70 weeks

[sovereigngrace]

I still see it making zero sense that Christ confirmed the covenant for one week, when the following couldn't possibly confirm a covenant by Christ----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. That is meaning during this same 70th week. There is no way it can't be. And the fact some of you refuse to admit it, you would have the rest of us believe that you are interpreting verse 27 correctly and that some of the rest of us are not.

What is it that some of you think is being made desolate? How can it not involve this part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease? What else is there in that verse that this could pertain to if not that?

Daniel 9:27 says, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”

“for”

Before advancing into this matter further let us first note: the word “for” is not in the original text. It was an English translation addition. The verse simply tells us that Messiah the prince would confirm the covenant with many one seven.

The original Hebrew for Daniel 9:27 reads:

gabar Shall Confirm
bariyth Covenant
rab with many
echad one
shabuwa week

The confirmation was simply to occur within the 7 year period, rather than ‘for’ 7 years duration. This whole passage is clearly focused upon Calvary and the irreversible affect it had on Israel’s religious sacrifices and the oblations. We learn that in God’s economy it caused them to cease. In the economy of the religious Jews at the time of Calvary they stubbornly and sinfully continued to practice their sacrifices. The whole focus of Jewish religious worship was centered on the temple. It was here that the Jews came to make their typical atoning sacrifices.

Secondly, it doesn't say that a covenant is made, as our Dispensational brethren propose. Unfortunately they enter into all types of wild speculations on this passage through the writings of the Dispensational school of thought. Rather it tells us that a covenant would be confirmed. The covenant in view that was to be confirmed was none other than the new covenant. It was a covenant that originated in eternity; it was anticipated and predicted in time, and was finally and perfectly realised when God ordained it.

“confirm”

The word translated “confirm” here is the Hebrew word gabar meaning to be strong, strengthen, prevail.

Paul speaking of Christ’s eternal covenant at Calvary, says, “the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ” (Galatians 3:17).

 

[nolidad]

All the action happens after 7 and 62 weeks...,


Dan 9
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

What does Messiah do once he comes after 69 weeks?

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.


Did Jesus complete this work that the Father gave him to do?


Jn 17
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You, 2 just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth by accomplishing the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.



Yes he did complete the work. If he didnt then receiving his Holy Spirit would not be possible.


Jn 16
The Holy Spirit Promised
5 “But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, grief has filled your heart. 7 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9 regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see Me; 11 and regarding judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.


God bless.

The cross was the Work Jesus was sent to do. That has nothing to do with the 70 weeks of Daniel . Neither does the giving of the Holy Spirit. that is allegorizing one scripture to force it to fit into another.

Also teh He of verse 27 cannot refer to Jesus. Jesus never made a 7 year covenant with Israel. Jesus never caused the sacrifice and oblation to end. and Jesus did not make them cease to cause the overspeading of Abominations (god does not promote evil.) A belief that all 70 weeks have been accomplished is only doine by reinterpreting Scriptures as written so that they will sayisomething not written.

 

[keras]

But the anointed one who would atone for sin didnt arrive on the scene until after the 7 and 62 weeks were finished.

Your opinion only.
Many scholars show the 483 years ending at the Crucifixion.

He was cut off after he had finished his work.

Yes, just as Daniels prophecy says. The end of the 69th 'week'.

The theory of the cut off being at the mid point has no fixed ending to the final 3 1/2 years. Guesswork and speculation about this shows desperation and the desire to make scripture fit a false belief.

 

[friend of]

So many posts and yet nobody knows what they're talking about! Lol

 

[Yesha]

But 'after' in this case means; immediately or directly after, not 3 1/2 years after. If you were correct, the scripture would read; later, or after a time...... [time, times and half a time]
The belief of the 70th 'week' having passed is wrong; it remains to be fulfilled in the future, all as described in Daniel and Revelation.

To add to what @jeffweedaman said in post #40, how have you reasoned to the conclusion that "after" must mean "immediately or directly after"? Regardless, the whole point is that the Messiah was cut off after the 69th week had ended. This means that the Messiah was cut of in the 70th week which is incompatible with the view that the 70th week "remains to be fulfilled in the future".

But we are not yet in the New Covenant.
Read Hebrews 8:8-12. Are His Laws written in our hearts yet? Do we not have to teach one another, because we all know the Lord; as yet?
Only when we Christians go to live in all of the holy Land, will this happen. Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

Yes and yes! Shortly after describing the superiority of the new covenant in Hebrews 8:8-12, the author writes in chapter 9:

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. - Hebrews 9:15 (ESV)​

Christ "is" (present tense) now the mediator of the new covenant. We are not waiting for his mediation. The author also says that Christ's death "has occurred" (past tense) that brings redemption to those who committed sins under the first covenant. How can the new covenant of which Christ is mediator redeem anyone in the present if it is yet to come?

 

[Douggg]

You are mistaken in the above statement, read the following and understand

The text states that “unto 2300 days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”. Why does this period begin upon the 3rd declaration of rebuilding Jerusalem?

The vision is 2300 days, not years of the SDA view, in time of the end, when the little horn person lives.

There needs to be a temple in place, and animal sacrifices going on, for there to be a "transgression of desolation" to take place, and the temple to be cleansed of those things that make it desolate.

 

[Douggg]

The 2300 evenings and mornings do not fit anywhere in the end times.

The vision of the little horn in Daniel 8 is time of the end in the text, stated by Gabriel.

The vision of 2300 days in Daniel 8 of the daily sacrifice being stopped by the little horn, and the transgression of desolation, and the temple cleansed of those things that will make it desolate. Time of the end. Stated by Gabriel, which Daniel saw in the vision, the beginning when Daniel was first introduced to Gabriel.


21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.


So the 2300 days have to fit in the 70 weeks. 7 years is 2520 days.

 

[jeffweedaman]

So many posts and yet nobody knows what they're talking about! Lol

Care to enlighten us friend.

 

[friend of]

Care to enlighten us friend.

Not really. I have no idea what's going on in this thread anyway

 

[jeffweedaman]

The cross was the Work Jesus was sent to do. That has nothing to do with the 70 weeks of Daniel .

It has everything to do with it. How else can there be atonement sin iniquity and transgressions but through his cross?

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.


Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

 

[Zao is life]

So I agree 100% with this thread's OP and I think Post #3 puts it brilliantly.

But our first preacher said something in 1 Corinthians 13 about how we all need to get back to basics because otherwise it matters zero, zilch, nada, nothing how much understanding of prophecy we have.

1 If I make use of the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am like sounding brass, or a loud-tongued bell.
2 And if I have a prophet's power, and have knowledge of all secret things; and if I have all faith, by which mountains may be moved from their place, but have not love, I am nothing.

8 Though the prophet's word may come to an end, tongues come to nothing, and knowledge have no more value, love has no end.
9 For our knowledge is only in part, and the prophet's word gives only a part of what is true:
10 But when that which is complete is come, then that which is in part will be no longer necessary.

12 For now we see things in a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now my knowledge is in part; then it will be complete, even as God's knowledge of me.
13 But now we still have faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Love is patient, love is kind, not vain, not puffed up

etc etc etc

Jesus is love, God is love. He is patient and kind with those who believe differently to me and for all I know the heart of the person whose opinions of any portion of prophecy I might regard as ridiculous might be closer to God's own heart than mine.

Let's not gang up against anyone. Suffice to say I disagree with you if we disagree.

Post #3 makes it clear enough and those who don't get it won't get it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

But 'after' in this case means; immediately or directly after, not 3 1/2 years after. If you were correct, the scripture would read; later, or after a time...... [time, times and half a time]

You are just making things up now. If you were honest, you would acknowledge that it does not say how long after the end of the first 69 weeks that He would be cut off. Your are being intellectually dishonest here.

The belief of the 70th 'week' having passed is wrong; it remains to be fulfilled in the future, all as described in Daniel and Revelation

If that is true then you should be able to easily tell me exactly how and when the six things Daniel listed in Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled, so can you please do that? Otherwise, I can't take you seriously.

Nothing destroys your false beliefs more than showing how you misread scripture. My refutation is above.

You refuted nothing. Not even close. You're making claims without backing them up with scripture. That doesn't fly around here.

No Jesus is NOT reigning now. We have humans in control of our nations. Jesus will take up His rightful Throne when He Returns as King of Kings. Revelation 19:11

Please tell me how you interpret the following passages:

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 2:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

But we are not yet in the New Covenant.
Read Hebrews 8:8-12. Are His Laws written in our hearts yet? Do we not have to teach one another, because we all know the Lord; as yet?
Only when we Christians go to live in all of the holy Land, will this happen. Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

Do you not understand that Christ's blood is what established the new covenant? How in the world can you say we're not yet in the new covenant?! That is offensive to the work of Christ on the cross!

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Scripture could not be more clear that we have been under the new covenant for almost 2,000 years now. How else can we be saved except under the new covenant of the shed blood of Christ? You are sadly mistaken.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The cross was the Work Jesus was sent to do. That has nothing to do with the 70 weeks of Daniel .

The things that some people say on this forum are truly mind boggling.

Please tell me your interpretation of Daniel 9:24. How else can those six things listed in that verse be accomplished apart from the death and resurrection of Christ? Please include as much detail as possible in giving your interpretation of Daniel 9:24. When do you think it will be fulfilled and how?

 

[DavidPT]

This means that the Messiah was cut of in the 70th week which is incompatible with the view that the 70th week "remains to be fulfilled in the future".

Not necessarily, assuming that part is referring to Christ. It could just mean that the gap is not between the 69th and 70th week, but is in the middle of the 70th week. No matter how you look at it, this part----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate---couldn't possibly mean something that is fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ's death, thus a gap if Christ is meant in verse 27. And the fact the great trib is 42 months according to Revelation 13:5 and other NT Scriptures, and that the great trib would be future from the time of the cross, Christ would continue confirming the covenant with many the remainder of the week by them continuing to worship Him rather than the beast. That would be the logic as I see it if Christ is meant in verse 27 as the one confirming the covenant with many for one week, and that the gap is in the middle of the 70th week. And since there has to be a gap somewhere in the 70 weeks, regardless, I guess it's at least possible it might be in the middle of the 70th week instead.

Food for thought, per the following. The first 69 weeks, or maybe even 69 and 1/2 weeks, lead to the death of the real Christ. After the middle of the 70th week it leads to the death of the antichrist. The first 69 weeks, or maybe even 69 and 1/2 weeks, plus any gap after that, involve the first coming. The 70th week leads to the 2nd coming, maybe the entire week or maybe just the last half of it. And it's not like there are not two comings of Christ involved. Obviously, at least to me anyway, two comings were initially hidden in the text in Daniel 9, but have since been revealed in the text in light of the NT.

Even though I believe the 70th week is future, or maybe just the latter half, since both are possibilities, I don't take it to involve what others who see it being future take it to involve. These things will be involving the spiritual not the literal, therefore no literal temple involved where animal sacrificing resumes then is put to end again. I see that as total nonsense. What I don't see as total nonsense is the AC trying to entirely do away with what Christ accomplished on the cross, by directing worship towards him rather than God, which he appears to do in the final 42 months of this age. And the fact 42 months is 1/2 of 7 years, either that's a coincidence that so does something sinister also happen during the latter half of the 70th week, that according to Daniel 9:27, or that maybe someone is trying to tell us something here instead.

 

[lsume]

All the action happens after 7 and 62 weeks...,


Dan 9
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

What does Messiah do once he comes after 69 weeks?

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.


Did Jesus complete this work that the Father gave him to do?


Jn 17
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You, 2 just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth by accomplishing the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.



Yes he did complete the work. If he didnt then receiving his Holy Spirit would not be possible.


Jn 16
The Holy Spirit Promised
5 “But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, grief has filled your heart. 7 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9 regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see Me; 11 and regarding judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.


God bless.

I think that when Israel became a nation it was a significant event in Biblical prophecy. There is a place that mentions 69 weeks as I recall. However, as I’ve grown and come to more understanding, a great deal if not most of the New Testament deals with Spiritual events. The Spiritual events may be accompanied by physical manifestations but the Spiritual is what is most important.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Not really. I have no idea what's going on in this thread anyway

So, why criticise others?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I think that when Israel became a nation it was a significant event in Biblical prophecy. There is a place that mentions 69 weeks as I recall. However, as I’ve grown and come to more understanding, a great deal if not most of the New Testament deals with Spiritual events. The Spiritual events may be accompanied by physical manifestations but the Spiritual is what is most important.

Race does not matter any more. Wrong covenant. That old one is gone forever.

 

[jgr]

But 'after' in this case means; immediately or directly after

310 [e]
wə·’a·ḥă·rê
וְאַחֲרֵ֤י
And after

The Hebrew definition for "after" in Daniel 9:26 shows no mention of "immediately" or "directly after" or "soon" or "shortly" or any synonyms thereof.

You're suffering from "interpretation by imagination".

 

[Zao is life]

The vision is 2300 days, not years of the SDA view, in time of the end, when the little horn person lives.

There needs to be a temple in place, and animal sacrifices going on, for there to be a "transgression of desolation" to take place, and the temple to be cleansed of those things that make it desolate.

I take it that you're getting your idea that there must be a physical temple in place again for the AOD to be fulfilled, and I take it that you're interpreting 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 in the light of this.

However there are some important facts that those who say this are ignorant of:

The Greek New Testament uses two words for "temple", one of which (Greek: naos) refers to the holy place & most holy place of the temple in Jerusalem; and the other one (Greek: hieron) referring to the outer courts and buildings, and the entire temple precincts:

The word naos, referring to the holy place is used in the following verses, which all refer either to the holy place or most holy place of the temple in Jerusalem, or to the body of Christ, the church, and the temple of God in heaven:

Unlike the word naos, the word referring to the temple structure and precincts continues to be used in the Greek New Testament throughout, in all references to the temple in Jerusalem:

If we dig deeper into which "temple" is meant in Revelation 11:1-2, the following facts come to light:

A. The holy city
Rev.21:2 & 10 and Rev.22:19 call new Jerusalem (the city in heaven), the holy city.

B. Sodom and Egypt
Rev.11:8 calls Jerusalem on earth "Sodom and Egypt",

Is it likely that Revelation chapter 11 will call Jerusalem which exists on earth both the holy city AND Sodom and Egypt?

C. Rev.11:2 links the outer court of the same temple spoken of in verse 1, to the holy city:

"And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months." (Rev.11:1-2).

D. The Greek word naos is used for "temple" in verses 1 & 2.

E. Daniel prophesied that the final world ruler will overcome the saints:

"And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time." (Dan.7:25) .

F. Revelation chapter 13 (Rev.13:7) tells us that the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war against the saints and overcome them, and will be given authority to rule for forty-two months ("a time, times and a half a time"); and Revelation 11 tells us that when "the two witnesses" complete their testimony, the same beast will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

QUESTION:
Since the Revelation calls New Jerusalem the holy city, and Jerusalem on earth "Sodom and Egypt", and since Rev.11:2 links the outer court of the same temple spoken of in verse 1, to the holy city, and since Revelation 11:1-2 use the word "naos" for temple, does it seem likely that it's talking about a physical temple in Jerusalem on earth?

The man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is also called "the son of perdition". The only other person in the New Testament who received that title was Judas Iscariot, the traitor and betrayer who all the other apostles and disciples considered a trusted follower of Jesus and one of His inner circle. Only Jesus knew Judas was going to betray Him. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 uses the word naos when speaking of the temple this man of sin will seat himself up in.

Therefore since following the verses speaking about the tearing of the veil, the word naos is only used in reference to saints as the temple of God, the congregation of saints as the temple of God and in reference to the temple in heaven, why would the AOD of which you speak not have taken place in the first century, and why would a physical temple in Jerusalem have anything to do with the Church?

 

[DavidPT]

Daniel 9:27 says, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”

“for”

Before advancing into this matter further let us first note: the word “for” is not in the original text. It was an English translation addition. The verse simply tells us that Messiah the prince would confirm the covenant with many one seven.

The original Hebrew for Daniel 9:27 reads:

gabar Shall Confirm
bariyth Covenant
rab with many
echad one
shabuwa week

The confirmation was simply to occur within the 7 year period, rather than ‘for’ 7 years duration. This whole passage is clearly focused upon Calvary and the irreversible affect it had on Israel’s religious sacrifices and the oblations. We learn that in God’s economy it caused them to cease. In the economy of the religious Jews at the time of Calvary they stubbornly and sinfully continued to practice their sacrifices. The whole focus of Jewish religious worship was centered on the temple. It was here that the Jews came to make their typical atoning sacrifices.

Secondly, it doesn't say that a covenant is made, as our Dispensational brethren propose. Unfortunately they enter into all types of wild speculations on this passage through the writings of the Dispensational school of thought. Rather it tells us that a covenant would be confirmed. The covenant in view that was to be confirmed was none other than the new covenant. It was a covenant that originated in eternity; it was anticipated and predicted in time, and was finally and perfectly realised when God ordained it.

“confirm”

The word translated “confirm” here is the Hebrew word gabar meaning to be strong, strengthen, prevail.

Paul speaking of Christ’s eternal covenant at Calvary, says, “the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ” (Galatians 3:17).

I at least don't agree with the Dispensationalist take on this, yet I still agree with them that there is a gap in the 70 weeks somewhere. There is no way there can't be since all of verse 27 is pertaining to what transpires during the 70th week. And as long as some refuse to admit that, I see zero way they could be correctly interpreting the entire 70 weeks. I'm sure they are correct about some of it, but unless one is also correct about the rest of it, I don't see being correct about just some of it quite cutting it.