Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[zoidar]

NO "I" would not.

How do you in fact know that the person who said he was healed was sick to begin with.

You do know that the Bible says that ALL men are liars....right?

How do you know that the person was not healed from the result of prayer?????

I would also say that a telling sign of what you are saying is ......was a "LOVE OFFERING" taken up???

I understand you scepticism, knowing what you have been through. Some scepticism is healthy, even I think you have taken it too far.

 

[zoidar]

Did you experience something when you got saved???

Not sure where you are going with this, but yes.

 

[Major1]

Just because we have quite a few nutjobs in our world telling imaginary stories, doesn't mean there can't be incredible stories that are real.

It means that sincerely good people can be and have been delirious and make up stories to make themselves look like they are Gods chosen people who are above and better than other people.

In fact we are all the same in Christ and He does not come in person to pull teeth or to do any other thing like that for anyone. However.....watch enough religious TV and you will hear the same kind of things.

 

[zoidar]

It means that sincerely good people can be and have been delirious and make up stories to make themselves look like they are Gods chosen people who are above and better than other people.

In fact we are all the same in Christ and He does not come in person to pull teeth or to do any other thing like that for anyone. However.....watch enough religious TV and you will hear the same kind of things.

Yeah, I know there are a lot of wacky stories. One time I heard about a siamese twin that God apparently made into one person. Obviously made up.

 

[Major1]

I understand you scepticism, knowing what you have been through. Some scepticism is healthy, even I think you have taken it too far.

You are very mistaken brother. I am not a skeptic in any fashion of the word.

I have been speaking, writing and producing Christian material in support of the Lord Jesus Christ and His role in ALL of the Scriptures for 50 years.

Because I disagree with you does not make me a skeptic anymore than you disagreeing with me makes you a heretic. Neither of those positions make the "Sign Gifts" available to you or anyone else.

Lets stay away from personal comments and focus on the Scriptures.

The Scriptures say in Mark and Matthew that the "Sign Gifts" where given to the ELEVEN by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you deny that fact??????

Matthew 28:16-20 .....
"Then the ELEVEN disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When THEY saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to THEM and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

Paul said that not everyone is given the same gifts. Some receive the gift of tongues, some receive the gift of interpretation, and some receive the gift of prophecy. So it’s apparent that these gifts were not exclusively given to the 11.

 

[Major1]

Yeah, I know there are a lot of wacky stories. One time I heard about a siamese twin that God apparently made into one person. Obviously made up.

What I am trying to get across to you is that it only takes one "Wacky", exaggerated, made up, well intended story to convince some one who is not educated in the Scriptures but means well and wants to love to God to then accept such a story and then base their life on such nonsense.

 

[Major1]

Paul said that not everyone is given the same gifts. Some receive the gift of tongues, some receive the gift of interpretation, and some receive the gift of prophecy. So it’s apparent that these gifts were not exclusively given to the 11.

But that very same Paul then went and said that if the church is speaking in tongues and a lost man comes in and observes it....he will think that you are insane????

The very same Paul in his corrective letter to the church in Corinth told them in chapter 14:33...."And you women are not to speak (IN TONGUES) in the Church".

Scripture also says that what you stated will come to and end in 1 Corth. 13:8-9........
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part:."""

 

[zoidar]

You are very mistaken brother. I am not a skeptic in any fashion of the word.

I have been speaking, writing and producing Christian material in support of the Lord Jesus Christ and His role in ALL of the Scriptures for 50 years.

Because I disagree with you does not make me a skeptic anymore than you disagreeing with me makes you a heretic. Neither of those positions make the "Sign Gifts" available to you or anyone else.

Lets stay away from personal comments and focus on the Scriptures.

The Scriptures say in Mark and Matthew that the "Sign Gifts" where given to the ELEVEN by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you deny that fact??????

Matthew 28:16-20 .....
"Then the ELEVEN disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When THEY saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to THEM and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

I didn't mean you are a sceptic of Christianity or faith or the Word, but sceptic to "supernatural" gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But that very same Paul then went and said that if the church is speaking in tongues and a lost man comes in and observes it....he will think that you are insane????

The very same Paul in his corrective letter to the church in Corinth told them in chapter 14:33...."And you women are not to speak (IN TONGUES) in the Church".

Scripture also says that what you stated will come to and end in 1 Corth. 13:8-9........
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part:."""

Ok I don’t dispute this, my point was that these gifts were not exclusively given to the 11 apostles. As far as speaking tongues goes today I just try to avoid such conversations. I will say that I am extremely skeptical about it today but I don’t rule out the possibility. You know, God told Noah that He would not endure man past 120 years and yet Abraham lived to be 175 years old. So I think it’s possible that there are exceptions God makes from time to time and our misunderstanding could be the result of bad translation or a different use of the phrase at the time He said it. One thing I have said before on the topic of speaking & interpreting tongues is I would love to see an actual test on the validity of this by simply recording people speaking in tongues and have people translate them and see how many of the translations match. I mean if I could do it and it as real I would be all too eager to prove it.

 

[1an]

You are very mistaken brother. I am not a skeptic in any fashion of the word.

I have been speaking, writing and producing Christian material in support of the Lord Jesus Christ and His role in ALL of the Scriptures for 50 years.

Because I disagree with you does not make me a skeptic anymore than you disagreeing with me makes you a heretic. Neither of those positions make the "Sign Gifts" available to you or anyone else.

Lets stay away from personal comments and focus on the Scriptures.

The Scriptures say in Mark and Matthew that the "Sign Gifts" where given to the ELEVEN by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you deny that fact??????

Matthew 28:16-20 .....
"Then the ELEVEN disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When THEY saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to THEM and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

That's it then, God died at the end of the apostolic age.
.

 

[Guojing]

Read my last post #411.

Its a yes or no question. If your answer is not a 100% yes, it had to be a no.

You don't have the power to forgive sins period, the punishment for sins will still be coming for non Christians even if you forgive them for committing them against you.

 

[1an]

Its a yes or no question. If your answer is not a 100% yes, it had to be a no.

You don't have the power to forgive sins period, the punishment for sins will still be coming for non Christians even if you forgive them for committing them against you.

Can you not forgive those who sin against you?
I have said all I am going to say on the subject.
.

 

[NBB]

Yes.....God gave us certain gifts, but the "Sign Gifts" were given to the ELEVEN Apostles as recorded in Mark and Matthew and not to you or me today.

This is sorry but stupid, we need to fight the devil when hes oppresing lives the closer you get to God the more demons you are going to 'see', where the Holy spirit is there is freedom, this happened so many times that people would start 'manifesting' themselves screaming and i don't know what else in churches and a pastor or minister would in the name of Jesus drive the demons away from the person. And is always believers.

Brother, there is people being free from the devil and you are going to stick to that mistaken doctrine that believers are not said to be able to cast them out?.

More false this thought cannot be!

Tongues too...

 

[Major1]

This is sorry but stupid, we need to fight the devil when hes oppresing lives the closer you get to God the more demons you are going to 'see', where the Holy spirit is there is freedom, this happened so many times that people would start 'manifesting' themselves screaming and i don't know what else in churches and a pastor or minister would in the name of Jesus drive the demons away from the person. And is always believers.

Brother, there is people being free from the devil and you are going to stick to that mistaken doctrine that believers are not said to be able to cast them out?.

More false this thought cannot be!

Tongues too...

Please post from the Bible those Scriptures that support your opinion.

 

[Major1]

That's it then, God died at the end of the apostolic age.
.

What an outrageous comment to make.

No wonder you are having such a problem with understanding what Mark and Matthew said.

 

[Francis Drake]

Please post from the Bible those Scriptures that support your opinion.

Mark16v17And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
I have seen and done this for over 40 years.

 

[Major1]

Ok I don’t dispute this, my point was that these gifts were not exclusively given to the 11 apostles. As far as speaking tongues goes today I just try to avoid such conversations. I will say that I am extremely skeptical about it today but I don’t rule out the possibility. You know, God told Noah that He would not endure man past 120 years and yet Abraham lived to be 175 years old. So I think it’s possible that there are exceptions God makes from time to time and our misunderstanding could be the result of bad translation or a different use of the phrase at the time He said it. One thing I have said before on the topic of speaking & interpreting tongues is I would love to see an actual test on the validity of this by simply recording people speaking in tongues and have people translate them and see how many of the translations match. I mean if I could do it and it as real I would be all too eager to prove it.

But your post is NOT what the Scriptures actually say is it my brother????

God DID NOT tell Noah man would not endure past 120 years.

Gen. 6:3 ........
"Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

CONTEXT always determines the correctness of interpretation.

If you will carefully read the 1st two verses of Genesis 6 you will find the CONTXT and it IS NOT about how long Noah will live.

In the first half of v.3 the Lord declares He cannot allow these dire circumstances to exist indefinitely, saying His Spirit will not strive with men forever. God would eventually act to correct this problem or else mankind itself would be threatened by the demons' actions. So in the second half of v.3, the Lord sets a limit on His patience. He declares mankind's existence on earth ***under these circumstances*** will be limited to 120 years. God was not speaking of a single person's lifespan but of the time until the flood would come. In 120 years, a flood would come and erase all life from the earth.

Notice in v.3 the Lord said that man's days "were numbered," referring to a coming judgment.

Now then.....if you were so wrong on this one point, why do you think that your opinion of TONGUES is now correct??????

Do you think that you should be open to maybe learn what is Biblical and what is not????

 

[NBB]

Please post from the Bible those Scriptures that support your opinion.

MAry Magdalane says it had 7 demons expulsed from her.

 

[Major1]

Mark16v17And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
I have seen and done this for over 40 years.

"THEM" in Mark 16:17 refers to the ELEVEN as recorded in verse #14.

In the Greek grammar, the "ANTECEDENT" of the word THEM in verse #17 is actually the ELEVEN in verse #14.

Definition of antecedent
Definition of ANTECEDENT
grammar : a substantive word, phrase, or clause whose denotation is referred to by a pronoun that typically follows the substantive (such as John in "Mary saw John and called to him")broadly : a word or phrase replaced by a substitute

You are free to believe anything you want to believe. You are just as free to believe that you have cast out demons if you want to and that you speak in tongues and make sounds that no one understands.

All I can tell you is that the Bible can not be used to validate what you believe that you want to do. The GREEK GRAMMER simply does not allow it to be the case.

YOU are NOT one of the ELEVEN as you posted from Mark 16.
YOU are not an Apostle and YOU and no one else has the Sign Gifts.

No need to argue that point with me, go and use any Greek concordance, Strong's, Vines or anything else and you will find that they confirm what I just said.