all fresh to his mind. That the last time he looked he discovered distinctly the two Indians who buried the trunk, that a quarrel ensued between them, and that one of said Indians was killed by the other, and thrown into the hole beside the trunk, to guard it, as he supposed. Thompson says that he believes in the prisoner's professed skill; that the board which he struck his spade upon was probably the chest, but on account of an enchantment the trunk kept settling away from under them when digging, that notwithstanding they continued constantly removing the dirt, yet the trunk kept about the same distance from them. Says prisoner said that it appeared to him that salt might be found at Bainbridge, and that he is certain that prisoner can divine things by means of said stone. That as evidence of the fact prisoner looked into his hat to tell him about some money witness lost sixteen years ago, and that he described the man that witness supposed had taken it, and the disposition of the money:

And therefore the Court find the Defendant guilty. Costs: Warrant, 19c. Complaint upon oath, 25 1/2c. Seven witnesses, 87 1/2c. Recognisances, 25c. Mittimus, 19c. Recognisances of witnesses, 75c. Subpoena, 18c. - $2.68."

Since the document was publish decades before, he did not steal anything.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

LDS FAQ: Joseph Smith's First Vision Accounts (Origins of Mormonism)

The different versions are easily reconcilable, and aren't some mystery to apologists.



Question: Why is the statement of William Clayton regarding the Kinderhook Plates in ''History of the Church'' written as if Joseph Smith himself said it? - FairMormon

https://www.fairmormon.org/wp-conte...esident-Joseph-Has-Translated-a-Portion-1.pdf

Question: What are the Kinderhook Plates? - FairMormon

The evidence indicates that Joseph only attempted a single plate, and that he attempted the translation using a work known as "Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language" rather than any sort of divine effort. This, coupled with the journal entry likely being the work of his secretary and the people behind the plates waiting decades to say anything about it, suggests that Joseph never regarded the Plates as anything actually special.



LDS FAQ: Fulfilled Prophecies of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet

Many prophecies came true, others were conditional, and some of the ones outstanding are comparable to ones Jesus himself made.



We've had this discussion several times before.

The gist of it is that the Nauvoo City Council, based on a reading of Illinois Common Law, believed that they had the legal right to silence a "nuisance" press and ordered Joseph Smith, the mayor, to handle matters. But while the law at best allowed for the press to be seized, somewhere between Smith and the bailiff the order was instead given for the press to be destroyed. This was a major screw-up, but was most likely the result of human misunderstanding of the law rather than anything overtly malicious.



Yet another discussion we've had before.

Joseph didn't fire until after Hyrum had been mowed down, at which point it became clear that "holding the door and waiting for the police to arrive" wasn't an option and they (he was with two other people aside from Hyrum) would have to take more active steps in their personal defense.

Your use of pour sources discredits what you wrote.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I agree that the first vision was most likely in 1823 or 1824 as the Joseph Smith History account states.

Changes in Joseph Smith's History [PDF Digital Book]
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/pdfnewsletters/33saltlakecitymessenger.pdf
Changes in Joseph Smith's History
Changing World Chapter 13

Falsification of Joseph Smith's History [PDF Digital Book]

 

[He is the way]

Changes in Joseph Smith's History [PDF Digital Book]
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/pdfnewsletters/33saltlakecitymessenger.pdf
Changes in Joseph Smith's History
Changing World Chapter 13

Falsification of Joseph Smith's History [PDF Digital Book]

It seems to me that people have issues with the honesty of the leaders of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. I myself also have issues with the honesty of the Utah Lighthouse Ministries and their Salt Lake Messenger. If I were to choose between believing one or the other it would not be the Utah Lighthouse Ministries. They didn't even post a legible document on Joseph Smith's history. It may have them who marked it up whatever it was.

 

[LindaBerlin]

I still don't see the full transcript of the Kinderhook plates. Some of the Chinese markings may have looked similar to Egyptian hieroglyphics. As I said before "Joseph Smith did not know they were fake and even tried to translate them at first thinking they could be real, but he did NOT translate the Kinderhook plates." It does not mater to me that M. Theodule Deveria explanations differ from the translations made by Joseph Smith. M. Theodule Deveria explanations probably differ from those of other Egyptologists as well. Egyptology is NOT an exact science.

The fact is that both Mormon and non-Mormon sources say that Joseph "I am the king" Smith had translated the plates. The fact that there is no transcript does not mean that it did not exist. It may be lost, destroyed, lying somewhere undetected. The Kinderhook plate from the museum was also found by chance.

 

[LindaBerlin]

Changes in Joseph Smith's History [PDF Digital Book]
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/pdfnewsletters/33saltlakecitymessenger.pdf
Changes in Joseph Smith's History
Changing World Chapter 13

Falsification of Joseph Smith's History [PDF Digital Book]

Mormons want non-Mormons and Mormons to spread a particular image of Smith and the Church. It rarely matches the facts. The example of the Kinderhook plates, the Book of Abraham, and the "prophetic gift" of Smith can be seen in the same way as in the periods of Kirtland and Nauvoo.

 

[LindaBerlin]

It seems to me that people have issues with the honesty of the leaders of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. I myself also have issues with the honesty of the Utah Lighthouse Ministries and their Salt Lake Messenger. If I were to choose between believing one or the other it would not be the Utah Lighthouse Ministries. They didn't even post a legible document on Joseph Smith's history. It may have them who marked it up whatever it was.

Unlike Mormon leadership, ULM works correctly. They publish original documents, show links (for example, between Freemasons and endowment ceremony); and show how little Mormons can call themselves Christians, as Mormons often pervert biblical messages against the original meaning. One example is the baptism of the dead:

Theologically, this joke is based on a scripture from the Bible, misunderstood by Mormons, from 1 Corinthians 15: 29 .
The denial of the raising of the dead has not only repercussions and the Christian faith, but also on the Christian way of life. It focuses on 15.29-34.
Paul now refers to a group of people whose actions would be pointless if the resurrection deniers were right. It must be inferred from this that this group of people, by acting, seeks to bring about a revival which would not exist without action. Paul does not evaluate their actions; what is important to him is that she believes in the raising of the dead. Because there is agreement on this point, it cannot be - if you follow Paul's words - a denier of resurrection. (...)
An answer can be found by making clear the essential difference between ordinary baptism and vicarious baptism. Ordinary baptism, in Paul's opinion, conveys salvation to the living beyond death. In concrete terms, it causes the revival of the dead. The baptism of a dead person through the baptism of a deputy conveys salvation exclusively to a dead person. If one adheres to the words of Paul, salvation can be determined as an enabler to awaken. The raising is what Paul matters; therefore he cannot refer to ordinary baptisms, because the resurrection deniers could then again refer to the healing effects of baptism with regard to the present life and deny the resurrection.
The only thing that is said about the beneficiaries of the deputy baptism is that they are dead. Baptized people can certainly be excluded because they do not need further baptism. So the dead can only be non-Christians, with baptismal candidates who died before baptism. How close the relationship of the dead person is to the person who can be baptized on his behalf remains open.
Finally, to v. 29, it is by no means certain that the verse speaks of the vicarious baptism. Further possibilities of interpretation are made possible if one does not take the term "dead" literally, but interprets it in a figurative sense, e.B. as an expression for dying bodies. Then Paul would ask what the purpose of baptism should be if Christians are not raised with their bodies.
Such a transmitted meaning of the word "dead", however, is less close than a literal meaning. Source of quote: 1 Kor 15,29-34 - Erster Korintherbrief - Der erste Brief des Paulus an die Korinther - Auslegung und Bibliographie zur Bibel

It may seem strange that Mormons in their temples are every baptism, even those who have committed themselves as people's murderers, war criminals, or those who committed "crimes against humanity," and, it is so perfidious of it, also their victims, who belonged to the jewish faith.
Since 1995, no victims of the Holocaust/Shoah have been baptized in Mormon temples, under pressure from Jewish organizations. Names like Anne Frank were included in the lists of those who were "baptized" in a ceremony at the Mormon Temple.
But her assassin, Adolf Hitler, and other Nazi greats were also baptized Mormon, as the Salt Lake Tribune reported in 1999. Hitler was baptized in the Temple of Mormon in London on December 10, 1993, and received the "Endowment" on the same day. On March 12, 1994, he was sealed to his parents, while his sealing to his wife Eva, who he married shortly before his suicide, was carried out on September 28, 1993 (i.e. before his "baptism") at the Jordan River Temple in Utah, USA.
Nazi greats such as Adolf Eichmann, Joseph Göbbels, Rudolph Hess, Reinhard Heydrich, Alfred Rosenberg, Ernst Röhm, Erwin Rommel, Hermann Göring, Heinrich Himmler and even Benito Mussolini also received the "blessings of heaven". Until 1999, these names were still available on PC lists, but not after that, some were even deleted.
But, even though Mormons hated communism, there are also names of communists in their baptisms. Names like: Karl Marx; Joseph Stalin; Mao Tse-Tung or Ho Chi-Minh are represented there as well as those of some mass murderers, including
"Herodes the Great" (baptized in 1994 in the temple in Logan), Ivan Grozny ("Iwan the Terrible"), and "Dracula" (Vlad the Impaler, Prince of Wallachia).
The already mentioned acquaintance told about her "first time" at a baptism of the dead the following:
The whole baptism procedure was quite boring. I had to wait 2 hours until I was finally allowed into this now completely polluted water basin. About 15 times I was baptized for names that appeared next to the pool on a monitor. I had the impression that I had heard these names before, with my predecessors. Anyway.. In any case, I had extreme itching everywhere afterwards because of the many chlorine in the water. (Source of quote: Forum by Mormonentum.de, post from 28 December 2008, at 1:37 a.m.)

 

[LindaBerlin]

THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES

1 BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment–seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

OLIVER COWDERY
DAVID WHITMER
MARTIN HARRIS

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES

1 BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

CHRISTIAN WHITMER
HIRAM PAGE
JACOB WHITMER
JOSEPH SMITH, SEN.
PETER WHITMER, JUN.
HYRUM SMITH
JOHN WHITMER
SAMUEL H. SMITH

We already knew this. It is not a secret.

All of the three witnesses later denied, or put into perspective, their testimony. David W. and Martin H. testified .B that they saw everything only with their "spiritual eyes". And Harris didn't "see" the plates until the next day alone.
Most of the eight witnesses were related to Smith, the rest close friends.
Something else at the time of the first half of the 19th century:

At that time, faith in spirits and supernatural manifestations was widespread. Smith's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, taught her children a lot about it. That is why it was easy for Joseph Smith to deceive others with the help of a "seer stone" that supposedly reveals hidden treasures.

 

[He is the way]

The fact is that both Mormon and non-Mormon sources say that Joseph "I am the king" Smith had translated the plates. The fact that there is no transcript does not mean that it did not exist. It may be lost, destroyed, lying somewhere undetected. The Kinderhook plate from the museum was also found by chance.

Since Joseph Smith did not purchase the Kinderhook plates, it is very doubtful that a he ever tried to translate them. It is more likely that God told him not to waste money on them.

 

[He is the way]

Unlike Mormon leadership, ULM works correctly. They publish original documents, show links (for example, between Freemasons and endowment ceremony); and show how little Mormons can call themselves Christians, as Mormons often pervert biblical messages against the original meaning. One example is the baptism of the dead:

Theologically, this joke is based on a scripture from the Bible, misunderstood by Mormons, from 1 Corinthians 15: 29 .
The denial of the raising of the dead has not only repercussions and the Christian faith, but also on the Christian way of life. It focuses on 15.29-34.
Paul now refers to a group of people whose actions would be pointless if the resurrection deniers were right. It must be inferred from this that this group of people, by acting, seeks to bring about a revival which would not exist without action. Paul does not evaluate their actions; what is important to him is that she believes in the raising of the dead. Because there is agreement on this point, it cannot be - if you follow Paul's words - a denier of resurrection. (...)
An answer can be found by making clear the essential difference between ordinary baptism and vicarious baptism. Ordinary baptism, in Paul's opinion, conveys salvation to the living beyond death. In concrete terms, it causes the revival of the dead. The baptism of a dead person through the baptism of a deputy conveys salvation exclusively to a dead person. If one adheres to the words of Paul, salvation can be determined as an enabler to awaken. The raising is what Paul matters; therefore he cannot refer to ordinary baptisms, because the resurrection deniers could then again refer to the healing effects of baptism with regard to the present life and deny the resurrection.
The only thing that is said about the beneficiaries of the deputy baptism is that they are dead. Baptized people can certainly be excluded because they do not need further baptism. So the dead can only be non-Christians, with baptismal candidates who died before baptism. How close the relationship of the dead person is to the person who can be baptized on his behalf remains open.
Finally, to v. 29, it is by no means certain that the verse speaks of the vicarious baptism. Further possibilities of interpretation are made possible if one does not take the term "dead" literally, but interprets it in a figurative sense, e.B. as an expression for dying bodies. Then Paul would ask what the purpose of baptism should be if Christians are not raised with their bodies.
Such a transmitted meaning of the word "dead", however, is less close than a literal meaning. Source of quote: 1 Kor 15,29-34 - Erster Korintherbrief - Der erste Brief des Paulus an die Korinther - Auslegung und Bibliographie zur Bibel

It may seem strange that Mormons in their temples are every baptism, even those who have committed themselves as people's murderers, war criminals, or those who committed "crimes against humanity," and, it is so perfidious of it, also their victims, who belonged to the jewish faith.
Since 1995, no victims of the Holocaust/Shoah have been baptized in Mormon temples, under pressure from Jewish organizations. Names like Anne Frank were included in the lists of those who were "baptized" in a ceremony at the Mormon Temple.
But her assassin, Adolf Hitler, and other Nazi greats were also baptized Mormon, as the Salt Lake Tribune reported in 1999. Hitler was baptized in the Temple of Mormon in London on December 10, 1993, and received the "Endowment" on the same day. On March 12, 1994, he was sealed to his parents, while his sealing to his wife Eva, who he married shortly before his suicide, was carried out on September 28, 1993 (i.e. before his "baptism") at the Jordan River Temple in Utah, USA.
Nazi greats such as Adolf Eichmann, Joseph Göbbels, Rudolph Hess, Reinhard Heydrich, Alfred Rosenberg, Ernst Röhm, Erwin Rommel, Hermann Göring, Heinrich Himmler and even Benito Mussolini also received the "blessings of heaven". Until 1999, these names were still available on PC lists, but not after that, some were even deleted.
But, even though Mormons hated communism, there are also names of communists in their baptisms. Names like: Karl Marx; Joseph Stalin; Mao Tse-Tung or Ho Chi-Minh are represented there as well as those of some mass murderers, including
"Herodes the Great" (baptized in 1994 in the temple in Logan), Ivan Grozny ("Iwan the Terrible"), and "Dracula" (Vlad the Impaler, Prince of Wallachia).
The already mentioned acquaintance told about her "first time" at a baptism of the dead the following:
The whole baptism procedure was quite boring. I had to wait 2 hours until I was finally allowed into this now completely polluted water basin. About 15 times I was baptized for names that appeared next to the pool on a monitor. I had the impression that I had heard these names before, with my predecessors. Anyway.. In any case, I had extreme itching everywhere afterwards because of the many chlorine in the water. (Source of quote: Forum by Mormonentum.de, post from 28 December 2008, at 1:37 a.m.)

Are You assuming that baptism for the dead is part of the freemason ceremony and that we are the ones who misunderstand the scriptures? I have been in a masonic temple and I did not see one baptismal font. I am not worried about who was baptized. God is in charge and He will recognize the baptisms of those who are worthy of them and reject the others. Besides everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject the baptism, it is not like they will be forced to accept it. That being said God is a just God and will make baptism available to all of His children who are worthy of it.

 

[He is the way]

All of the three witnesses later denied, or put into perspective, their testimony. David W. and Martin H. testified .B that they saw everything only with their "spiritual eyes". And Harris didn't "see" the plates until the next day alone.
Most of the eight witnesses were related to Smith, the rest close friends.
Something else at the time of the first half of the 19th century:

At that time, faith in spirits and supernatural manifestations was widespread. Smith's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, taught her children a lot about it. That is why it was easy for Joseph Smith to deceive others with the help of a "seer stone" that supposedly reveals hidden treasures.

Not one of the three witnesses ever denied what they had seen. As I have shown it is no secret that they seen the plates in a vision. It is not important that Harris waited until the next day to see the plates. He did see them and confirmed that he did. These accusations are frivolous and subjective, probably because there was nothing concrete that could be used.

 

[Ironhold]

The fact is that both Mormon and non-Mormon sources say that Joseph "I am the king" Smith had translated the plates.

Two of your three sources said that he was going to, not that he had. In other words, the translation hadn't yet happened.

That's why there's so much more to research than just going off of someone's quote-mined list.

 

[Ironhold]

Unlike Mormon leadership, ULM works correctly.

Not only have they been caught on numerous instances doctoring citations (usually by using ellipses to censor inconvenient material), the group so flagrantly violated American copyright law that observers were expecting the legal consequences of their actions to be precedent-setting.

The long and short of it is that The Church Handbook of Instructions, the official manual that tells local-level leaders what the official guidelines are, is copyrighted in keeping with American copyright law. The Tanners published an entire chapter of it without permission, which is a violation of copyright law. Not only that, but American copyright law requires a copyright holder to actively defend their copyright in order to keep it, and so the church's lawyers sent them a letter asking them to take the material down. The Tanners thought the church was bluffing until they got a summons to appear in court, and a legal settlement was quickly reached.

Within months, however, the Tanners were linking to a series of websites hosted outside of the United States that had the same chapter posted online. This time, they dared the church to take them to court. Legal observers believed that this would be a precedent-setting event regarding copyright law across international jurisdictions, but instead the judge in the case made their decision on the basis of the terms of the original legal settlement. Their decision was that this was a clear and obvious effort by the Tanners to end-run around the settlement, and so the judge found in the church's favor.

Given how seriously the American legal system views violations of copyright law, the Tanners could have literally lost their entire ministry over this. That's how brazen what they did was. Instead, they were hit with a significant fine and placed under permanent restrictions regarding Fair Use citations of future works.

 

[LindaBerlin]

Since Joseph Smith did not purchase the Kinderhook plates, it is very doubtful that a he ever tried to translate them. It is more likely that God told him not to waste money on them.

There is enough evidence that Smith had translated the records. Own statements, statements from the newspaper, as well as statements of Mormons. If you doubt it, you should remember the song "Turn it off" from the Book of Mormon Musical as a Mormon. Maybe he understands then?

 

[LindaBerlin]

Are You assuming that baptism for the dead is part of the freemason ceremony and that we are the ones who misunderstand the scriptures? I have been in a masonic temple and I did not see one baptismal font. I am not worried about who was baptized. God is in charge and He will recognize the baptisms of those who are worthy of them and reject the others. Besides everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject the baptism, it is not like they will be forced to accept it. That being said God is a just God and will make baptism available to all of His children who are worthy of it.

Heaven, no! The baptism of the dead has nothing to do with Freemasons, but the endowment does. I once took the trouble to compare some of the texts of the Freemasons in their ritual, with the endowment ceremony. And I discovered many similarities.
One question: Why do Mormons still bwell Jews in their temples today, even though they were forbidden to do so by the World Jewish Congress?

 

[LindaBerlin]

Not one of the three witnesses ever denied what they had seen. As I have shown it is no secret that they seen the plates in a vision. It is not important that Harris waited until the next day to see the plates. He did see them and confirmed that he did. These accusations are frivolous and subjective, probably because there was nothing concrete that could be used.

None? Then read what was in a Mormon magazine:

Times and Seasons in 1841 (vol. 2, p.482):

Or does it prove there is no time,
Because some watches don't go?
Or prove that Christ was not the Lord
Because that Peter cursed and swore?
Or Book of Mormon not His word
Because denied, by Oliver?

You can see the original as copy in the Book "The Changing World of Mormonism, p. 95.

 

[LindaBerlin]

Two of your three sources said that he was going to, not that he had. In other words, the translation hadn't yet happened.

That's why there's so much more to research than just going off of someone's quote-mined list.

Wrong. Here is the proof to the contrary:

» Guest: Joseph Smith’s Mistranslation of the Kinderhook Plates (3 of 4)

I quote:

This similarity of characters apparently affirmed that Smith did translate from the plates and indicated that he had done so through character matching followed by the adaptation of a corresponding lexical definition into a translation. In other words, his translation attempt had been by a conventional translation method (see diagram).
The information Joseph Smith had conveyed to William Clayton—about the plates being a history of a descendant of Pharaoh—was apparently derived from this single character at the top of one of the plates.

And here a comment from that link:

No, the guys in Kinderhook (about 70 miles downriver from Nauvoo), who forged the Kinderhook plates, did not have access to the GAEL, which was at Joseph Smith’s house in Nauvoo.

Yes, there may be other characters on the Kinderhook plates that resemble characters in the GAEL. According to Sylvester Emmons, there was a favorable comparison of “characters” (plural), so it seems that more than one match was identified. I think your scenario of Joseph abandoning the effort when he couldn’t identify enough matches is entirely plausible. Or, alternatively, he perceived enough matches to make an attempt but was not able to string the GAEL definitions associated with the character matches into a sensible translation. This is all about 1843 May 1-7. The June broadside of print facsimiles stated that the translation of the plates will be published as soon as it is completed. Presumably this was motivated in part by the financial aim of increasing subscriptions to the church newspaper (as with the promises of further installments from the Book of Abraham), but must have also been based on some actual expectation. However, Smith was murdered before ever returning to either the Book of Abraham or the Kinderhook plates.

Comment by Mark Ashurst-McGee — August 27, 2020

 

[LindaBerlin]

The long and short of it is that The Church Handbook of Instructions, the official manual that tells local-level leaders what the official guidelines are, is copyrighted in keeping with American copyright law. The Tanners published an entire chapter of it without permission, which is a violation of copyright law. Not only that, but American copyright law requires a copyright holder to actively defend their copyright in order to keep it, and so the church's lawyers sent them a letter asking them to take the material down. The Tanners thought the church was bluffing until they got a summons to appear in court, and a legal settlement was quickly reached.

I have various Church manuals. Partly from my active time, partly from the Internet, especially from Jullian Assange's page. And what I found there was very revealing to me. Especially as a woman!

 

[Daniel Marsh]

It seems to me that people have issues with the honesty of the leaders of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. I myself also have issues with the honesty of the Utah Lighthouse Ministries and their Salt Lake Messenger. If I were to choose between believing one or the other it would not be the Utah Lighthouse Ministries. They didn't even post a legible document on Joseph Smith's history. It may have them who marked it up whatever it was.

Since Mrs Tanner is simply republishing historical LDS sources. I give her more weight when it comes to being truthful. Let's face LDS apologetists are not very good at presenting all the data. They are after all trying to write "faith" Promoting literature --- glossing over probems.