Poll: When Are The Orthodox Jews Saved?

[Davy]

I don't have an answer about the timing but I have speculated by looking at the Biblical type and comparing it with Zechariah 12-14:

* Joseph was hated by his brothers because he was beloved of his father and he had told them of the position of authority he dreamed he was to receive over them.

* At the instigation of Judah (Judas/Jews) Joseph was sold into slavery for 20 pieces of silver. Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

* Joseph's robe was dipped in blood to prove to his father that he was dead (except in this case it was not his own blood and it was a lie).

* Joseph was taken out of the dungeon by Pharaoh and highly exalted, receiving the highest position of authority with only Pharaoh himself excepted, and everyone in Egypt was to "bow the knee".

* Joseph took a Gentile bride.

When did Joseph reveal himself to his brothers who had come to him to buy grain?

When Judah showed remorse for what he had done:

Genesis 44:18-34. Judah is beseeching Joseph (literally begging him for mercy). Then...

"Then Joseph could not control himself before all those who stood by him. And he cried, Cause every man to go out from me! And no man stood before him while Joseph made himself known to his brothers.
2 And he wept aloud. And the Egyptians and the house of Pharaoh heard.
3 And Joseph said to his brothers, I am Joseph. Is my father still live? And his brothers could not answer him, for they were dismayed at his presence." Genesis 45

"And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be bitter over Him, as the bitterness over the first-born." Zechariah 12:10

Zechariah chapters 12-14 is one prophecy, and it's talking about the armies of all nations gathering against Jerusalem. So if this is the time, then it looks to me like when Jesus appears in the clouds - that's when those Jews who had still remained His enemy will repent. BUT if you're a Premillenialist then you will understand why I say that if that's the case, it will be too late for them to be part of the resurrection of those who died in Christ at the time of His appearance - but they will be saved when they repent, and will be ruled over by:

"And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

BUT I'M SPECULATING. Because I don't have an answer let alone "the answer" to the question of "when".

Well no, you are not really speculating, because you have the correct picture in your mind that those Scriptures reveal. Today, we do not know who all will perish in the future lake of fire, for that is not for us to judge. It is about accountability. If God blinds someone for His purpose, then how can that soul be accountable? Paul shows us in Romans 11 why God blinded so may of the Jews away from The Gospel. And Paul also showed how God will reclaim those in His Time, not ours. So someone who goes around judging unbelievers to the future lake of fire already is actually usurping Christ's Authority as Judge. We are not to do that, but instead pray for those who have not yet believed, because it is up to our Heavenly Father and His Son when they 'hear' and believe.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Evidently, there's some on this Forum that believe all those born into this world that did not believe on Jesus Christ during this present world are to perish at His 2nd coming.

God's Word does not teach any such thing, as Zechariah 14 with those who came up against Jerusalem are left over into Christ's future reign, and are made to go up and worship Him from year to year. Likewise, per Revelation 3:9, Jesus said He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" come worship at the feet of His elect in the future, for that has never... happened to this day.

Orthodox Jews are not saved and will not be saved until they have faith in Jesus Christ. When God chooses to convert individual Orthodox Jews is his business. Like all Jews (and indeed all people who do not believe) the Orthodox are condemned until such time as they are called to faith. This is an individual matter.

 

[Douggg]

That part I put in bold and underlined is a theory from Pre-trib. (and I know you are Pre-trib).

I just stated in previous post my rapture timing view is anytime rapture, not pre-trib view.

Pre-trib, pre-tribulation, is a rapture timing view. It is not an eschatology view.

You might want to brush up on Luke 23 also, where Jesus on His way to be crucified spoke to the women of Jerusalem that were crying for Him...

Luke 23:27-30
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.'
KJV

Jesus spoke those words to them who followed as he was on his way to be crucified. He was referring to 70 AD and the suffering that would come upon the Jews during that time, that they would say those things.

 

[Davy]

Orthodox Jews are not saved and will not be saved until they have faith in Jesus Christ. When God chooses to convert individual Orthodox Jews is his business. Like all Jews (and indeed all people who do not believe) the Orthodox are condemned until such time as they are called to faith. This is an individual matter.

Yes, that is true. But Romans 11 by Apostle Paul is true too. That means WHEN a person's time to hear and believe on Christ is not... up to us. So we are not to judge ANYONE to condemnation to the lake of fire. We have no authority to judge that, for we do not know who will perish, except only Satan and his angels so far.

We should never say, "You are going to hell" either. We can say one is in danger for not believing on Christ Jesus, but we don't have authority to say who is going to perish.

 

[Bond-servant of Christ]

There is NO person who is a lost, hell-bound sinner, that can EVER enter heaven, unless they first "REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel" (Mark 1:15)

Without repentance, there can be NO forgiveness of sins (Luke 24:47. ESV)
Without the forgiveness of sins, there can be NO heaven (Revelation 22:14-15)
Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God (Hebrews 11:6)
Without Confession and Belief you cannot be saved (Romans 10:5-13)

 

[Davy]

I just stated in previous post my rapture timing view is anytime rapture, not pre-trib view.

Pre-trib, pre-tribulation, is a rapture timing view. It is not an eschatology view.


Jesus spoke those words to them who followed as he was on his way to be crucified. He was referring to 70 AD and the suffering that would come upon the Jews during that time, that they would say those things.

I disagree, because that would put 70 A.D. as this timing...

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV


It's the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem, and per Zechariah 12, and Luke 23, that will be wishing for the mountains and rocks to fall upon them when Jesus appears. That didn't happen in 70 A.D. did it?

 

[Zao is life]

Well no, you are not really speculating, because you have the correct picture in your mind that those Scriptures reveal. Today, we do not know who all will perish in the future lake of fire, for that is not for us to judge. It is about accountability. If God blinds someone for His purpose, then how can that soul be accountable? Paul shows us in Romans 11 why God blinded so may of the Jews away from The Gospel. And Paul also showed how God will reclaim those in His Time, not ours. So someone who goes around judging unbelievers to the future lake of fire already is actually usurping Christ's Authority as Judge. We are not to do that, but instead pray for those who have not yet believed, because it is up to our Heavenly Father and His Son when they 'hear' and believe.

Yes we don't know how many people have secretly turned to Christ in prayer. There are quite a few people walking around in Islamic communities and probably also in Orthodox Jewish communities who are Christians but too afraid to say so, or waiting for the right time, or whatever. I prefer not to even think about who goes into the lake of fire. We do not have the privilege of not having to concern ourselves about our loved ones who have passed on without ever showing any faith in Christ. I've learned long ago not to think of it but to trust Christ's judgment because as you say, it's usurping Christ's authority as judge. I don't want anyone in the lake of fire but I know of people who have tortured others to death in the most animalistic depraved ways imaginable, and I don't want to see everyone get off "Scott-free" either.

 

[nolidad]

Why don't you tell everyone that you believe that all of the Jews who did not believe in Christ in the past and died will be resurrected and get a chance to be saved when He returns? And then see what kind of reaction you get to that.

Your poll is missing the correct option which is that each individual Jew is saved when they put their faith in Jesus Christ. Your corporate salvation gospel is not taught in scripture.

Maybe you should stop putting words in peoples mouth they did not speak!

 

[Davy]

There is NO person who is a lost, hell-bound sinner, that can EVER enter heaven, unless they first "REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel" (Mark 1:15)

Without repentance, there can be NO forgiveness of sins (Luke 24:47. ESV)
Without the forgiveness of sins, there can be NO heaven (Revelation 22:14-15)
Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God (Hebrews 11:6)
Without Confession and Belief you cannot be saved (Romans 10:5-13)

Yes, that has already been well established by those of us here who believe on Christ Jesus, like myself.

All... must confess and bow, but not all who do that will believe, for the wicked during Christ's future 1,000 years reign will confess Him, and bow to Him, but many of them still will not believe on Him.

 

[Davy]

Yes we don't know how many people have secretly turned to Christ in prayer. There are quite a few people walking around in Islamic communities and probably also in Orthodox Jewish communities who are Christians but too afraid to say so, or waiting for the right time, or whatever. I prefer not to even think about who goes into the lake of fire. We do not have the privilege of not having to concern ourselves about our loved ones who have passed on without ever showing any faith in Christ. I've learned long ago not to think of it but to trust Christ's judgment because as you say, it's usurping Christ's authority as judge. I don't want anyone in the lake of fire but I know of people who have tortured others to death in the most animalistic depraved ways imaginable, and I don't want to see everyone get off "Scott-free" either.

That's right, it's not for us to judge. Only Jesus has that Authority to judge one to condemnation into the future lake of fire.

 

[nolidad]

Why don't you tell everyone that you believe that all of the Jews who did not believe in Christ in the past and died will be resurrected and get a chance to be saved when He returns? And then see what kind of reaction you get to that.

Your poll is missing the correct option which is that each individual Jew is saved when they put their faith in Jesus Christ. Your corporate salvation gospel is not taught in scripture.

Since Pentecost, anyone who is saved is saved because of their faith in christ!

But as you forget that the New covenant is made with Israel and not this made up spiritual Israel (here is the covenant):

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

and you also forget that God declared this:

Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

When God says something shall or will come to pass--IT WILL COME TO PASS, unless you believe God was lying here!

 

[Zao is life]

That's right, it's not for us to judge. Only Jesus has that Authority to judge one to condemnation into the future lake of fire.

I'm going to stick my neck out with a completely extra-Biblical expression but sometimes I've thought that maybe one person in a family believing in Jesus kind of represents the entire family the way Adam and the last Adam represents the entire human race who are born of them.

 

[Douggg]

If God blinds someone for His purpose, then how can that soul be accountable?

The blindness that has come over the Jews - is their choice. Because unlike the blind man who wanted to see, the Jews have set their hearts not to want to see. The same can be said for non-Jews.

 

[Davy]

With all due respect, there should be another voting category, as some of us believe that at least some of the Jews in the world are already saved. The Vatican issued a statement a few years ago saying that "It is a mystery how the Jews are saved". Said statement implies that many Jews are indeed saved, without explaining why or how this happens. While I am not a Catholic, I do believe that many Jews are saved. I would also add that Conservative and Reform Jews should not be excluded from the possibility of salvation.

There are many Jews that have... accepted Jesus of Nazareth as their Savior, but still not the majority of them. The matter is about what Paul taught in Romans 11 about the spirit of slumber God put upon the Jews who would be made enemies of The Gospel. Paul showed about their election from God, and of a time when their blindness will be removed. So Paul was pointing to their salvation that will come once their blindness is removed by God's Hand, not ours. And he said that will happen when the 'fullness of the Gentiles be come in', which won't be complete until Jesus returns.

 

[nolidad]

How many people here do you think would agree with your false doctrine that many Jews who died in the past will get a chance to be saved when they are resurrected at Christ's return? Why don't you create a poll about that and see what happens.

You are such an angry person. You give an interpretation and your opinion and act like you have proven something and then you give this tough guy act to try to show your supposed authority.

If you can explain to me why in the world animal sacrifices would be reinstituted when Christ returns even though they were made obsolete long ago, then maybe I'll take you seriously. Can you do that?

Well why don't you ask him that statement directly? I don't see Him saying that Jews who died lost will get a second chance.

Ezekiel 43-46 show that sacrifices will take place in the Millenial temple.

As far as angry goes? The pot should not call the kettle.......

 

[Christian Gedge]

I voted your last option, "When the fullness of the Gentiles is complete on the day of Christ's return" but I would add a couple of riders. I expect a revival among the Jews, but it will be a widespread acceptance of Jesus - not a salvation based on race. Also, I assume that it will have started somewhat earlier than the actual *day* of Christ's return.

 

[Davy]

I'm going to stick my neck out with a completely extra-Biblical expression but sometimes I've thought that maybe one person in a family believing in Jesus kind of represents the entire family the way Adam and the last Adam represents the entire human race who are born of them.

Well, Paul showed in marriage one in disbelief still benefits from the other that believes. Yet we each still must believe to be saved. God's Word shows different times when that happens though. Apostle Paul is a prime example, because he didn't come to Christ and believe, Jesus came to him through divine intervention. And that happened to Paul while on his way to Damascus with authority from the Jews to deliver up Christians!

 

[Douggg]

I disagree, because that would put 70 A.D. as this timing...

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV


It's the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem, and per Zechariah 12, and Luke 23, that will be wishing for the mountains and rocks to fall upon them when Jesus appears. That didn't happen in 70 A.D. did it?

In Revelation 6, it is not referring to bringing the wrath of the Lamb on the Daughters of Jerusalem (Luke 23:28).

But on....

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Their admitting their Faith on Jesus Christ is kind of understood in my poll. We as Christians well know that ALL MUST believe on Jesus Christ to be saved. The question is 'when' for those orthodox Jews, because Paul in Romans 11 showed they are only being blinded by God during this world so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles.

The gospel went out to the Gentiles in Paul's day and some of the Jews who had previously been broken off in Paul's day were provoked to jealousy and they too became saved. The very Jews who you think were blinded until death in Paul's day were among those who Paul wished to help save and that he said the Gentile believers should try to provoke to jealousy so that they would want to be saved, too. Your lack of understanding the following passage is a big reason why you don't understand the rest of Romans 11.

Romans 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

What you miss is those Jews only stumbled in that day but did not fall. You falsely postpone the salvation of those who Paul and the Gentiles were trying to save in his day.

Can you see in verse 14 that Paul was referencing the very people he mentioned in verse 10 and that he wanted to help "save some of them"? Can you see how that contradicts your understanding of what he was teaching in Romans 11?

Later in the chapter Paul again spoke about those who were blinded in his day and said this regarding them:

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Paul was not speaking about the distant future here. He was saying that the ones who were blinded in his day "were broken off" and that was "because of unbelief". And then after indicating that the Gentiles in his day were grafted in by faith, he warned that they too could be cut off because of unbelief. And then he said that the Israelites who were broken off, if they believed, would be grafted back in. So, it was only a temporary blinding of some of the Jews that occurred back then while the gospel was preached to the Gentiles and then the Gentiles, in turn, preached to those Israelites so that they too could be saved.

 

[Zao is life]

Well, Paul showed in marriage one in disbelief still benefits from the other that believes. Yet we each still must believe to be saved. God's Word shows different times when that happens though. Apostle Paul is a prime example, because he didn't come to Christ and believe, Jesus came to him through divine intervention. And that happened to Paul while on his way to Damascus with authority from the Jews to deliver up Christians!

Yes Paul had heard the word but did not believe. When he saw Christ he was blinded and a Gentile was used to give him his sight back. Lot's in there.

No wait, maybe Ananias was not a Gentile. I must never listen to the Teachers. I just read it again and don't see any indication in there that Ananias was a Gentile.