70 weeks

[Douggg]

Do you think you're fooling me with this response? Can you acknowledge that you don't know how or when Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled, as evidenced by the fact that you can't answer that question? Referring to verses 21-23 does not answer the question and you know that.

No one knows the date when the 2300 day end times vision will begin.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No one knows the date when the 2300 day end times vision will begin.

I'm not asking for an exact date and I think you know that. I'll try to rephrase the question that you are pretending to not understand. When do you think the 70th week will begin and end in relation to the second coming of Christ?

You believe that the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 have to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks, right? So, if you don't think they've been fulfilled yet then that means they have to be fulfilled within the 70th week. So, when do you think that will happen in relation to the second coming of Christ?

 

[Douggg]

When do you think the 70th week will begin and end in relation to the second coming of Christ?

7 years before Jesus returns - 70th week begins. 70th week ends when Jesus returns.

v24 "to seal up the vision...."

The vision is identified in v21-23, the one Daniel had seen Gabriel in the vision in Daniel 8, regarding the 2300 days of the vision of the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice sacrifice, and committing the transgression of desolation, and the temple cleansed of those things that will have made it desolate. Time of the end.

The 2300 days have to fit within the 2520 day 70th week. And be in the time of the end.

 

[jgr]

But what positively negates the no future 70th week argument being made is Daniel 9:21-23. Which refers back to the vision in Daniel 8.

Debunked.

Positively.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

7 years before Jesus returns - 70th week begins. 70th week ends when Jesus returns.

v24 "to seal up the vision...."

The vision is identified in v21-23, the one Daniel had seen Gabriel in the vision in Daniel 8, regarding the 2300 days of the vision of the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice sacrifice, and committing the transgression of desolation, and the temple cleansed of those things that will have made it desolate. Time of the end.

The 2300 days have to fit within the 2520 day 70th week. And be in the time of the end.

So, you mentioned one of the six things here and the timing in relation to Christ's return.

I'm sure you agree that the other five things listed in Daniel 9:24 have to be fulfilled by the end of the 70th week as well. What is your understanding of the fulfillment of finishing the transgression, making an end of sins, making reconciliation for iniquity, bringing in everlasting righteousness and anointing the most holy?

 

[Douggg]

So, you mentioned one of the six things here and the timing in relation to Christ's return.

I'm sure you agree that the other five things listed in Daniel 9:24 have to be fulfilled by the end of the 70th week as well. What is your understanding of the fulfillment of finishing the transgression, making an end of sins, making reconciliation for iniquity, bringing in everlasting righteousness and anointing the most holy?

I am focusing on the 70th week still being unfulfilled, and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years to begin it.

 

[keras]

In what week do you think he atoned for our sins?

At the end of the 69th, just as Daniel 9:26 says.

To attribute to antichrist the complete, perfect, and fulfilled accomplishments of Messiah at Calvary is the ultimate blasphemy.

Where do you get that idea from? I attribute nothing other than godlessness to the AC.

You clearly don't even understand what He was saying when He said "It is finished".

He was saying that He was about to die.
Thinking His death accomplished all the 6 points of Daniel 24, is wrong.

Are you really this ignorant about what he and I believe? We are amillennialists. We preach against avoiding hard times constantly. Amil doctrine is the furthest from pre-trib as you can get. We refute the pre-trib dispensationalist false doctrine often on here. How can you not know this? Why is it that you are so ignorant?

I am not a pre-tribber. I refute the 'rapture' and I promote God's plans for His faithful people, all as described by the Prophets.
I view the AMill belief as foolishness, We are not in the Millennium now!

I can't believe you are saying this! Ive heard futurists say that some clauses of Daniel 9:24 await fulfillment, but never the third clause. Christ made full atonement for the world when he died. This is fundamental to all Christians.

Yes Jesus did make the full and final Atonement for our sins on the Cross. But we are still sinning and the world will continue that way until He Returns and chains up Satan. Only then will ALL those 6 points be fulfilled.

The arguments made in this thread so far are never ending.

But it gives you another opportunity to post again and again your fanciful 'charts'.

So the 2300 days have to fit in the 70 weeks. 7 years is 2520 days.

No Douggg, it doesn't. The 2300 evenings and mornings were fulfilled in 167 to 164 BC. Proved by history.

 

[Douggg]

No Douggg, it doesn't. The 2300 evenings and mornings were fulfilled in 167 to 164 BC. Proved by history.

Time of the end. And Gabriel referred to that vision in Daniel 9:21-23.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Yes Jesus did make the full and final Atonement for our sins on the Cross. But we are still sinning and the world will continue that way until He Returns and chains up Satan. Only then will ALL those 6 points be fulfilled.

So Keras, "to make atonement for iniquity" - the 3rd clause of Daniel 9:24 - was fulfilled at his 1st coming, but the other 5 clauses are awaiting fulfillment at his 2nd coming? Is that what you are saying?

 

[DavidPT]

No one knows the date when the 2300 day end times vision will begin.

These Commentators in the past and some of these authors of some of these books some in here are relying on for their theology, have done a number on them. Some of these can't seem to think for themselves when it comes to some of these visions recorded in Daniel, such as ch 8. Some of these flat out ignore the timing clues, such as the following, then because of what past Commentators have concluded, they agree with them rather than the texts themselves. Some of Daniel 8 is obviously past history. But not all of it is, though.


Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Obviously, meaning Daniel 8:9-14.

Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Obviously, meaning Daniel 8:9-14 and Daniel 8:23-25.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


How is it possible that the Prince of princes is not meaning Christ? The translators obviously thought it is, the fact they capitalized Prince in the middle of a sentence. The same thing they did with Prince in Daniel 9:25. Would any believer argue that the Prince in Daniel 9:25 is not meaning Christ? Would any believer argue that the translators didn't think the Prince in Daniel 9:25 was meaning Christ? How then can nothing in Daniel 8 involve endtimes if the little horn meant in Daniel 8 shall stand up against Christ, but he shall be broken without hand?

Daniel 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

In this verse Daniel is told to shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. I wonder if this vision was no longer shut up when some of these past Commentators concluded what they concluded about this chapter? If it was still shut up at the time, we are to believe they properly understood the vision, regardless?

 

[jeffweedaman]

In what week did Jesus atone for sin?

At the end of the 69th, just as Daniel 9:26 says.

How could he have atoned for sin before he arrived ?

25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks

He was cut off after 69 weeks meaning half way through the following week.

 

[DavidPT]

In what week did Jesus atone for sin?



How could he have atoned for sin before he arrived ?

25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks

He was cut off after 69 weeks meaning half way through the following week.

I still see it making zero sense that Christ confirmed the covenant for one week, when the following couldn't possibly confirm a covenant by Christ----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. That is meaning during this same 70th week. There is no way it can't be. And the fact some of you refuse to admit it, you would have the rest of us believe that you are interpreting verse 27 correctly and that some of the rest of us are not.

What is it that some of you think is being made desolate? How can it not involve this part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease? What else is there in that verse that this could pertain to if not that?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I am focusing on the 70th week still being unfulfilled, and the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years to begin it.

Thank you for confirming that you have no answer for how Daniel 9:24 was or will be fulfilled which shows that no one should trust your understanding of Daniel's 70 week prophecy.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

At the end of the 69th, just as Daniel 9:26 says.

How do you conclude that AFTER the 69 weeks means at the end of the 69th week?

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

It is AFTER the end of the 69 weeks that He would be cut off, not at the end of the 69th week. You are being intellectually dishonest here because of doctrinal bias

I am not a pre-tribber. I refute the 'rapture' and I promote God's plans for His faithful people, all as described by the Prophets.
I view the AMill belief as foolishness, We are not in the Millennium now!

Nothing is more foolish than not accepting that it says the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the first 69 weeks and then trying to say He is cut off at the end of the 69th week.

Is Jesus Christ not reigning now?

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Are we not in His kingdom now?

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Yes Jesus did make the full and final Atonement for our sins on the Cross. But we are still sinning and the world will continue that way until He Returns and chains up Satan. Only then will ALL those 6 points be fulfilled.

Please explain how each of those 6 things will be fulfilled when He returns.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I still see it making zero sense that Christ confirmed the covenant for one week, when the following couldn't possibly confirm a covenant by Christ----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. That is meaning during this same 70th week. There is no way it can't be. And the fact some of you refuse to admit it, you would have the rest of us believe that you are interpreting verse 27 correctly and that some of the rest of us are not.

What is it that some of you think is being made desolate? How can it not involve this part---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease? What else is there in that verse that this could pertain to if not that?

Why are you not using the previous verse (verse 26) to aid your understanding? It says "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary". That is what was to be made desolate. The city and the sanctuary. As Jesus prophesied about here:

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

And here (Matt 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20 are parallel accounts of this):

Luke 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

It is not necessary for this to have been fulfilled within the 70th week because this is speaking of the consummation or end result of what would occur during the 70th week. It's because of the Jews overall rejection of Christ that He rendered their temple spiritually desolate during the 70th week (Matt 23:37-38) and determined that their city and temple would be made physically desolate because of that as well.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Why are you not using the previous verse (verse 26) to aid your understanding? It says "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary". That is what was to be made desolate. The city and the sanctuary. As Jesus prophesied about here:

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

And here (Matt 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20 are parallel accounts of this):

Luke 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

It is not necessary for this to have been fulfilled within the 70th week because this is speaking of the consummation or end result of what would occur during the 70th week. It's because of the Jews overall rejection of Christ that He rendered their temple spiritually desolate during the 70th week (Matt 23:37-38) and determined that their city and temple would be made physically desolate because of that as well.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Thankyou SJ ,I was just about to post the same to David...,

Why are you not using the previous verse (verse 26) to aid your understanding? It says "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary". That is what was to be made desolate. The city and the sanctuary. As Jesus prophesied about here:

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


In Hindsight we know there was 40 years between Atonement in the 70th week and the destruction in 70 AD.

 

[Yesha]

At the end of the 69th, just as Daniel 9:26 says

For context, this is in response to what @jeffweedaman wrote:

In what week do you think he atoned for our sins?​

keras, Daniel says that the anointed one is cut off after the first 69 weeks, meaning during the 70th (not at the end of the 69th).

And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. - Daniel 9:26a (ESV)​

This corresponds with the new covenant that Christ established by his bloodshed.

And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, - Daniel 9:27a (ESV)
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. - Luke 22:20​

I know this is brief, but I believe the text is telling us that Daniel's 70th week corresponds with the dispensation of the new covenant, which was inaugurated at the first advent and is present now until Christ returns.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

No one knows the date when the 2300 day end times vision will begin.

You are mistaken in the above statement, read the following and understand

The text states that “unto 2300 days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”. Why does this period begin upon the 3rd declaration of rebuilding Jerusalem?

Only the third proclamation by Artaxerxes dealt with four traditional and political autonomy because it involved the total restoration of Jerusalem. The previous decrees by Cyrus and Darius, dealt specifically only with the temple. So the only date that can be used for the commencement of the prophecy is the Artaxerxes decree of 457 BC. This is also substantiated archaeologically and by the fulfillment of the Messianic prophesy (unto the Messiah) which is fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ as it points to 27 AD when Jesus was baptised. The prophecy only makes sense in all its components if the starting date is 457 BC.

According to Daniel 9:24 Gabriel explained that 70 weeks (490 years) were to be cut off, measured off, or appointed for God's people. This 490 year period was cut off from a longer time period. That period was the 2300 days or years mentioned in this vision. Therefore the 490 years and the 2300 years have the same beginning. The restoration decree issued by Artaxerxes in 457 B.C marks the beginning of the 2300 years

Dates in the 2300 day prophecy - Powered by Kayako Resolve Help Desk Software

 

[keras]

Time of the end. And Gabriel referred to that vision in Daniel 9:21-23.

The 2300 evenings and mornings do not fit anywhere in the end times.
Those 1150 actual days are past history. If you don't believe that truth, you have no hope of understanding end times prophecy.
In Daniel 9:21-23, Gabriel does not refer to the 2300 prophecy.
Note; that Gabriel comes to Daniel at the time of the evening offering.

So Keras, "to make atonement for iniquity" - the 3rd clause of Daniel 9:24 - was fulfilled at his 1st coming, but the other 5 clauses are awaiting fulfillment at his 2nd coming? Is that what you are saying?

Basically; yes. Only when Jesus Returns and chains up Satan, Revelation 20:1-3, will there be no more sin [iniquity] and Jesus' Atonement for sins will be fulfilled.

He was cut off after 69 weeks meaning half way through the following week.

But 'after' in this case means; immediately or directly after, not 3 1/2 years after. If you were correct, the scripture would read; later, or after a time...... [time, times and half a time]
The belief of the 70th 'week' having passed is wrong; it remains to be fulfilled in the future, all as described in Daniel and Revelation.

Nothing is more foolish than not accepting that it says the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the first 69 weeks and then trying to say He is cut off at the end of the 69th week.

Is Jesus Christ not reigning now?

Nothing destroys your false beliefs more than showing how you misread scripture. My refutation is above.

No Jesus is NOT reigning now. We have humans in control of our nations. Jesus will take up His rightful Throne when He Returns as King of Kings. Revelation 19:11

I know this is brief, but I believe the text is telling us that Daniel's 70th week corresponds with the dispensation of the new covenant, which was inaugurated at the first advent and is present now until Christ returns.

But we are not yet in the New Covenant.
Read Hebrews 8:8-12. Are His Laws written in our hearts yet? Do we not have to teach one another, because we all know the Lord; as yet?
Only when we Christians go to live in all of the holy Land, will this happen. Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

 

[jeffweedaman]

But 'after' in this case means; immediately or directly after, not 3 1/2 years after.

But the anointed one who would atone for sin didnt arrive on the scene until after the 7 and 62 weeks were finished.



25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

He was cut off after he had finished his work.