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Who is "National Israel"?

Davy

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Let me give you an example. Take romans 10:1, how could you reason which Israel is that Israel referring to?

He is pointing to all Israel in general, but getting ready to lead into the subject of his brethren, the Jews in the Romans 11 chapter.

Who do you think Paul is pointing to here...

Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

KJV


It's important to remember that after God removed the ten tribe "house of Israel" kingdom, and scattered them to make them lose their heritage as part of Israel, the only people 'known' as Israel left in the land were the Jews of the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem/Judea. So the name Israel is still used for the "house of Judah", simply because they were the only ones left to represent the children of Israel in the holy land, even as it is still today, since the ten tribes are still lost to the world, and to the Jews.

This is why some Jewish scholars believe the ten tribes are forever lost. Yet some of them recognize prophecy in God's Word about their gathering back to the holy land in final.

The majority of that blindness God put upon Israel that Paul speaks of is about the unbelieving Jews, which he further shows with their being enemies of The Gospel. And that identifier of being enemies of The Gospel should be easy to figure out that's about the orthodox unbelieving Jew, and not scattered ten tribers who don't have a clue who they really are.
 
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Guojing

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He is pointing to all Israel in general, but getting ready to lead into the subject of his brethren, the Jews in the Romans 11 chapter.

Who do you think Paul is pointing to here...

Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

KJV


It's important to remember that after God removed the ten tribe "house of Israel" kingdom, and scattered them to make them lose their heritage as part of Israel, the only people 'known' as Israel left in the land were the Jews of the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem/Judea. So the name Israel is still used for the "house of Judah", simply because they were the only ones left to represent the children of Israel in the holy land, even as it is still today, since the ten tribes are still lost to the world, and to the Jews.

This is why some Jewish scholars believe the ten tribes are forever lost. Yet some of them recognize prophecy in God's Word about their gathering back to the holy land in final.

The majority of that blindness God put upon Israel that Paul speaks of is about the unbelieving Jews, which he further shows with their being enemies of The Gospel. And that identifier of being enemies of The Gospel should be easy to figure out that's about the orthodox unbelieving Jew, and not scattered ten tribers who don't have a clue who they really are.

To me, Israel always refers to the entire nation, all 12 tribes, unless the context clearly states otherwise
 
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Davy

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To me, Israel always refers to the entire nation, all 12 tribes, unless the context clearly states otherwise

Well, doing that would be to reject a lot of Bible prophecy given only for the ten tribes that were split from the house of Judah.

Heb 8:8-10
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people:

KJV

Paul is quoting that from the Jeremiah 31. It is about the joining of the two houses, the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah". So you can't see those two separate houses described there, even in The New Testament?

Even Lord Jesus remarked that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24). If He also meant the "house of Judah", when why have the majority of the Jews of the "house of Judah" rejected Him, even as it still is today???

Jer 3:18
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

KJV

1 Kings 12:21-24
21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.

22 But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying,
23 Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying,
24 Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from me. They hearkened therefore to the word of the LORD, and returned to depart, according to the word of the LORD.
KJV


You have a whole lot of work to do with tearing out all the pages of God's Word where He makes a distinction between those two 'houses'.
 
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Guojing

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Well, doing that would be to reject a lot of Bible prophecy given only for the ten tribes that were split from the house of Judah.

Heb 8:8-10
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people:

KJV

Paul is quoting that from the Jeremiah 31. It is about the joining of the two houses, the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah". So you can't see those two separate houses described there, even in The New Testament?

Even Lord Jesus remarked that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24). If He also meant the "house of Judah", when why have the majority of the Jews of the "house of Judah" rejected Him, even as it still is today???

Jer 3:18
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

KJV

1 Kings 12:21-24
21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.

22 But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying,
23 Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying,
24 Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from me. They hearkened therefore to the word of the LORD, and returned to depart, according to the word of the LORD.
KJV


You have a whole lot of work to do with tearing out all the pages of God's Word where He makes a distinction between those two 'houses'.

I already said unless the context clearly split them up.
 
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keras

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I already said unless the context clearly split them up.
Which it generally does. Over 160 Bible prophesies maintain the separation between the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
Ezekiel 37 describes their eventual rejoining, which remains to happen in the future.
The prophesies tell us about their different destinies until that time.
Amos 2:4-5 about Judah and Amos 2:6 thru to Amos 9:13-15, for Israel.
 
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BABerean2

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As I said, I believe there is a reason why the KJV translators used the English word testament in 2 Cor 3:6, but used covenant in Hebrews 8:8.


And what is the reason that they translated the same Greek word "diatheke" as covenant in some places, and testament in other places?


Reformed Covenant Theology has a tendency to ignore the New Covenant.
The term "new covenant" is not found in the Westminster Confession of Faith, nor is it in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith.
In my humble opinion, the facts above are the reason for the inconsistent translation.

.
 
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BABerean2

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Ezekiel 37 describes their eventual rejoining, which remains to happen in the future.

Many people believe Ezekiel 37 is about 1948.
Were the two houses joined back together as one stick through the New Covenant fulfilled by Christ's blood at Calvary?
Are the Dry Bones related to the future bodily resurrection of the dead?


Claim: The “Dry Bones” of Ezekiel chapter 37 prove that God restored the land to the Jews during 1948.



Ezekiel begins the book in verse 1, of chapter 1, revealing that he is among the captives. Therefore, the land restoration that followed his time would have occurred when the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon, instead of 1948. The “dry bones” in the passage coming back to life can also refer to the future bodily resurrection, and judgment of the dead described by Christ in the passage below.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


There is also a deeper meaning found in the passage once we understand the purpose of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was fulfilled at Calvary.


In verse 14 God says He will put His spirit in the people. The Holy Spirit is an essential part of the New Covenant found below. What is circumcision of the heart?


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;

Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


Notice what we find about Israel and Judah being not divided anymore in the verse below, and then compare it to the promise of the New Covenant.


Eze 37:19 say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand." '


Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—



Were Israel and Judah put back together as one stick during 1948, or were they put back together when the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ at Calvary?


Look at the verse below which refers to the people of God from Ezekiel and compare it to the New Covenant verse from Jeremiah.


Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.



Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.




Will King David be over Israel “forever”, or will it be David’s offspring who will sit on David’s throne, as revealed by Peter on the Day of Pentecost? What is the “everlasting” covenant found in Hebrews 13:20? It is found below in Ezekiel 37?


Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.



Who is the “sanctuary” of the New Covenant, who will be with His people “forever” at the end of the Book of Revelation? Is it the Son of God, or is it David?


By making Ezekiel 37 about the modern State of Israel established by the God-less United Nations during 1948, modern Dispensational Theology has hidden the deeper meaning of the passage. Is the passage referring to the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary, or is it referring to 1948? Which interpretation reveals the Glory of God’s Son, who died to bring the house of Israel and the house of Judah back together into one stick, under the New Covenant fulfilled by His blood?


.
 
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Guojing

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And what is the reason that they translated the same Greek word "diatheke" as covenant in some places, and testament in other places?


Reformed Covenant Theology has a tendency to ignore the New Covenant.
The term "new covenant" is not found in the Westminster Confession of Faith, nor is it in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith.
In my humble opinion, the facts above are the reason for the inconsistent translation.

.

Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles (Romans 11:13), preaching the gospel of the uncircumcision (Galatians 2:7-9.

The New Covenant is cut with the nation Israel.

Why would Paul then talk to us gentiles as sufficient ministers of the New Covenant, when he is the apostle to the Gentiles?

Thus, it makes sense that the KJV used the term Testament, instead of covenant, in 2 Cor 3:6.
 
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BABerean2

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Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles (Romans 11:13), preaching the gospel of the uncircumcision (Galatians 2:7-9.

The New Covenant is cut with the nation Israel.

Why would Paul then talk to us gentiles as sufficient ministers of the New Covenant, when he is the apostle to the Gentiles?


Paul used the Greek word "diatheke" in the passage below from his letter to the church at Corinth.


2 Corinthians 3:6

(ESV) who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

(ESV+) who has made us sufficient to be R2ministers of R3a new covenant, not of R4the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but R5the Spirit gives life.

(Geneva) Who also hath made vs able ministers of the Newe testament, not of the letter, but of the Spirite: for the letter killeth, but the Spirite giueth life.

(GW) He has also qualified us to be ministers of a new promise, a spiritual promise, not a written one. Clearly, what was written brings death, but the Spirit brings life.

(KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

(KJV+) WhoG3739 alsoG2532 hath made us ableG2427 G2248 ministersG1249 of the newG2537 testament;G1242 notG3756 of the letter,G1121 butG235 of the spirit:G4151 forG1063 theG3588 letterG1121 killeth,G615 butG1161 theG3588 spiritG4151 giveth life.G2227

(NKJV) who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

(YLT) who also made us sufficient to be ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.


.
 
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Guojing

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Paul used the Greek word "diatheke" in the passage below from his letter to the church at Corinth.


2 Corinthians 3:6

(ESV) who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

(ESV+) who has made us sufficient to be R2ministers of R3a new covenant, not of R4the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but R5the Spirit gives life.

(Geneva) Who also hath made vs able ministers of the Newe testament, not of the letter, but of the Spirite: for the letter killeth, but the Spirite giueth life.

(GW) He has also qualified us to be ministers of a new promise, a spiritual promise, not a written one. Clearly, what was written brings death, but the Spirit brings life.

(KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

(KJV+) WhoG3739 alsoG2532 hath made us ableG2427 G2248 ministersG1249 of the newG2537 testament;G1242 notG3756 of the letter,G1121 butG235 of the spirit:G4151 forG1063 theG3588 letterG1121 killeth,G615 butG1161 theG3588 spiritG4151 giveth life.G2227

(NKJV) who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

(YLT) who also made us sufficient to be ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.


.

I have already presented my argument why I regard the kjv translators as correct when they used the English word testament, to capture the true meaning in that verse.

Greek words are like that, the same word can have multiple different meanings in English, you have to determine exactly which one based on the other Greeks words around it.
 
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jgr

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I have already presented my argument why I regard the kjv translators as correct when they used the English word testament, to capture the true meaning in that verse.

Greek words are like that, the same word can have multiple different meanings in English, you have to determine exactly which one based on the other Greeks words around it.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Greek

1242. diathéké
Strong's Concordance
diathéké: testament, will, covenant

No difference.

Synonymous and equivalent.
 
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Zao is life

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So the term Israel can mean different things, depending on how you want it to fit whatever doctrine you want?
Paul used the words "Israel" and "Jews" interchangeably but it was Paul who quoted the prophecy in Hosea which refers to the house of Israel and applied it to the Gentiles. It was also Paul who stated that all the natural seed of Israel who reject Christ are broken off from Israel, and the only way they can be grafted back into their own olive tree again is through repentance and faith in Christ.

It is John the Baptist who told the Jews that they should not think to say, "We have Abraham for our father because God is able to raise up children to Abraham from the stones". It was Jesus who told those of the Jews who were deriding Him and yet claiming Abraham for their father that they are of their father the devil.

It is Jesus, John the Baptist, Paul who teach that genetic ancestry counts zero, zilch, nada for anyone who rejects Christ. They are not citizens of Israel merely because they were born genetic descendants of Abraham, said Paul.

It is Guojing who sates otherwise. You're showing that you have your own 'gospel of the kingdom of Christ' and what Jesus Himself, Paul, and John the Baptist said means nothing to you. They are wrong, and you are right.
 
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Zao is life

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I have already presented my argument why I regard the kjv translators as correct when they used the English word testament, to capture the true meaning in that verse.

Greek words are like that, the same word can have multiple different meanings in English, you have to determine exactly which one based on the other Greeks words around it.

There is only one meaning of the words Testament and Covenant in the Bible. They mean the same thing. Are you an English speaker? If not, don't argue with English speaking people. We know our language. If your mother-tongue is English, go to school and get some English classes. You will discover that there are many things which have more than one English word for the same thing. Americans say living room. English say lounge or sitting room (three words for the same thing). Americans say sofa. English say couch or settee. Three words for the same thing. Some English Bibles say Testament. Others say Covenant. The new Testament = the New Covenant. Same thing.
 
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keras

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Many people believe Ezekiel 37 is about 1948.
Were the two houses joined back together as one stick through the New Covenant fulfilled by Christ's blood at Calvary?
Are the Dry Bones related to the future bodily resurrection of the dead?


Claim: The “Dry Bones” of Ezekiel chapter 37 prove that God restored the land to the Jews during 1948.
That is not my claim.
Judah and Israel have not rejoined as yet, proved by how the Blessings promised for when that happens, have not been received yet.
It will happen soon after the Sixth Seal event, when all of God's Christian people will gather in the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38
 
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BABerean2

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That is not my claim.
Judah and Israel have not rejoined as yet, proved by how the Blessings promised for when that happens, have not been received yet.
It will happen soon after the Sixth Seal event, when all of God's Christian people will gather in the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38


If the two houses have not being joined together under the New Covenant fulfilled at Calvary, the author of the Book of Hebrews was very confused in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:22-24.


.
 
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Guojing

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There is only one meaning of the words Testament and Covenant in the Bible. They mean the same thing. Are you an English speaker? If not, don't argue with English speaking people. We know our language. If your mother-tongue is English, go to school and get some English classes. You will discover that there are many things which have more than one English word for the same thing. Americans say living room. English say lounge or sitting room (three words for the same thing). Americans say sofa. English say couch or settee. Three words for the same thing. Some English Bibles say Testament. Others say Covenant. The new Testament = the New Covenant. Same thing.

there are native English speakers who distinguished between the 2 in this case.

do you want to hear them?
 
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jgr

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there are native English speakers who distinguished between the 2 in this case.

do you want to hear them?

Do they tell us which scholars before the 19th century distinguished between the 2?
 
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Zao is life

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there are native English speakers who distinguished between the 2 in this case.

do you want to hear them?
No because they don't know what they're talking about any more than you do if they say the words Testament and Covenant when used in reference to any agreement, promise or contract God makes with mankind is not referring to the same thing or does not mean the same thing.
 
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