LDS Mountain Meadows Massacre: John D. Lee was a Scapegoat!

[Daniel Marsh]

wife is almost home, will need to sign off soon.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Scrolled thru to here. Good Night all, daniel

 

[He is the way]

Her book on JS was well documented from primary sources.

Yes, but it still had lots of flaws. As an example why would anyone go to Palmyra to do research about the religious revival when the Smith family had moved to Manchester?

 

[LindaBerlin]

Yes, but it still had lots of flaws. As an example why would anyone go to Palmyra to do research about the religious revival when the Smith family had moved to Manchester?

For a script I had to research. The plot took place in Germany and the USA in the 19th century (it was an emigrant story that was never filmed). I searched for everything I needed, in Germany and England together, was never in the USA for this research.
I suspect there was enough material in the archives of Palmyra for her book.
Where someone researches is unimportant. Only the result is important!

 

[He is the way]

For a script I had to research. The plot took place in Germany and the USA in the 19th century (it was an emigrant story that was never filmed). I searched for everything I needed, in Germany and England together, was never in the USA for this research.
I suspect there was enough material in the archives of Palmyra for her book.
Where someone researches is unimportant. Only the result is important!

She thought the revival was in Palmyra, that is why she went there to ask the people there about it. Her conclusion is that there was no revival there. There probably wasn't a revival there, but she should have checked if there was a revival in Manchester where they actually lived at the time. Poor research does not give the correct answers.

 

[Ironhold]

Only the result is important!

"The story is true even if the evidence is false!" pretty well sums up CBS News' defense of their handling of #Memogate.

Killian documents controversy - Wikipedia

In 2004, someone supplied news producer Mary Mapes with what they claimed were copies of memos written by the former commander of the Air National Guard unit then-President George W. Bush served in. These memos alleged that Bush's time of service was not satisfactory and that he could face punishment for not fulfilling his service time, but that various individuals - potentially including Bush's father - were putting pressure on the Air National Guard to ensure that his record was spotless.

Mapes prioritized getting the story to air ahead of the 2004 election over actually ensuring that the documents were valid. Not only that, she contacted the campaign of John Kerry, Bush's opponent, without contacting Bush's campaign. Both are major breaches of journalistic integrity.

Sure enough, even before the news program finished airing, documents experts were on various internet forums explaining at length the numerous signs that the documents were forgeries, and that they'd been typed out on a then-modern word processor before being artificially aged. Those people who hadn't seen the experts making their initial postings when it happened saw those postings in the morning... myself included.

Yes, I was one of the so-called "Pajama-Wearing Keyboard Warriors", as CBS News so derisively called us, who was online demanding answers about whether or not the documents were fake and how CBS News could have let them go to air if they were.

CBS News continued to claim that the story was true even after CBS corporate declared their intention to investigate. Corporate, sure enough, discovered Mapes' lapses in judgment. The host of the news show where the documents were first discussed was forced into retirement because his reputation was so badly damaged by association, while Mapes and the rest of her production team were fired.

So no, the result is not the only important thing. It's more important how one gets that result.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Yes, but it still had lots of flaws. As an example why would anyone go to Palmyra to do research about the religious revival when the Smith family had moved to Manchester?

Hi Friend, I think I was talking about the Church Fathers --- I may be mistaken.
If I was speaking about LDS JS History, I would include all time periods.

Thanks,
daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

She thought the revival was in Palmyra, that is why she went there to ask the people there about it. Her conclusion is that there was no revival there. There probably wasn't a revival there, but she should have checked if there was a revival in Manchester where they actually lived at the time. Poor research does not give the correct answers.

Here is what I found, "New York. One itinerant Methodist preacher documented in his journal revivals near Palmyra and Manchester in 1819 and 1820.7 For young Joseph Smith, who even witnessed religious differences within his own family, it was certainly a time of religious excitement, just as he claimed in his history. " Palmyra and Manchester

...

"
Inventing Mormonism
H. Michael Marquardt & Wesley P. Walters

Chapter 2
The Palmyra Revival

When Joseph Smith, Jr., described his first vision in his 1838-39 account, he dated it to the spring of 1820 and affirmed that this vision was the result of a religious revival, “an unusual excitement on the subject of religion” which took place “in the place where we lived.” But he also dated it “sometime in the second year after our removal to Manchester.” As shown in the previous chapter, the Smith family did not move onto their Manchester farm until 1822. The second year after this move would have been 1824, not 1820. An examination of newspaper accounts, religious periodicals, church records, and personal narratives shows that there were no significant gains in church memberships or any other signs of revival in Palmyra in 1820. There was a stirring and momentous revival there with all the features that Joseph Smith’s history mentions during the fall and winter of 1824-25.

Smith stated that the revival that stirred him also led his mother, sister, and two brothers to join the Presbyterian church, while he was drawn to the Methodists.1 In the preliminary draft of his mother’s history, Lucy adds details which suggest an 1824 date for the revival as well. She begins by linking the revival to the death of her son Alvin. After relating the family’s sorrow after his death, when “we could not be comforted because he was not,” she adds a short statement, subsequently crossed out: “About this time their [there] was a great revival in religion and the whole neighborhood was very much aroused to the subject, and we among the rest flocked to the meeting house to see if their [there] was a word of comfort for us that might [p.16]releive [relieve] our over charged feelings.”2 Her “over-charged feelings” were the result of her oldest son Alvin dying suddenly the previous year (1823).

A year after this event she was still seeking consolation for her wounded soul and hoped to find it at the town meeting house where the revival was in full progress and frequent meetings held. Her manuscript continues:

There was <at this time> a man then laboring in that place to effect a union of all the churches, that all denominations might be agreed to worship God with one mind, and one heart. This I thought looked right, and tried to persuade my Husband to join with them as I wished to do so myself and it was the inclination of them all [her children] except Joseph. He refused from the first to attend the meeting with us. He would say, Mother, I do not wish to prevent you from going to meeting or joining any church you like or any of the Family who desire the like, only do not ask me to <do so> for I do not wish to go. But I will take my Bible and go out into the woods and learn more in two hours than you could if you were to go to meeting two years. My husband also declined attending the meetings after the first but did not object to myself and such of the children as chose <going or becoming> church members.

Lucy notes that Joseph warned her about those involved, and her description of his warning suggests that the church she was intending to join was indeed the local Presbyterian church:

Now you look at deacon <Jessup>… . suppose that (one of his poor neighbors) owed him the value of one cow. This man has eight small children; suppose the poor man should be taken sick & die leaving his wife with one cow but destitute of every means of support for herself and family. Now I tell you that deacon Jess<u>p, <religious> as he is, would not hesitate to take the last cow from the widow and orphans rather than loose the debt.3

Henry Jessup was a long-time Presbyterian, one of the original trustees of the Western Presbyterian Church of Palmyra at its incorporation on 18 March 1817.4

According to Joseph, his older brother Hyrum joined the Presbyterian church along with his mother as a result of the revival. Willard [p.17]Chase, a neighbor, mentioned that in 1825 Hyrum asked to borrow his seer stone. Though reluctant to let the stone go, Chase said he honored Hyrum’s request because Hyrum “had made a profession of religion” and Chase felt he could now be trusted to return it.5

In his 1838-39 account Joseph Smith remembered that great multitudes joined the Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian churches during the revival. Church membership rolls are carefully kept, and in most cases can still be traced." Inventing Mormonism – 02 |

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"The story is true even if the evidence is false!" pretty well sums up CBS News' defense of their handling of #Memogate.
...
So no, the result is not the only important thing. It's more important how one gets that result.

There must be intelligent life on other planets: No one has proven there isn’t.
There isn’t any intelligent life on other planets: No one has proven there is.
How to Argue Against Common Fallacies

 

[Daniel Marsh]

wife will be home soon.

 

[He is the way]

Here is what I found, "New York. One itinerant Methodist preacher documented in his journal revivals near Palmyra and Manchester in 1819 and 1820.7 For young Joseph Smith, who even witnessed religious differences within his own family, it was certainly a time of religious excitement, just as he claimed in his history. " Palmyra and Manchester

...

"
Inventing Mormonism
H. Michael Marquardt & Wesley P. Walters

Chapter 2
The Palmyra Revival

When Joseph Smith, Jr., described his first vision in his 1838-39 account, he dated it to the spring of 1820 and affirmed that this vision was the result of a religious revival, “an unusual excitement on the subject of religion” which took place “in the place where we lived.” But he also dated it “sometime in the second year after our removal to Manchester.” As shown in the previous chapter, the Smith family did not move onto their Manchester farm until 1822. The second year after this move would have been 1824, not 1820. An examination of newspaper accounts, religious periodicals, church records, and personal narratives shows that there were no significant gains in church memberships or any other signs of revival in Palmyra in 1820. There was a stirring and momentous revival there with all the features that Joseph Smith’s history mentions during the fall and winter of 1824-25.

Smith stated that the revival that stirred him also led his mother, sister, and two brothers to join the Presbyterian church, while he was drawn to the Methodists.1 In the preliminary draft of his mother’s history, Lucy adds details which suggest an 1824 date for the revival as well. She begins by linking the revival to the death of her son Alvin. After relating the family’s sorrow after his death, when “we could not be comforted because he was not,” she adds a short statement, subsequently crossed out: “About this time their [there] was a great revival in religion and the whole neighborhood was very much aroused to the subject, and we among the rest flocked to the meeting house to see if their [there] was a word of comfort for us that might [p.16]releive [relieve] our over charged feelings.”2 Her “over-charged feelings” were the result of her oldest son Alvin dying suddenly the previous year (1823).

A year after this event she was still seeking consolation for her wounded soul and hoped to find it at the town meeting house where the revival was in full progress and frequent meetings held. Her manuscript continues:

There was <at this time> a man then laboring in that place to effect a union of all the churches, that all denominations might be agreed to worship God with one mind, and one heart. This I thought looked right, and tried to persuade my Husband to join with them as I wished to do so myself and it was the inclination of them all [her children] except Joseph. He refused from the first to attend the meeting with us. He would say, Mother, I do not wish to prevent you from going to meeting or joining any church you like or any of the Family who desire the like, only do not ask me to <do so> for I do not wish to go. But I will take my Bible and go out into the woods and learn more in two hours than you could if you were to go to meeting two years. My husband also declined attending the meetings after the first but did not object to myself and such of the children as chose <going or becoming> church members.

Lucy notes that Joseph warned her about those involved, and her description of his warning suggests that the church she was intending to join was indeed the local Presbyterian church:

Now you look at deacon <Jessup>… . suppose that (one of his poor neighbors) owed him the value of one cow. This man has eight small children; suppose the poor man should be taken sick & die leaving his wife with one cow but destitute of every means of support for herself and family. Now I tell you that deacon Jess<u>p, <religious> as he is, would not hesitate to take the last cow from the widow and orphans rather than loose the debt.3

Henry Jessup was a long-time Presbyterian, one of the original trustees of the Western Presbyterian Church of Palmyra at its incorporation on 18 March 1817.4

According to Joseph, his older brother Hyrum joined the Presbyterian church along with his mother as a result of the revival. Willard [p.17]Chase, a neighbor, mentioned that in 1825 Hyrum asked to borrow his seer stone. Though reluctant to let the stone go, Chase said he honored Hyrum’s request because Hyrum “had made a profession of religion” and Chase felt he could now be trusted to return it.5

In his 1838-39 account Joseph Smith remembered that great multitudes joined the Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian churches during the revival. Church membership rolls are carefully kept, and in most cases can still be traced." Inventing Mormonism – 02 |

According to this Joseph was about 14 when his family moved to Manchester. He was there 2 years before there was "an unusual excitement on the subject of religion":

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:3 - 5)

3 I was born in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and five, on the twenty-third day of December, in the town of Sharon, Windsor county, State of Vermont . . . My father, Joseph Smith, Sen., left the State of Vermont, and moved to Palmyra, Ontario (now Wayne) county, in the State of New York, when I was in my tenth year, or thereabouts. In about four years after my father's arrival in Palmyra, he moved with his family into Manchester in the same county of Ontario—
4 His family consisting of eleven souls, namely, my father, Joseph Smith; my mother, Lucy Smith (whose name, previous to her marriage, was Mack, daughter of Solomon Mack); my brothers, Alvin (who died November 19th, 1823, in the 26th year of his age), Hyrum, myself, Samuel Harrison, William, Don Carlos; and my sisters, Sophronia, Catherine, and Lucy.
5 Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, "Lo, here!" and others, "Lo, there!" Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist.

Although Manchester is close to Palmyra there is most likely a big difference in what happened in the two locations. It would not be wise to go to Palmyra to do research on "an unusual excitement on the subject of religion" which happened in Manchester.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

thank you,
daniel

 

[LindaBerlin]

She thought the revival was in Palmyra, that is why she went there to ask the people there about it. Her conclusion is that there was no revival there. There probably wasn't a revival there, but she should have checked if there was a revival in Manchester where they actually lived at the time. Poor research does not give the correct answers.

There was a revival in Palmyra. And it was 1823/24. Oliver Cowdery, cousin and secretary of Joseph Smith, said that he had the first vision at the age of 17. So in 1823, and not in 1820, as Mormons claim. Here is a link:

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V04N01_61.pdf

 

[LindaBerlin]

According to this Joseph was about 14 when his family moved to Manchester. He was there 2 years before there was "an unusual excitement on the subject of religion":

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:3 - 5)

Lord in heaven, I'm flipping out right away! Joseph Smith, not only horny to other women, whether underage or already married to a man, was a notorious liar. His whole life proves it!
Five different, well-documented first-vision narratives, The Story of the Kinderhook Plates, which proved that Smith could not translate (as did the story of the book of Abraham); his unfulfilled prophecies, his denial of the polygamy; all this shows what a liar, swindler and fraudster he was.
And the Mormons? They themselves lie about his death; portray him as a "martyr of faith". But what was it really like?
As mayor, Smith had the printing press of a newspaper destroyed (with the help of the city council) and threatened the editors for telling the truth about him. An attack on press freedom, violation of federal law.
He fled, returned under pressure from his wife, Emma, and some Mormons. He was arrested. In prison, he asked a major of the Nauvoo Legion (a Mormon militia army) to free him from prison. The major refused, and was treated like a traitor by Mormons. A Mormon smuggled pistols into prison for Joseph and his brother Hyrum. When the mob stormed the prison, Smith shot one, wounded another. He jumped out of the window by calling out the emergency signal of the Freemasons (Smith had been a Freemason since 1842). He died.
Is such a martyr acting?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Lord in heaven, I'm flipping out right away! Joseph Smith, not only horny to other women, whether underage or already married to a man, was a notorious liar. His whole life proves it!
Five different, well-documented first-vision narratives, The Story of the Kinderhook Plates, which proved that Smith could not translate (as did the story of the book of Abraham); his unfulfilled prophecies, his denial of the polygamy; all this shows what a liar, swindler and fraudster he was.
And the Mormons? They themselves lie about his death; portray him as a "martyr of faith". But what was it really like?
As mayor, Smith had the printing press of a newspaper destroyed (with the help of the city council) and threatened the editors for telling the truth about him. An attack on press freedom, violation of federal law.
He fled, returned under pressure from his wife, Emma, and some Mormons. He was arrested. In prison, he asked a major of the Nauvoo Legion (a Mormon militia army) to free him from prison. The major refused, and was treated like a traitor by Mormons. A Mormon smuggled pistols into prison for Joseph and his brother Hyrum. When the mob stormed the prison, Smith shot one, wounded another. He jumped out of the window by calling out the emergency signal of the Freemasons (Smith had been a Freemason since 1842). He died.
Is such a martyr acting?

2 Peter 2:1-3
GOD’S WORD Translation
Warnings about False Teachers
2 False prophets were among God’s people ⌞in the past⌟, as false teachers will be among you. They will secretly bring in their own destructive teachings. They will deny the Lord, who has bought them, and they will bring themselves swift destruction. 2 Many people will follow them in their sexual freedom and will cause others to dishonor the way of truth. 3 In their greed they will use good-sounding arguments to exploit you. The verdict against them from long ago is still in force, and their destruction is not asleep.

Wisdom 14:12
The Origins of Idolatry
Sexual immorality began when idols were invented. They have corrupted human life ever since they were first made.

Wisdom 14:26
harassment of innocent people, ingratitude, moral decay, sexual perversion, broken marriages, adultery, and immorality.

 

[Ironhold]

Wesley P. Walters

Walters' reputation never recovered from the incident wherein he *stole* documents from a courthouse archive and refused to let anyone other than his circle of acquaintances examine them in person before he was legally forced to return them.

A *lot* of Walters' declarations about Joseph Smith stem from these documents, compromising a fair bit of his work in addition to his reputation as a whole.

You'll want to have someone else other than him going.

 

[Ironhold]

There must be intelligent life on other planets: No one has proven there isn’t.
There isn’t any intelligent life on other planets: No one has proven there is.
How to Argue Against Common Fallacies

In real life, I'm an entertainment writer.

This is a career field so besotted with scandal, corruption, and nepotism that it'd curl your nose hairs just thinking about some of what's gone down. I spend a lot of my time trying to explain to people what this corruption is, how to watch out for it, and what it means for everyone, both to protect my own reputation and to ensure that people are educated about what's happening.

I've had people tell me that I care more about journalistic ethics than most mainstream news reporters.

 

[Ironhold]

Five different, well-documented first-vision narratives,

LDS FAQ: Joseph Smith's First Vision Accounts (Origins of Mormonism)

The different versions are easily reconcilable, and aren't some mystery to apologists.

The Story of the Kinderhook Plates, which proved that Smith could not translate (as did the story of the book of Abraham);

Question: Why is the statement of William Clayton regarding the Kinderhook Plates in ''History of the Church'' written as if Joseph Smith himself said it? - FairMormon

https://www.fairmormon.org/wp-conte...esident-Joseph-Has-Translated-a-Portion-1.pdf

Question: What are the Kinderhook Plates? - FairMormon

The evidence indicates that Joseph only attempted a single plate, and that he attempted the translation using a work known as "Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language" rather than any sort of divine effort. This, coupled with the journal entry likely being the work of his secretary and the people behind the plates waiting decades to say anything about it, suggests that Joseph never regarded the Plates as anything actually special.

his unfulfilled prophecies,

LDS FAQ: Fulfilled Prophecies of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet

Many prophecies came true, others were conditional, and some of the ones outstanding are comparable to ones Jesus himself made.

As mayor, Smith had the printing press of a newspaper destroyed (with the help of the city council) and threatened the editors for telling the truth about him.

We've had this discussion several times before.

The gist of it is that the Nauvoo City Council, based on a reading of Illinois Common Law, believed that they had the legal right to silence a "nuisance" press and ordered Joseph Smith, the mayor, to handle matters. But while the law at best allowed for the press to be seized, somewhere between Smith and the bailiff the order was instead given for the press to be destroyed. This was a major screw-up, but was most likely the result of human misunderstanding of the law rather than anything overtly malicious.

Is such a martyr acting?

Yet another discussion we've had before.

Joseph didn't fire until after Hyrum had been mowed down, at which point it became clear that "holding the door and waiting for the police to arrive" wasn't an option and they (he was with two other people aside from Hyrum) would have to take more active steps in their personal defense.

 

[He is the way]

There was a revival in Palmyra. And it was 1823/24. Oliver Cowdery, cousin and secretary of Joseph Smith, said that he had the first vision at the age of 17. So in 1823, and not in 1820, as Mormons claim. Here is a link:

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V04N01_61.pdf

I agree that the first vision was most likely in 1823 or 1824 as the Joseph Smith History account states.

 

[He is the way]

Lord in heaven, I'm flipping out right away! Joseph Smith, not only horny to other women, whether underage or already married to a man, was a notorious liar. His whole life proves it!
Five different, well-documented first-vision narratives, The Story of the Kinderhook Plates, which proved that Smith could not translate (as did the story of the book of Abraham); his unfulfilled prophecies, his denial of the polygamy; all this shows what a liar, swindler and fraudster he was.
And the Mormons? They themselves lie about his death; portray him as a "martyr of faith". But what was it really like?
As mayor, Smith had the printing press of a newspaper destroyed (with the help of the city council) and threatened the editors for telling the truth about him. An attack on press freedom, violation of federal law.
He fled, returned under pressure from his wife, Emma, and some Mormons. He was arrested. In prison, he asked a major of the Nauvoo Legion (a Mormon militia army) to free him from prison. The major refused, and was treated like a traitor by Mormons. A Mormon smuggled pistols into prison for Joseph and his brother Hyrum. When the mob stormed the prison, Smith shot one, wounded another. He jumped out of the window by calling out the emergency signal of the Freemasons (Smith had been a Freemason since 1842). He died.
Is such a martyr acting?

Joseph Smith didn't translate the fake Kinderhook plates, which proves that he was able to translate. Nor was he married to a man or horny to other women. Your accusations have no foundation what so ever. His prophecies will be fulfilled and he died as a martyr. The city council voted to have the press destroyed, and the non-member sheriff made sure it was. The Nauvoo Expositor was owned by people out for revenge and wanted Joseph Smith to pay with his blood. Guns were smuggled in to the jail and self defense is legal. However I believe that Joseph Smith was defending the others in the jail with him. He said "my Lord my God" before he died. I believe that was because the Lord was there to welcome him home.