LDS Priesthoods Not Found In The Writings Of The Early Church Fathers

[dzheremi]

No he is not a false teacher, God is a just God, a God who makes provision for each of us to return to Him.

Except for Christians between c. 96 AD (the approximate date of composition of the third epistle of St. John which mentions Diotrephes, who your coreligionist Peter takes to be evidence of the 'great apostasy' in the time of the apostles themselves) and 1830 AD.

For those people, who constitute the vast majority of Christians who have ever lived, the Mormon god is a very unjust god.

 

[He is the way]

Except for Christians between c. 96 AD (the approximate date of composition of the third epistle of St. John which mentions Diotrephes, who your coreligionist Peter takes to be evidence of the 'great apostasy' in the time of the apostles themselves) and 1830 AD.

For those people, who constitute the vast majority of Christians who have ever lived, the Mormon god is a very unjust god.

I said each of us and that means everyone. The apostasy, which was prophesied in the Bible, will NOT prevent people from going to heaven, it is bad choices that will:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

It seems that a lot of people still choose evil instead of doing good.

 

[dzheremi]

I said each of us and that means everyone. The apostasy, which was prophesied in the Bible, will NOT prevent people from going to heaven, it is bad choices that will

It seems that a lot of people still choose evil instead of doing good.

Bad choices and evil like being Christian instead of Mormon? After all, according to your religion apparently, Christianity was corrupted in the time of the apostles themselves, so basically everyone in it has made a bad choice by following it -- especially for the past 190 years when the 'restored' alternative has existed.

 

[BigDaddy4]

No he is not a false teacher, God is a just God, a God who makes provision for each of us to return to Him. Only an unfair God would not allow everyone the opportunity to return to Him. He gives us that choice.

Hmm. You judging God on his "fairness". I wonder how that will work out for you. The "provision" is a choice one must make in this life. The Bible is clear one does not get a second chance after death, as is the mormon doctrine. Choose wisely.

 

[He is the way]

Bad choices and evil like being Christian instead of Mormon? After all, according to your religion apparently, Christianity was corrupted in the time of the apostles themselves, so basically everyone in it has made a bad choice by following it -- especially for the past 190 years when the 'restored' alternative has existed.

As I have explained before, there are bad people in EVERY religious denomination. The wheat and tares are sown together. Belonging to one denomination or another is NOT what saves a person. Everyone will be saved or not depending their own merits. Everyone knows right from wrong and will be judged for the choices they make or in other words the works they do. We are all laborers in God's vineyard. We either bring souls to God or push them away from Him:

(New Testament | Matthew 5:18 - 20)

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[He is the way]

Hmm. You judging God on his "fairness". I wonder how that will work out for you. The "provision" is a choice one must make in this life. The Bible is clear one does not get a second chance after death, as is the mormon doctrine. Choose wisely.

You said: "The Bible is clear one does not get a second chance after death, as is the mormon doctrine."
The Bible teaches NO such thing. There is indeed time between death and the judgment:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:18 - 19)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:5 - 6)

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

[dzheremi]

As I have explained before, there are bad people in EVERY religious denomination.

That's not the question. The question is: Given how Christianity was corrupted from the beginning according to Mormonism, is it a bad choice to be a Christian instead of a Mormon?

Belonging to one denomination or another is NOT what saves a person.

That's also not the question or claim. See above for what I actually asked.

Your replies are like a master class in not answering straightforward questions.

 

[He is the way]

That's not the question. The question is: Given how Christianity was corrupted from the beginning according to Mormonism, is it a bad choice to be a Christian instead of a Mormon?



That's also not the question or claim. See above for what I actually asked.

Your replies are like a master class in not answering straightforward questions.

Each denomination teaches things differently. That being said I believe that a person can get closer to God by living the precepts taught in the Book of Mormon than any other book. I also believe that the teachings taught in The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints are more correct than in any other denomination. The precepts align more closely to what is taught in the Bible. I have shown this to be true.

 

[dzheremi]

Each denomination teaches things differently.

Again, that's not the question. I don't even believe that Mormonism is a denomination of Christianity to begin with, so I would never approach my actual question in this manner, since it doesn't mean anything in this context that a non-Christian religion teaches things that are not in keeping with Christianity.

That being said I believe that a person can get closer to God by living the precepts taught in the Book of Mormon than any other book. I also believe that the teachings taught in The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints are more correct than in any other denomination.

So that's a yes? It is a bad choice to be a Christian instead of a Mormon?

The precepts align more closely to what is taught in the Bible. I have shown this to be true.

Hahaha. No you haven't. Just typing "I have shown this to be true" doesn't mean that you actually have.

 

[BigDaddy4]

You said: "The Bible is clear one does not get a second chance after death, as is the mormon doctrine."
The Bible teaches NO such thing. There is indeed time between death and the judgment:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:18 - 19)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:5 - 6)

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

You conveniently left out 1 Peter 3:20 that talks specifically about the disobedient during the time Noah was building the ark.

1 Peter 4 is talking about those who are now dead had the gospel preached to them while they were still alive. It does not mean Jesus went back to those who are dead but did not accept what God revealed to them while they were alive. The rich man wanted to go back and warn his brothers. God said no, not going to happen. Also supported by Hebrew 9:27. Pretty clear when you take off the mormon false doctrine glasses.

 

[dzheremi]

Funny how out of line with Christianity Mormonism is on this issue...well, and even with Judaism, if the Psalms are to be believed:

Psalm 30:9 "What profit is there in my blood when I go down into the pit. Will the dust praise You? Will it declare Your truth"

The first litany of the Compline (retiring) prayers of the Agpeya (Coptic daily prayer book; emphasis added):

Behold, I am about to stand before the Just Judge terrified and trembling because of my many sins. For a life spent in pleasures deserves condemnation. But repent, O my soul, so long as you dwell on this earth, for inside the grave, dust does not praise. And among the dead, no one remembers, neither in hades, does anyone give thanks. Therefore arise from the slumber of laziness, and entreat the Savior, repenting and saying, “God, have mercy on me and save me.”

+++

As HH Pope Shenouda III put it in his sermon, "After death, there is no chance" (sorry for the music; I couldn't find a version with English subtitles without it):

I agree with HH that to present other than this is to make a mockery of the importance of repentance in this life, though I suppose doing so fits well with JS 'Daily repentance is not what pleases God' Smith. I would hope for his sake that he's right, seeing as how he's dead and probably did not repent of his lifetime of mocking God with his incredibly wrong teachings on many matters (including this one), but of course I have no reason to assume that he is and plenty of reason to assume the opposite, given that neither the Holy Bible or the teachings of the Church more generally support such an idea.

 

[He is the way]

Again, that's not the question. I don't even believe that Mormonism is a denomination of Christianity to begin with, so I would never approach my actual question in this manner, since it doesn't mean anything in this context that a non-Christian religion teaches things that are not in keeping with Christianity.



So that's a yes? It is a bad choice to be a Christian instead of a Mormon?



Hahaha. No you haven't. Just typing "I have shown this to be true" doesn't mean that you actually have.

Yes I have shown by the very words of Jesus Christ how He and the Father are one:

(New Testament | John 17:11)

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

It seems to me that sadly there are many who can not understand the words Jesus spoke.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Yes I have shown by the very words of Jesus Christ how He and the Father are one:

(New Testament | John 17:11)

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

It seems to me that sadly there are many who can not understand the words Jesus spoke.

Pot, meet kettle...

 

[He is the way]

Pot, meet kettle...

(New Testament | Matthew 7:11 - 21)

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Peter1000]

dzheremi says:

Behold, I am about to stand before the Just Judge terrified and trembling because of my many sins. For a life spent in pleasures deserves condemnation. But repent, O my soul, so long as you dwell on this earth, for inside the grave, dust does not praise. And among the dead, no one remembers, neither in hades, does anyone give thanks. Therefore arise from the slumber of laziness, and entreat the Savior, repenting and saying, “God, have mercy on me and save me.”

So do you believe like the SDA that when you die, you sleep until the resurrection?

As HH Pope Shenouda III put it in his sermon, "After death, there is no chance"

So are you saying that if a person goes their through their whole life and never hears the name Jesus Christ, and dies, that this person will be sent to hell, having no chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ?

given that neither the Holy Bible or the teachings of the Church more generally support such an idea.

Yes, we know that the early church was having trouble living the milk of the gospel for themselves here on the earth. Why would you think they would be interested in additional spiritual work for the dead (which is an exhausting work) which we call the meat of the gospel. At least we know the Corinthians rejected the meat and the additional commitments to the higher order. (1 Cor. 3:2) Therefore Paul says nothing of it in his epistles, because the people are not going to hear it.

 

[Peter1000]

You conveniently left out 1 Peter 3:20 that talks specifically about the disobedient during the time Noah was building the ark.

1 Peter 4 is talking about those who are now dead had the gospel preached to them while they were still alive. It does not mean Jesus went back to those who are dead but did not accept what God revealed to them while they were alive. The rich man wanted to go back and warn his brothers. God said no, not going to happen. Also supported by Hebrew 9:27. Pretty clear when you take off the mormon false doctrine glasses.

It says that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. How do you equate the spirits in prison to the people being taught in Noah's time?

Who are the spirits in prison that Jesus preached to?

 

[BigDaddy4]

(New Testament | Matthew 7:11 - 21)

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

It seems to me that sadly there are many who can not understand the words Jesus spoke.

Pot, meet kettle...

Random scripture postings without context only reinforces my comment...

 

[dzheremi]

So do you believe like the SDA that when you die, you sleep until the resurrection?

No. I take it from this question that you didn't watch the video of the sermon. It would be hard to have the SDA belief and also believe (as said there) that those who are in Hades awaiting the resurrection wish they could have even a moment of our lives so as to offer repentance. Who's wishing anything if they're in 'soul sleep' or whatever the SDA call it?

So are you saying that if a person goes their through their whole life and never hears the name Jesus Christ, and dies, that this person will be sent to hell, having no chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ?

No, I'm not saying that. I don't know where you're getting these ideas, but they're not from me or from anything HH said in that sermon. Saying there is no chance to change one's ways after death is not at all the same as saying those who died without hearing of Christ are condemned to hell. God is the judge, not anyone else. Not HH, not you, not me, certainly not JS or any other Mormon ever, etc. Only God.

Yes, we know that the early church was having trouble living the milk of the gospel for themselves here on the earth.

You don't know anything about the early Church in the first place.

Why would you think they would be interested in additional spiritual work for the dead (which is an exhausting work) which we call the meat of the gospel.

They weren't. Nobody in the early Church was a Mormon. The only groups who took any verse in the Bible to be about the necessity of baptizing dead people were gnostic weirdos who were unacceptable to everyone else. We've been over this several times already.

At least we know the Corinthians rejected the meat and the additional commitments to the higher order. (1 Cor. 3:2) Therefore Paul says nothing of it in his epistles, because the people are not going to hear it.

Oh look, another thing we've been over again and again, and yet you still pretend as though Mormonism has some revelatory knowledge on it. It doesn't. It never has and never will, just like it doesn't have any 'further light and knowledge' about anything else, either.

It's fine if you want to live in a fantasy world, Peter, but trying to drag Christianity into it with you just isn't going to work.

 

[He is the way]

Random scripture postings without context only reinforces my comment...

We have already been through the context many times. We do believe in the true God of the Bible. The way we live our lives and the fruits of the members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints show the pure love of Christ. It is my hope that people will remember Jesus Christ and help those in need. That they will be kind and gentle and do that which is right.

 

[BigDaddy4]

We have already been through the context many times. We do believe in the true God of the Bible. The way we live our lives and the fruits of the members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints show the pure love of Christ. It is my hope that people will remember Jesus Christ and help those in need. That they will be kind and gentle and do that which is right.

And many times it's been pointed out that if you really believed "in the true God of the Bible", you would not be defending mormonism and, hopefully, not a member of the mormon church.

So again, pot meet kettle...

It seems to me that sadly there are many who can not understand the words Jesus spoke.

You rely on the words of your false prophets and false doctrine, not the words of Jesus. It is you who does not understand the words Jesus spoke about false prophets, teachers, and doctrine.