Poll: When Are The Orthodox Jews Saved?

[DavidPT]

Likewise, per Revelation 3:9, Jesus said He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" come worship at the feet of His elect in the future, for that has never... happened to this day.

And the sad thing about that verse, I have personally seen members on this board use that verse to show their contempt for the Jews. The only part they would quote is the following, or if they did quote the entire verse, this part they would put in bold letters----the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie

But when I asked them about the following part, they pretty much didn't even bother to provide an answer---Behold, I will make them ---I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

IMO, we see the fulfillment of this recorded in Isaiah 60 per the following.

Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

This appears to be in NHNE context, BTW.

 

[Davy]

I voted your last option, "When the fullness of the Gentiles is complete on the day of Christ's return" but I would add a couple of riders. I expect a revival among the Jews, but it will be a widespread acceptance of Jesus - not a salvation based on race. Also, I assume that it will have started somewhat earlier than the actual *day* of Christ's return.

I only see the revival to Christ by the Jews when He returns, not before. And that per the end of Zechariah 12. They will literally mourn for Him like a long lost son, and in shame because of their deception to the Antichrist, wanting for the hills and mountains to fall upon them.

As I said in a previous post, the Rev.7 and Rev.9 reveal about the 'sealing' with God's Seal to keep from the stinging of the locust army. That's the sealing by The Holy Spirit, and it is only for those in Christ Jesus. We are still in that time of sealing today. But once that time of sealing is over, each person will remain in the belief they began the tribulation in, because this coming pseudo-Christ is going to be so deception in playing Lord Jesus, and the Jew's Messiah (they will think), that many Christian brethren will also fall away to the strong delusion.

 

[Davy]

And the sad thing about that verse, I have personally seen members on this board use that verse to show their contempt for the Jews. The only part they would quote is the following, or if they did quote the entire verse, this part they would put in bold letters----the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie

But when I asked them about the following part, they pretty much didn't even bother to provide an answer---Behold, I will make them ---I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

IMO, we see the fulfillment of this recorded in Isaiah 60 per the following.

Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

This appears to be in NHNE context, BTW.

I believe it is Millennial context, during Christ's future 1,000 years reign. A parallel would be those at the end of Zech.14 that are left of the armies that came up against Jerusalem.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Yes, that is true. But Romans 11 by Apostle Paul is true too. That means WHEN a person's time to hear and believe on Christ is not... up to us. So we are not to judge ANYONE to condemnation to the lake of fire. We have no authority to judge that, for we do not know who will perish, except only Satan and his angels so far.

We should never say, "You are going to hell" either. We can say one is in danger for not believing on Christ Jesus, but we don't have authority to say who is going to perish.

I never said anything along the lines of "you are going to Hell" ostensibly because it is true that we do not know when someone may be saved by God. Even someone very vile and evil could one day be saved. Paul persecuted Christians and likely contributed to Stephen's death. It would be wrong to say he's going to Hell on an individual level. You might say that if you continue down the path of evil that that's the end result but one can never say a man won't be saved by God because we don't know.

 

[Douggg]

I only see the revival to Christ by the Jews when He returns, not before.

Who do you view the woman in Revelation 12 as being?

 

[Davy]

The blindness that has come over the Jews - is their choice. Because unlike the blind man who wanted to see, the Jews have set their hearts not to want to see. The same can be said for non-Jews.

Per Paul in Romans 11, God put their blindness upon them. The KJV has it as "spirit of slumber", but in the Greek it is 'stupor', lethargy. It's actually from Isaiah 29 where Paul was quoting.

So we cannot really say it's their choice, for Paul showed it is not, but by God's Hand. And why, per Paul? So The Gospel would go to the Gentiles.

 

[DavidPT]

I believe it is Millennial context, during Christ's future 1,000 years reign. A parallel would be those at the end of Zech.14 that are left of the armies that came up against Jerusalem.

I agree it's millennial context, yet I also tend to think the millennium may be the first thousand years of the NHNE. After all, most Premils agree that the NHNE mentioned in Isaiah 65 is meaning the millennium. There couldn't possibly be 2 sets of NHNEs, where one is temporary and the other is endless.

 

[Davy]

Who do you view the woman in Revelation 12 as being?

First mention in Rev.12 is about Israel per the Old Testament. Last mention is about the Church, those who keep God's commandments AND have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. That's His Church.

Recall Revelation 17:8, which is about the coming Antichrist beast king (Satan actually, since he ascends out of the bottomless pit, his home away from home). Notice that verse says the whole world will 'wonder' at that beast, except those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Likewise in Revelation 13:4-8 we are shown the whole world will worship that "dragon" (another title for Satan), except those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Who would that be then, whose names are written? That is who Rev.12 about the "woman" is pointing to, Christ's elect for this whole world time.

During the tribulation, who is 'sealed' by God? Rev.7 shows us 144,000 of the seed of the children of Israel. Then a great multitude of Gentiles are also shown having been saved, when suggests that they were sealed too. Both represent the symbolic latter woman of Rev.12 also.

 

[nolidad]

The blindness that has come over the Jews - is their choice. Because unlike the blind man who wanted to see, the Jews have set their hearts not to want to see. The same can be said for non-Jews.

That would be incorrect.

Romans 11:

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

 

[Douggg]

Per Paul in Romans 11, God put their blindness upon them. The KJV has it as "spirit of slumber", but in the Greek it is 'stupor', lethargy. It's actually from Isaiah 29 where Paul was quoting.

So we cannot really say it's their choice, for Paul showed it is not, but by God's Hand. And why, per Paul? So The Gospel would go to the Gentiles.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Do you think the Jews are jealous of Christians? I don't think so. They are resentful of Christians, but not jealous.

What would make them jealous would be Christians being raptured out of the world, not having to go through the great tribulation, while they the Jews have to go through it.

 

[Douggg]

First mention in Rev.12 is about Israel per the Old Testament. Last mention is about the Church, those who keep God's commandments AND have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. That's His Church.

It would not be the church in Revelation 12:17, but the Jews who did not flee out of Jerusalem in time, and will subject to persecution, as being believers in Jesus.

The church is not appointed unto the time of wrath, the wrath of God during that time, nor the wrath of Satan upon the inhabiters of the earth.

 

[Davy]

I agree it's millennial context, yet I also tend to think the millennium may be the first thousand years of the NHNE. After all, most Premils agree that the NHNE mentioned in Isaiah 65 is meaning the millennium. There couldn't possibly be 2 sets of NHNEs, where one is temporary and the other is endless.

I think the timing between the 1,000 years and the NHNE is not as distinct in the New Testament. It is more in the Old Testament prophets. I see some earth changes, like God's River, the Tree of Life, and God's House, on earth during Christ's 1,000 years reign (Ezekiel 47). We're even given it's general location on earth in the middle east. But the "lake of fire" destruction of Satan, death, hell and the wicked is where I see the dividing line when the NHNE will actually start.

 

[Davy]

It would not be the church in Revelation 12:17, but the Jews who did not flee out of Jerusalem in time, and will subject to persecution, as being believers in Jesus.

The church is not appointed unto the time of wrath, the wrath of God during that time, nor the wrath of Satan upon the inhabiters of the earth.

Well, that idea is from Pre-trib theory. And I know you said you weren't really Pre-trib, but sorry, if the show fits, wear it.

 

[Davy]

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Do you think the Jews are jealous of Christians? I don't think so. They are resentful of Christians, but not jealous.

What would make them jealous would be Christians being raptured out of the world, not having to go through the great tribulation, while they the Jews have to go through it.

Again, that's Pre-trib theory. No such idea as a rapture prior to the tribulation is written in God's Word.

 

[Douggg]

Well, that idea is from Pre-trib theory. And I know you said you weren't really Pre-trib, but sorry, if the show fits, wear it.

Davy, I was in the military, just like you, artillery, combat arms. You are going to get an Article 15, if you keep this up.

So stop with the saying that I am pre-trib view, when I say to you over and over I am a different view, anytime rapture view.

The problem probably is that you don't know what either view is.


The two charts below represent the anytime rapture view timing window, vs the pre-trib timing window.

 

[Douggg]

Again, that's Pre-trib theory. No such idea as a rapture prior to the tribulation is written in God's Word.

The rapture could happen pre-trib (pre-70th week). It is just that it is not mandatory, as pre-trib asserts.

From the forum rules:

Pre-tribulation: The pre-tribulation position advocates that the rapture will occur before the beginning of the seven-year tribulation period, while the second coming will occur at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. Pre-tribulationists often describe the rapture as Jesus coming for the church and the second coming as Jesus coming with the church.

Can you not express your view of when the Jews become Christians without reference to the rapture?

 

[jgr]

I only see the revival to Christ by the Jews when He returns, not before. And that per the end of Zechariah 12. They will literally mourn for Him like a long lost son, and in shame because of their deception to the Antichrist, wanting for the hills and mountains to fall upon them.

As I said in a previous post, the Rev.7 and Rev.9 reveal about the 'sealing' with God's Seal to keep from the stinging of the locust army. That's the sealing by The Holy Spirit, and it is only for those in Christ Jesus. We are still in that time of sealing today. But once that time of sealing is over, each person will remain in the belief they began the tribulation in, because this coming pseudo-Christ is going to be so deception in playing Lord Jesus, and the Jew's Messiah (they will think), that many Christian brethren will also fall away to the strong delusion.

Zechariah 12
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Don't forget to include Judas, Caiaphas, and all Jews responsible for Christ's death in your list of saved Jews. We'll be meeting and greeting them in heaven.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

[Douggg]

I think a lot of the disagreements over the subject matter of the thread is due to not recognizing there is the individual's response to salvation in Christ Jesus, and also there is the corporate response to salvation in Christ Jesus.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Per Paul in Romans 11, God put their blindness upon them. The KJV has it as "spirit of slumber", but in the Greek it is 'stupor', lethargy. It's actually from Isaiah 29 where Paul was quoting.

So we cannot really say it's their choice, for Paul showed it is not, but by God's Hand. And why, per Paul? So The Gospel would go to the Gentiles.

But, it was their choice to not believe in the first place.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

There was a reason that God blinded, or put in a spirit of slumber, some of the Jews and not others. It wasn't just random.