Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[Albion]

So, because you question the use of the Sign gifts, you are thought to be an Atheist???

That was a bit of a shock, I agree.

 

[1an]

Please do that to me!!!!!!!!

NO.

 

[1an]

I see that you have been placed on "IGNORE" by Ian. You are a bad boy but please tell me how you did that!!!!

So, because you question the use of the Sign gifts, you are thought to be an Atheist???

Many years agao when I was a teenager, the local Pentecostal church taught us to approach others when witnessing with this question........
"Are you born again with the EVIDENCE of speaking in tongues".

I later learned that this was the denominational approach to evenalism.

The problem is obvious isn't it????

IF I am born again I will be able to prove it by speaking in tongues.

Wrong on all counts.
.

 

[1an]

Agree. There is a huge diffeerence between Charismatic and Pentecostalism.

It is more likely to be a problem with the local church.
.

 

[Matthew Jay Safley]

More precisely, it was meant for Jews to believe that Christ is their Messiah that was promised to them (John 20:30-31).

Well then how do you explain the day at the Pentecost when people with diverse tongues filled with the Spirit started to be able to understand each other. This miracle was not for the Jews, for they for the most part spoke the same language: this miracle seems to have been directed specially towards the gentiles. Perhaps the soul purpose of speaking in tongues is to speak the gospel to people of other tongues, and whether they have the gift of interpreting tongues, the Spirit will take over and speak the love of Jesus Christ and the good news of the Gospel. I would assume that if there was speaking in tongues, for the purpose of reaching to the gentiles, then the other gifts of the Spirit were/are (not sure if it's still present or if it died out) meant to reach the gentiles as well.

 

[Guojing]

Well then how do you explain the day at the Pentecost when people with diverse tongues filled with the Spirit started to be able to understand each other. This miracle was not for the Jews, for they for the most part spoke the same language: this miracle seems to have been directed specially towards the gentiles. Perhaps the soul purpose of speaking in tongues is to speak the gospel to people of other tongues, and whether they have the gift of interpreting tongues, the Spirit will take over and speak the love of Jesus Christ and the good news of the Gospel. I would assume that if there was speaking in tongues, for the purpose of reaching to the gentiles, then the other gifts of the Spirit were/are (not sure if it's still present or if it died out) meant to reach the gentiles as well.

Acts 2 is purely to Israel and Jews, see the following:

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

 

[GooFYone]

Is that part of the question on the thread????

Obviously

 

[Healing with Jesus]

In a previous post, #79, I shared my belief that continuationism is the way of the Lord. Well, I am officially on the fence now and seriously considering cessationalism. Here's why.

I met someone on a Christian website who said he has the gift of healing. We spoke and shared our testimonies. I was confused about his testimony. He mentioned a dramatic healing that occured in his life. I asked him when Jesus Christ became his Savior, but he didn't have a solid answer. I said, maybe when you got that healing? And he agreed.

I told him about my physical ailments and he said he would pray for my healing. As he did, my whole body felt full of heat. Then I felt very cold. So cold, I was shaking and needed a blanket. I told my new friend how cool it would be to be healed, because I have an obvious physical deformity in my body.

We hung up. I stood up and absentmindedly felt my body. What?! I checked myself in the mirror. I was healed! Not perfectly. But much improved, 90%. I was in disbelief, frankly. I mean, I had enough faith to believe God *could* heal me. But to have my body improved so drastically was truly shocking.

I called my friend back immediately, joyously praising the Lord and expressing my excitement. My friend spoke in what he calls tongues, the unknown "spiritual" babble (which I also did, up until the resolution of this experience, which I will describe). He urged me to continue to stand on the promises of God and he warned me that the devil would try to make me question whether I had actually been healed.

The next day, I felt better physically than I had for a over decade. I could move without pain, carry heavy things with no problems. My face was refreshed and I looked more vital and youthful.

I kept thanking God and praying to Him that the healing would not take me away from Him. My physical ailments have made me very dependent on the Lord over the years, and I was very worried about losing that dependency.

My friend said that now I could be dependent on God because I wanted to be, not because I needed to be. He also said some other things that line up with the health and wealth preaching, which I was deaf to at the time. Like, God has a perfect [whatever body part] so you can have that too, God doesn't want you to suffer, He wants you to be able to serve fully, etc.

I kept praying and praising God, but I started to feel confused and worried as the week went on. My healing was fading. I was worried it was because I had sinned. I was in such a web of confusion, I can't even tell you how deep! I started to feel depressed and worried and far away from God. I couldn't tell if I was being convicted or condemned. It was bad.

Then also as the week went on, I got to know this "friend" of mine better and was hurt by his conduct. He behaved in an unloving way to me. At first, I didn't think too much of it and just brushed it off. But then it got even worse. And I realized that his character was not of someone who is drawing closer to the Lord. Finally, the puzzle pieces were fitting together.

I told him that my healing was fading and he accused me of losing faith. I told him it was a counterfeit miracle. He said God doesn't do counterfeit miracles. I said that I prayed for God to take the healing away if it wasn't from Him. And he scoffed. I warned him to ask the Lord what kind of fruit he is bearing, and I'm not so sure that he is my brother.

We are no longer in contact. I am happily living with my physical deformity again, and my spirit is intact. This was a terrifying reminder that the devil masquerades as an angel of light.

Is the Lord moving in the Church via healings, tongues, and other sign gifts? I truly don't know.

 

[Albion]

Is the Lord moving in the Church via healings, tongues, and other sign gifts? I truly don't know.

Two thoughts:

1. There is very little to indicate that the friend healed you thanks to having been given the gift of healing by the Holy Spirit.

If we were to assume that healing did occur, it sounds more like something resulting from the power of prayer.

2. Cessationists do not normally contend that none of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as described in Corinthians can ever be present in anyone today under any circumstances. None. Never.

Rather, it is that the widespread and significant manifestation of them which characterized the early church and which enabled it to spread the faith into a pagan world gradually declined until they became rare and occasional.

 

[1an]

In a previous post, #79, I shared my belief that continuationism is the way of the Lord. Well, I am officially on the fence now and seriously considering cessationalism. Here's why.

I met someone on a Christian website who said he has the gift of healing. We spoke and shared our testimonies. I was confused about his testimony. He mentioned a dramatic healing that occured in his life. I asked him when Jesus Christ became his Savior, but he didn't have a solid answer. I said, maybe when you got that healing? And he agreed.

I told him about my physical ailments and he said he would pray for my healing. As he did, my whole body felt full of heat. Then I felt very cold. So cold, I was shaking and needed a blanket. I told my new friend how cool it would be to be healed, because I have an obvious physical deformity in my body.

We hung up. I stood up and absentmindedly felt my body. What?! I checked myself in the mirror. I was healed! Not perfectly. But much improved, 90%. I was in disbelief, frankly. I mean, I had enough faith to believe God *could* heal me. But to have my body improved so drastically was truly shocking.

I called my friend back immediately, joyously praising the Lord and expressing my excitement. My friend spoke in what he calls tongues, the unknown "spiritual" babble (which I also did, up until the resolution of this experience, which I will describe). He urged me to continue to stand on the promises of God and he warned me that the devil would try to make me question whether I had actually been healed.

The next day, I felt better physically than I had for a over decade. I could move without pain, carry heavy things with no problems. My face was refreshed and I looked more vital and youthful.

I kept thanking God and praying to Him that the healing would not take me away from Him. My physical ailments have made me very dependent on the Lord over the years, and I was very worried about losing that dependency.

My friend said that now I could be dependent on God because I wanted to be, not because I needed to be. He also said some other things that line up with the health and wealth preaching, which I was deaf to at the time. Like, God has a perfect [whatever body part] so you can have that too, God doesn't want you to suffer, He wants you to be able to serve fully, etc.

I kept praying and praising God, but I started to feel confused and worried as the week went on. My healing was fading. I was worried it was because I had sinned. I was in such a web of confusion, I can't even tell you how deep! I started to feel depressed and worried and far away from God. I couldn't tell if I was being convicted or condemned. It was bad.

Then also as the week went on, I got to know this "friend" of mine better and was hurt by his conduct. He behaved in an unloving way to me. At first, I didn't think too much of it and just brushed it off. But then it got even worse. And I realized that his character was not of someone who is drawing closer to the Lord. Finally, the puzzle pieces were fitting together.

I told him that my healing was fading and he accused me of losing faith. I told him it was a counterfeit miracle. He said God doesn't do counterfeit miracles. I said that I prayed for God to take the healing away if it wasn't from Him. And he scoffed. I warned him to ask the Lord what kind of fruit he is bearing, and I'm not so sure that he is my brother.

We are no longer in contact. I am happily living with my physical deformity again, and my spirit is intact. This was a terrifying reminder that the devil masquerades as an angel of light.

Is the Lord moving in the Church via healings, tongues, and other sign gifts? I truly don't know.

Well, I will tell you about my ongoing experience. The cartilage has gone in my right knee. The Xray shows pieces of bone embedded in the surrounding flesh. I could not bend down to pick anything up off the ground, kneeling was impossible and to get out of a chair, I had to leaver myself up. The pain was intense. But now I am out of pain, I can get out of the armchair, without holding onto anything, I can kneel and I can pick the dogs ball up from off the grass no problem. I was all set for surgery, until the hospital discovered I have a blood infection that affects only 1 person in a 100. There is no cure. The surgeon refuses to operate because he says if it turns to gangrene I will lose my leg. But now I am walking fine. Nobody has done anything, but here I am as large as life. I thank God. Thank you Lord for healing me Amen.
God bless.
.

 

[Healing with Jesus]

2. Cessationists do not normally contend that none of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as described in Corinthians can ever be present in anyone today under any circumstances. None. Never.

Rather, it is that the widespread and significant manifestation of them which characterized the early church and which enabled it to spread the faith into a pagan world gradually declined until they became rare and occasional.

I appreciate your reply. I am not sure about none and never, though. I was involved at a Bible church for about a year. They taught that God no longer performs miracles. That teaching made me want to be more of a continuationist because they were telling God what He couldn't do. That made me very uncomfortable.

I think GotQuestions has a good summary of the cessationist theology:
"Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs."
From Is cessationism biblical? What is a cessationist? | GotQuestions.org

What do most cessationists believe about prophecy, dreams, and how God communicates with us? I'm confused about that. Even before the Holy Spirit came to indwell every believer, people in the OT had dreams, etc. from God. So do cessationists believe that has stopped?

If so, how does God communicate with believers about our lives? Is this done strictly through studious Spirit-led application of the Scriptures and the renewing of our minds in Christ Jesus?

 

[Albion]

Isn't the gift of the Holy Spirit that is referred to as the gift of healing about the recipient being able to miraculously heal OTHER PEOPLE? Yet, time and again, I hear people of faith saying that they got better themselves, so that must be because they received this gift of healing.

 

[Albion]

I appreciate your reply. I am not sure about none and never, though.

Well, that's why I said "normally." When it comes to religious doctrine, we probably should never say never because there are always exceptions somewhere or other, such as the people you are referring to here.

I was involved at the Bible church for about a year. They taught that God no longer performs miracles.

But this POV strikes me as really peculiar. God supposedly performs NO miracles of any kind today? Whew.

That teaching made me want to be more of a continuationist because they were telling God what He couldn't do. That made me very uncomfortable.

I think GotQuestions has a good summary of the cessationist theology:
"Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs."

Yes, GotQuestions seems like a good reference source, but in this reply that you are quoting, I think we have to be careful to understand it correctly. A reader could take it to mean that God no longer performs miracles, using people. What I think it means instead is that He no longer uses individuals as performers, meaning that they are no longer used, routinely, to demonstrate the truth of the Gospel to unbelievers. That, of course, is what did happen in the early days of the Church.

What do most cessationalists believe about prophecy, dreams, and how God communicates with us? I'm confused about that. Even before the Holy Spirit came to indwell every believer, people in the OT had dreams, etc. from God. So do cessationists believe that has stopped?

Prophesy and dream interpretation aren't at all the same thing, even though all sorts of people assume that if they have a dream that has them doing something that might relate to religion, that it's a vision or direct revelation, etc.

If so, how does God communicate with believers about our lives? Is this done strictly through studious Spirit-led application of the Scriptures and the renewing of our minds in Christ Jesus?

Because you are asking me a personal question, I'll have to say "yes." That is my view. God gave us his revelation, his word, in the Holy Scriptures. That is how he communicated what we need to know.

That doesn't mean that he absolutely never goes outside of that frame with something personal, and he did send the Holy Spirit to guide His church, but the idea many people have that they are to await a personal move of the Holy Spirit in the form of some kind of brainstorm and do this before any decisions or etc. are made, even the most trivial, is a mistake.

 

[Healing with Jesus]

Prophesy and dream interpretation aren't at all the same thing, even though all sorts of people assume that if they have a dream that has them doing something that might relate to religion, that it's a vision or direct revelation, etc.

So, other than dreams, do you believe that the Holy Spirit still grants prophetic insights?

That doesn't mean that he absolutely never goes outside of that frame with something personal, and he did send the Holy Spirit to guide His church, but the idea many people have that they are to await a personal move of the Holy Spirit in the form of some kind of brainstorm and do this before any decisions or etc. are made, even the most trivial, is a mistake.

So, to clarify, when it comes to understanding the Lord's will for our lives, the Holy Spirit's main role is helping us to understand the Scriptures and to apply His wisdom (from the Bible) to our own situations?

 

[Albion]

So, other than dreams, do you believe that the Holy Spirit still grants prophetic insights?

Of course he can, and I don't doubt that he does. But that doesn't mean that every believer should expect that to be how he is led or that it is very common in any case. Yet I encounter people often, it seems, who think that this is the normal or only way that they should expect things to go.

So, to clarify, when it comes to understanding the Lord's will for our lives, the Holy Spirit's main role is helping us to understand the Scriptures and to apply His wisdom (from the Bible) to our own situations?

The main way that we are led is by the Scriptures, yes.