Poll: When Are The Orthodox Jews Saved?

[Davy]

Evidently, there's some on this Forum that believe all those born into this world that did not believe on Jesus Christ during this present world are to perish at His 2nd coming.

God's Word does not teach any such thing, as Zechariah 14 with those who came up against Jerusalem are left over into Christ's future reign, and are made to go up and worship Him from year to year. Likewise, per Revelation 3:9, Jesus said He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" come worship at the feet of His elect in the future, for that has never... happened to this day.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Why don't you tell everyone that you believe that all of the Jews who did not believe in Christ in the past and died will be resurrected and get a chance to be saved when He returns? And then see what kind of reaction you get to that.

Your poll is missing the correct option which is that each individual Jew is saved when they put their faith in Jesus Christ. Your corporate salvation gospel is not taught in scripture.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It's an interesting question. I think there are actually multiple answers to it depending on the time, circumstances. In some ways the Pharisees and other folks who would be consider "Orthodox" rejected Jesus in spite of his miracles, preaching and teaching etc. but sometimes there are some interesting testimonies of people from this background. Once in a while, I watch the Sid Roth show, a Charismatic tv show that has lots of material that can be very questionable.... but probably the best program ever came from a Jewish woman who converted to Christianity from that background. There was lots of stuff from the Jewish heritage that pointed to Jesus / Yeshua as the messiah for anyone willing to look and not just the Bible passages but all kinds of other contextual stuff from the Jewish tradition that went with it. I will look for that testimony and post a link below or in another post when I find it.

 

[Davy]

It's an interesting question. I think there are actually multiple answers to it depending on the time, circumstances. In some ways the Pharisees and other folks who would be consider "Orthodox" rejected Jesus in spite of his miracles, preaching and teaching etc. but sometimes there are some interesting testimonies of people from this background. Once in a while, I watch the Sid Roth show, a Charismatic tv show that has lots of material that can be very questionable.... but probably the best program ever came from a Jewish woman who converted to Christianity from that background. There was lots of stuff from the Jewish heritage that pointed to Jesus / Yeshua as the messiah for anyone willing to look and not just the Bible passages but all kinds of other contextual stuff from the Jewish tradition that went with it. I will look for that testimony and post a link below or in another post when I find it.

Yes, there's a lot the leaders of the orthodox Jews hide from Old Testament Scripture that is about our Lord Jesus Christ to prove that Jesus of Nazareth is Messiah. I've heard testimony by Jews that somehow got a hold of Christian Bible study showing the Old Testament witnesses for Christ's 1st coming. They were irate because of that being hidden from them by their rabbi.

 

[Douggg]

Endtimes Eventism, and its 9 principles.

1. the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 is still unfulfilled.

2. there is only one way to be saved, and that is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, his death on the cross, and rising from the dead on the third day.

3. that Ezekiel 39 establishes the infallible timeline framework for the end times, the beginning and ending of the 70th week. Jesus Himself speaking in the text of v21-29, having returned to this earth.

4. that end times events in the bible have to fit within, just prior to, and after, and comply with that framework.

5. that Christians escape the beginning of the Day of the Lord when the wrath associated with it takes place, by the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

6. that the person commonly called the Antichrist is only the Antichrist during his time as the King of Israel/messiah coming in his own name. And not as a blanket term for the person.

7. that Satan and his third of the angels will be cast down, restricted to earth in middle part of the seven years. Until Jesus returns, and Satan is cast into the bottomless pit.

8. that the Jews, Israel, becomes believers in Jesus en-masse in the middle part of the seven years.

9. that there is a 1000 year millennium following Jesus's return to this earth.

 

[Basil the Great]

With all due respect, there should be another voting category, as some of us believe that at least some of the Jews in the world are already saved. The Vatican issued a statement a few years ago saying that "It is a mystery how the Jews are saved". Said statement implies that many Jews are indeed saved, without explaining why or how this happens. While I am not a Catholic, I do believe that many Jews are saved. I would also add that Conservative and Reform Jews should not be excluded from the possibility of salvation.

 

[Davy]

8. that the Jews, Israel, becomes believers in Jesus en-masse in the middle part of the seven years.

I know that's 'kind of' what Pre-tribulationalism teaches with their 'tribulation saints' idea, however, that's not what God's Word shows.

The mid part of the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 that you refer to, is when the coming Antichrist will place the idol abomination in Jerusalem, and require all to bow in worship to it, or be killed. That is the time of "great tribulation" Lord Jesus forewarned of. That coming pseudo-Christ is to work great signs and miracles in Jerusalem that would almost deceive even Christ's very elect. The orthodox Jews will believe it.

The orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem will believe on that false one that is coming to play Messiah. They will believe he is Messiah they've been waiting on.

It's not going to be a time on earth when one will easily know that coming pseudo-Christ is a fake. Only those who keep to God's Word and know what He warned about that coming fake one will understand. Revelation 17:8 shows that will be only those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

And when Jesus does appear, they will be in shock, with the rest of the world. Then they will know they have worshipped the wrong messiah, a fake.

 

[Zao is life]

Evidently, there's some on this Forum that believe all those born into this world that did not believe on Jesus Christ during this present world are to perish at His 2nd coming.

God's Word does not teach any such thing, as Zechariah 14 with those who came up against Jerusalem are left over into Christ's future reign, and are made to go up and worship Him from year to year. Likewise, per Revelation 3:9, Jesus said He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" come worship at the feet of His elect in the future, for that has never... happened to this day.

I could not click any of them because you left out a choice as though it does not exist:

When they repent and turn to faith in Christ:

"And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again." Romans 11:23

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil." John 3:17-18

The only way any human can be saved from God's wrath is the way those who post at CF and billions of others are saved from God's wrath - by believing in the blood of Jesus.

1. We have to know we are sinners before God.
2. We have to be repentant and place our faith and trust in the blood of Jesus shed for many of the remission of sins.

Jesus said His blood of the New Covenant was shed for many - He did not say all - because in John 3:18 He gave a condition.

It's the Lord Jesus Christ talking and whoever says what He said is not true should reconsider.

God is saving Jews all the time - every time a Jew comes to faith in Christ. It happens often. In the late 20th century and this century it's happening more and more.

 

[Douggg]

The orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem will believe on that false one that is coming to play Messiah. They will believe he is Messiah they've been waiting on.

The Jews will believe that the person is the messiah for the first three years or so of the 7 years.


That changes - when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood - revealing himself as the man of sin, and not the messiah after all - the Jews will be horrified - and will turn at that time to Jesus, because the two witnesses will be testifying the entire time that the person is not the messiah and not to trust in him.

The abomination of desolation will be made and place on the temple grounds shortly thereafter, the Jews flee, the two witnesses killed, the seventh trumpet sounds, the war in heaven, Satan cast down,
and in Revelation 12:10, it indicates that the Jews have turned to Jesus.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

[Davy]

I could not click any of them because you left out a choice as though it does not exist:

When they repent and turn to faith in Christ:

"And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again." Romans 11:23

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil." John 3:17-18

The only way any human can be saved from God's wrath is the way those who post at CF and billions of others are saved from God's wrath - by believing in the blood of Jesus.

1. We have to know we are sinners before God.
2. We have to be repentant and place our faith and trust in the blood of Jesus shed for many of the remission of sins.

Jesus said His blood of the New Covenant was shed for many - He did not say all - because in John 3:18 He gave a condition.

It's the Lord Jesus Christ talking and whoever says what He said is not true should reconsider.

God is saving Jews all the time - every time a Jew comes to faith in Christ. It happens often. In the late 20th century and this century it's happening more and more.

Their admitting their Faith on Jesus Christ is kind of understood in my poll. We as Christians well know that ALL MUST believe on Jesus Christ to be saved. The question is 'when' for those orthodox Jews, because Paul in Romans 11 showed they are only being blinded by God during this world so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. And one day that blindness is to be removed, which is when Paul quoted from Isaiah where God said He will remove their sins, i.e., pointing to their TIME when they will hear The Gospel with eyes to see, and ears to hear, and thus believe on Jesus Christ. That is set for Christ's future 1,000 years reign.

 

[Douggg]

And when Jesus does appear, they will be in shock, with the rest of the world. Then they will know they have worshipped the wrong messiah, a fake.

The Jews never worshiped the Antichrist - the moment he claims to be God, they will reject him because he as a man will claim to have achieved God-hood.

The Jewish concept of the messiah is that he is no way divine. From Judaism 101...


The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

With all due respect, there should be another voting category, as some of us believe that at least some of the Jews in the world are already saved. The Vatican issued a statement a few years ago saying that "It is a mystery how the Jews are saved". Said statement implies that many Jews are indeed saved, without explaining why or how this happens. While I am not a Catholic, I do believe that many Jews are saved. I would also add that Conservative and Reform Jews should not be excluded from the possibility of salvation.

Why wouldn't they be? There were 3,000 Jews saved on the day of Pentecost long ago. Paul referenced a remanant that were saved in his day (Romans 11:5). And Jews have been getting saved ever since. Ever hear of the group "Jews for Jesus"? That is an organization existing today and they are all Jews and all saved.

 

[Douggg]

Why don't you tell everyone that you believe that all of the Jews who did not believe in Christ in the past and died will be resurrected and get a chance to be saved when He returns? And then see what kind of reaction you get to that.

Your poll is missing the correct option which is that each individual Jew is saved when they put their faith in Jesus Christ. Your corporate salvation gospel is not taught in scripture.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[Davy]

The Jews will believe that the person is the messiah for the first three years or so of the 7 years.


That changes - when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood - revealing himself as the man of sin, and not the messiah after all - the Jews will be horrified - and will turn at that time to Jesus, because the two witnesses will be testifying the entire time that the person is not the messiah and not to trust in him.

The abomination of desolation will be made and place on the temple grounds shortly thereafter, the Jews flee, the two witnesses killed, the seventh trumpet sounds, the war in heaven, Satan cast down,
and in Revelation 12:10, it indicates that the Jews have turned to Jesus.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So the unbelieving Jews will wish for the hills and mountains to fall upon themselves because... they reject the coming false Messiah, and instead suddenly believe on Jesus when the Antichrist sets up the idol? That's just a theory from Pre-tribulationalism, ya know.

When the tribulation starts, one will be either 'sealed' by The Holy Spirit through Christ in prep for it, or they will not be sealed. That is what will determine who is subject to the 'stinging' of Revelation 9:4-6. So when it starts, it will be too late for anyone during the tribulation to change their belief. For the stinging is about deception to the false Messiah instead of waiting for Jesus' return.

 

[Davy]

The Jews never worshiped the Antichrist - the moment he claims to be God, they will reject him because he as a man will claim to have achieved God-hood.

The Jewish concept of the messiah is that he is no way divine. From Judaism 101...


The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

Of course the orthodox Jews will believe he is but a flesh born man. But he won't be; it will be Satan himself, on earth, disguised as Christ. Or didn't you read Paul's warning in 2 Corinthians 11 about the "another Jesus", and how Satan disguises (KJV "transformed", but actually disguise in the Greek), himself as an angel of light, and his ministers as the ministers of righteousness?

 

[Davy]

How many people here do you think would agree with your false doctrine that many Jews who died in the past will get a chance to be saved when they are resurrected at Christ's return? Why don't you create a poll about that and see what happens.

You are such an angry person. You give an interpretation and your opinion and act like you have proven something and then you give this tough guy act to try to show your supposed authority.

If you can explain to me why in the world animal sacrifices would be reinstituted when Christ returns even though they were made obsolete long ago, then maybe I'll take you seriously. Can you do that?

Don't need a poll. All one need do is study the Ezekiel 40 through 48 chapters of God's Word, which is still prophecy for the future Millennium reign by Christ and His elect.

 

[Douggg]

So the unbelieving Jews will wish for the hills and mountains to fall upon themselves because... they reject the coming false Messiah, and instead suddenly believe on Jesus when the Antichrist sets up the idol? That's just a theory from Pre-tribulationalism, ya know.

I am anytime rapture view. My eschatology view is Endtimes Eventism and it 9 principles.

The beast, Satan, and the false prophet will persecute the Jews for the second half of the seven years.

Many will be martyred as believers in Jesus, refusing to worship the statue image of the beast.

The verse you are referring to in your first sentence is directed not at the Jews, but at that who will be persecuting the Jews and other believers in Jesus. It is in Revelation 6, the sixth seal.

Jesus returns and executes judgment on the wicked, as the grateful Jews, overcome with emotion welcome hims saying - blessed is He who comes in name of the Lord.

 

[Zao is life]

Their admitting their Faith on Jesus Christ is kind of understood in my poll. We as Christians well know that ALL MUST believe on Jesus Christ to be saved. The question is 'when' for those orthodox Jews, because Paul in Romans 11 showed they are only being blinded by God during this world so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. And one day that blindness is to be removed, which is when Paul quoted from Isaiah where God said He will remove their sins, i.e., pointing to their TIME when they will hear The Gospel with eyes to see, and ears to hear, and thus believe on Jesus Christ. That is set for Christ's future 1,000 years reign.

I don't have an answer about the timing but I have speculated by looking at the Biblical type and comparing it with Zechariah 12-14:

* Joseph was hated by his brothers because he was beloved of his father and he had told them of the position of authority he dreamed he was to receive over them.

* At the instigation of Judah (Judas/Jews) Joseph was sold into slavery for 20 pieces of silver. Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

* Joseph's robe was dipped in blood to prove to his father that he was dead (except in this case it was not his own blood and it was a lie).

* Joseph was taken out of the dungeon by Pharaoh and highly exalted, receiving the highest position of authority with only Pharaoh himself excepted, and everyone in Egypt was to "bow the knee".

* Joseph took a Gentile bride.

When did Joseph reveal himself to his brothers who had come to him to buy grain?

When Judah showed remorse for what he had done:

Genesis 44:18-34. Judah is beseeching Joseph (literally begging him for mercy). Then...

"Then Joseph could not control himself before all those who stood by him. And he cried, Cause every man to go out from me! And no man stood before him while Joseph made himself known to his brothers.
2 And he wept aloud. And the Egyptians and the house of Pharaoh heard.
3 And Joseph said to his brothers, I am Joseph. Is my father still live? And his brothers could not answer him, for they were dismayed at his presence." Genesis 45

"And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be bitter over Him, as the bitterness over the first-born." Zechariah 12:10

Zechariah chapters 12-14 is one prophecy, and it's talking about the armies of all nations gathering against Jerusalem. So if this is the time, then it looks to me like when Jesus appears in the clouds - that's when those Jews who had still remained His enemy will repent. BUT if you're a Premillenialist then you will understand why I say that if that's the case, it will be too late for them to be part of the resurrection of those who died in Christ at the time of His appearance - but they will be saved when they repent, and will be ruled over by:

"And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

BUT I'M SPECULATING. Because I don't have an answer let alone "the answer" to the question of "when".

 

[Davy]

I am anytime rapture view. My eschatology view is Endtimes Eventism and it 9 principles.

The beast, Satan, and the false prophet will persecute the Jews for the second half of the seven years.

Many will be martyred as believers in Jesus, refusing to worship the statue image of the beast.

The verse you are referring to in your first sentence is directed not at the Jews, but at that who will be persecuting the Jews and other believers in Jesus. It is in Revelation 6, the sixth seal.

Jesus returns and executes judgment on the wicked, as the grateful Jews, overcome with emotion welcome hims saying - blessed is He who comes in name of the Lord.

That part I put in bold and underlined is a theory from Pre-trib. (and I know you are Pre-trib).

Those who are martyred are Christians that are 'sealed' by The Holy Spirit PRIOR... to the start of the great tribulation. Or didn't you understand Rev.7 and Rev.9 about that sealing?

You might want to brush up on Luke 23 also, where Jesus on His way to be crucified spoke to the women of Jerusalem that were crying for Him...

Luke 23:27-30
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.'
KJV

 

[Douggg]

If you can explain to me why in the world animal sacrifices would be reinstituted when Christ returns even though they were made obsolete long ago, then maybe I'll take you seriously. Can you do that?

Do you realize that the feast of tabernacle is a remembrance holiday time when the Jews build makeshift structures to live in to commemorate God taking them out of Egyptian bondage? The Jews keep that holiday, even without a temple being present.

As far as the animal sacrifices, those will be re-instituted as part of temple ordinances when a new temple is built. It is not known whether that temple will be constructed before the 7 years begin, or just after it begins with a downsized tabernacle, which the original tent tabernacle was only 30 ft x 15 ft, just to get the animal sacrifices started as soon as possible.